Neil Armstrong to NASA: You Are an Embarassment

[Thaluikhain]

Keep NASA strong, in fact boost that crap up, and lets reach for the moon and beyond. We're ALWAYS going to have problems here to deal with, why halt scientific advancement and the possibility for extended life, terraforming, and the like just because we need to deal with every issue that arises first? Hell, for all we know, NASA could find some new fuel in space (I believe they already did on the Moon) and allow for American companies to expand there, causing a new "black gold" rush such as when the United States found major pockets of oil in the 1800's, possibly pushing us out of our debt and creating a new sustainable fuel supply.

I agree that there have been many discoveries made as part of the space programs, and there are many more to come (but resource exploitation off-world is quite a long way off)...however, NASA has been cut back to almost nothing anyway. For the last few years, it's been kept ticking over for little more reason than so the US can say it still has a space program. The ISS, for example, is little more than an expensive political gesture of unity. All sorts of things could be done with it, but although people are willing to fund it to an extent, that extent doesn't run to it being able to do anything useful.

A well-funded, properly run space program is useful. Rediverting funds (which are significant, even if the military wastes far more), also has merit. Wasting money on a program too lightly funded to do more than serve as a political token does not.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

So let me get this straight - a country that prides itself on capitalist democracy should have a socialist space program when they're still arguing socialist health care is a bad thing?

Home of the Brave...I guess the kind of bravery that's a kin to stupidity.

That made me laugh. It's true though, priorities people.

Yeah, America's debt is over 14 trillion! Let's spend money on going into space to do...

What exactly?

Apart from jingoistic pride, what exactly does America gain from this? We're talking large sums of money just to hit the atmosphere, so surely there needs to be some tangible gain. Especially to such a deeply capitalist country. Where's the business here? Where's the profit?

Weeeeeell, while I agree with your point about the silly amounts of debt the US is in (and the worse amounts of borrowing that it's still doing), I have to defend NASA a little. In space they send up loadsa things, but some of the more important ones are bacteria, diseases, biological tissue etc. In zero gravity, and in a pure vacuum, these things show properties and mutations that cannot be reproduced on earth. In short, they have helped us find pretty much every medical breakthrough in the last 30 or 40 years and now make up the foundation of breakthroughs to come.

NASA, and all other space programmes, employ the very finest minds in the world to tackle the hostile environment of space. So many of those scientific breakthroughs are now common features in our everyday life, but the necessity to invent them only ever came from the pressures and funding of the space programme.

So yeah, space exploration is good, and privatisation is bad for it, as all private companies have a shared interest in the results. Think about some of the really stupid "for-the-money" decisions that the games, sports,film or journalism industries have made, and think about the impact it will have on space travel. *sigh*

In the article it mentioned that astronauts wouldn't be prevented from going into space, but that they might have to go up on Russian shuttles. So to expand on my point, what is the benefit of having their own space program? The astronauts can still go up, the scientists still get their data, but America isn't bankrupting itself to send people to a station the Russians were sending people to as well.

To try an analogy, it's like when two people have to go to work at the same place. They live relatively near to each other and are the same distance from work as each other. They both drive there in individual cars, effectively wasting the fuel in one car. One of them falls on hard times, but instead of doing the sensible thing and just hitching a ride with the other, he insists everything's fine and keeps on wasting money he doesn't have, all because of pride.

I hope that kind of illustrates my point.

 

[BGH122]

there are a few more important obstacles in the American way of life that might need overcoming before we shell out billions to get a handful ... a fucking HANDFUL of us to space. we made our point, you did your work old man. lets fix the economy and homelessness and shit.

This.

This is not the time to be wasting billions on what amounts to petty rivalries with a long, long dead rival. The USSR is no more. Perestroika happened. The point has been made.

Now how about focussing on fixing the economy before we start talking about nearly worthless penis-measuring contests with other nations (especially nations that have worked to develop amicable relationships with the US since their face change).

In the article it mentioned that astronauts wouldn't be prevented from going into space, but that they might have to go up on Russian shuttles. So to expand on my point, what is the benefit of having their own space program? The astronauts can still go up, the scientists still get their data, but America isn't bankrupting itself to send people to a station the Russians were sending people to as well.

To try an analogy, it's like when two people have to go to work at the same place. They live relatively near to each other and are the same distance from work as each other. They both drive there in individual cars, effectively wasting the fuel in one car. One of them falls on hard times, but instead of doing the sensible thing and just hitching a ride with the other, he insists everything's fine and keeps on wasting money he doesn't have, all because of pride.

