New US ISP sanctioned/controlled piracy database will mean the end to internet privacy.

[KaiserKnight]

This might be a bit off topic but, I've always wondered how the economy or even the world would be today without the internet.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Well that's a dumb plan. People will just move their websites and fileshareing to different locations that aren't being monitored. If you post a guard at a den of scum and villainy the scum and villainy is going to find a new place to hang out, just because they are "bad guys" doesn't make them stupid.

 

[Justanewguy]

but any time a government tries to shut down illegal activities (piracy, downloading of child pornography)

now when the fuck has someone made a thread saying "I believe child porn should be legalized"

That's not what happens. A thread pops up discussing how a government (say, Germany for example) is introducing a new law that will allow them to track and crack down on these criminals harder and quicker than ever before.

Instantaneously, some brainless fuck posts to the thread babbling some nonsense about "freedom of speech/information" and that the implementation of this law will inevitably lead to a fascist state where no one has any rights or freedoms.

That, or they pull out the most worthless quote of all time; "I do not believe in what you say, but I will defend your right to say it." Thus completely disregarding that the material violates the basic human rights of the victims and thus should not be subject to the "freedom of speech" clause that morons on here like to cluck about ever so much.

While normally I would agree with your comment of the "I do not believe in what you say..." being a poor argument, and one that the Escapist falls back on too often, I do believe that in this case you're incorrect. In this current day and age privacy is becoming tougher and tougher to defend, and is being infringed upon more and more. We really need to start pushing back on the privacy front, or we will see continued efforts to infringe upon our private lives. Your home, your car, your computer are all parts of the same. While I may not like that a person can transport marijuana in their car, I do appreciate that he is protected from unwarranted search and seizure. The principal is that protection that is afforded to all of us. Sure, I may not be doing anything illegal in my car, but I still don't want to be pulled over by a cop simply because I looked at him wrong. The same concept is true of my computer. I may not like piracy, but I do appreciate the that person is protected from unwarranted search and seizure.

In this case, there is no probable cause necessary, which is why I have a problem with it. I don't mind cracking down on internet crime, but I do have a problem on removing the probable cause necessity.

 

[matsugawa]

I actually had this happen to me just a few weeks ago. I don't pirate, and I'm firmly