I hope that kind of illustrates my point.

It does and I agree.

Plus, it isn't even true that every discovery in medicine for the past few decades has been taking place in space. Was digitalis' active compound distilled in space? Nope. Was Ogawa's work with blood-oxygen-level dependence, leading to fMRI use, first created in space? Not a chance. Was... You get my point.

Space definitely does provide an interesting means of variable control which allows for studies that would otherwise be very hard, but it's unwise to dramatically overstate its usefulness to the sciences.

 

[Sunrider]

I couldn't give a rat's ass about who is the "leader" in some stupid space race. I just want some damn progress. Space is the future as I see it. How about an international effort to expand into space? Instead of having China, Russia and the US going at it by themselves, having to put money into coming to the same conclusions, they should team up, share their progress with each other, and build from each other's ideas.

I know, stupid idealism and I know that won't happen and all that.
But fuck you, it's SPACE! We should already be there! Damn you, dark ages!

 

[BGH122]

I couldn't give a rat's ass about who is the "leader" in some stupid space race. I just want some damn progress. Space is the future as I see it. How about an international effort to expand into space? Instead of having China, Russia and the US going at it by themselves, having to put money into coming to the same conclusions, they should team up, share their progress with each other, and build from each other's ideas.

I know, stupid idealism and I know that won't happen and all that.
But fuck you, it's SPACE! We should already be there! Damn you, dark ages!

And whist we're at it I want some damn robots with functional AI. I'm sick of speaking to regular, boring, fleshy people: I want my damn robot companion and I want it now!

 

[Yopaz]

It's not hard. They would have to utter 3 words. "Pay up now". America would either go to war with China to get out of paying debt or go completely bankrupt. If they did decide to go to war it would mean all influence America's ever had going down the drain.
Everyone would think of you as the bad guys, bad guys who needs to be stopped. Not a pleasant thought, is it?

This part made me giggle

Because Americas influence would certainly go down the drain because every man woman and child on the planet would swiftly be dead if America and China went into a full out war.

And if you think that would be just a death to america with those three lil words you are lieing to yourself, it would destroy pretty much the whole world economy, which is why no one has actually said it.

I never said it would not destroy the world. I said if China gets pissed off at USA for trying to keep them from starting a space program USA is screwed. Like you said, if China does demand their money back it fucks up the world economy. That should be an end to their space program mentioned in the way the post I quoted said it. Disagree?

 

[TheCommie12]

More national pride? the US already has to much. And also the main reason that dusting off(no pun intended) is that the space program cost a lot of money to run, and the American Government is already in enough debt.

and as to giving up to "rivals", The US treasury is mostly own by foreign nations, mainly China. so restarting the space program would be a horrible idea. As for Armstrong, I think is blinded by patriotism.

 

[Kenami]

Wow...on a different note I have never seen that video of Buzz punching that guy. Thanks for showing me that.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Though I do contest the idea that we should be focusing elsewhere. Creating a new shuttle program would give a large number of people jobs, across all sectors. People would need to design it, man it, and construct it. That is a lot of jobs for people that would help get the economy going again.

And what would be the use of these new shuttles? The moon. It has a large amount of Helium-3 that could be harvested for cleaner fuel here on earth. Make these shuttles large cargo vessels, then have them drag people and equipment to the moon (more investment with manpower and an economy) and bring back the goods to pay for it all.

Its a large LARGE plan that would take many years to come to fruition, but that is EXACTLY what the economy needs, not stupid stop-gap measures, but a long term goal, something to aspire to, THATS what armstrong was getting at. Back in the space race we had a GOAL to achieve, we had something to aspire to, to marvel at. What do we have now? Nothing.

And nothing to aspire to is exactly whats driving us into the ground.

Hmmm...when put in those terms, of employment drive and economic boost, mining the moon doesn't sound too absurd.

However, why go all the way to the moon in that way? There are causes closer to home that could do with massive government funding. Couldn't the US rally behind a drive to improve, say, healthcare, education, industry or the like? This would have the obvious benefit of helping with serious problems currently faced by the US.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Marketing.

Going to the moon and other less terrestrial objectives capture peoples imagination far, far better than healthcare.

You're not wrong there. *grumble*

I'll admit that the space program would have all sorts of unforeseen secondary benefits, but not as much as if those benefits were the primary function.

Though, of course, neither is going to happen, so it doesn't matter if my idea is more not-going to happen, I guess.

 

[Arif_Sohaib]

Ladies and gentlemen, announcing Rocky 7 staring Niel "I still want to go to space no matter how much it costs or how old I am" Armstrong.

 

[Volkov]

Nationalist pride, because that's what America needs more of.

This. Holy shit, how much more wrong could the guy be.

 

[DigitalSushi]

The Space Shuttle is old, fallible and downright dangerous.

Aren't the onboard computers powered by Pentium 2 processors still?

I saw Species 2 a few years back (yeah it was bad), but their Mars rocket had all sorts of company brands and logos painted on the side (kinda pointless since no one would see them, not the least wrong thing in that movie). It seems it will fall to the private sector, but aren't most of those "American" companies no longer owned by Americans?

The ironic thing is the computers are built by the Chinese.

Also the 2003 British built Mars Beagle 2 that was lost was powered by an Apple Mac G4, it became my Pro Mac friends badge of honour in PC discussion's until well... The Brits lost contact before it did anything of note.

 

[Yopaz]

It's not hard. They would have to utter 3 words. "Pay up now". America would either go to war with China to get out of paying debt or go completely bankrupt. If they did decide to go to war it would mean all influence America's ever had going down the drain.
Everyone would think of you as the bad guys, bad guys who needs to be stopped. Not a pleasant thought, is it?

This part made me giggle

Because Americas influence would certainly go down the drain because every man woman and child on the planet would swiftly be dead if America and China went into a full out war.

And if you think that would be just a death to america with those three lil words you are lieing to yourself, it would destroy pretty much the whole world economy, which is why no one has actually said it.

I never said it would not destroy the world. I said if China gets pissed off at USA for trying to keep them from starting a space program USA is screwed. Like you said, if China does demand their money back it fucks up the world economy. That should be an end to their space program mentioned in the way the post I quoted said it. Disagree?

Not in the slightest, I think the quote you were responding to makes hideo kojima seem like a normal, non paranoid guy!

I just enjoy MAD prospects is all!

Though I do contest the idea that we should be focusing elsewhere. Creating a new shuttle program would give a large number of people jobs, across all sectors. People would need to design it, man it, and construct it. That is a lot of jobs for people that would help get the economy going again.

And what would be the use of these new shuttles? The moon. It has a large amount of Helium-3 that could be harvested for cleaner fuel here on earth. Make these shuttles large cargo vessels, then have them drag people and equipment to the moon (more investment with manpower and an economy) and bring back the goods to pay for it all.

Its a large LARGE plan that would take many years to come to fruition, but that is EXACTLY what the economy needs, not stupid stop-gap measures, but a long term goal, something to aspire to, THATS what armstrong was getting at. Back in the space race we had a GOAL to achieve, we had something to aspire to, to marvel at. What do we have now? Nothing.

And nothing to aspire to is exactly whats driving us into the ground.

I agree that getting heium-3 would be beneficial and possibly more things of value, but it's impossible to say how much money or time it would take. What's for sure is that it would take a lot of money that's simply not there. To manage to do it there would have to be pulled money from everywhere. After all the current wars have ended it's a good idea since that's currently the biggest money drain.
However I would like to see what the consequences would have been if all the money used in the past decade for war had been used on the space program.

 

[jmiller1980]

It's all fine and dandy to cancel programs. That's one of the few things that the American government is doing right now. And yes, the shuttles were getting old and dangerous and it was time to phase them out. However, our wonderful government has gone right past the "phase" part of phasing out and just skipped to the "out" part. And for no solid reason. One of the massive benefits that the original space race had besides bolstering "American pride" and giving our then-rivals the finger was that it created jobs. Those who are up for trashing the US economy and saying that we cannot at this time afford to fund another space program need to consider that a big part of why the world economy is tanking right now is because employers, in their infinite wisdom (not really) have decided not to hire. Creation of a new harder core space program designed to put more than just a couple of extremely brave men and women into space could generate a whole new industry in terms of vessel construction, space station and satellite construction and maintenance, and space tourism. And that's not even to mention scientific and military applications. In other words, the space program might cost buckets of money, but with a cooperative effort between the government and the private sector it could be the thing that helps to save the economy, just as the war industry helped drag the US out of the Great Depression and how the modern consumerist lifestyle of Americans has helped to stimulate growth in what were once considered third-world holes like China and India. Simple math. More jobs equals more money flowing equals economic stimulation.

 

[GoddyofAus]

Two pointless Wars and they want to neuter NASA. Never let it be said that American Politicians are dumb shits.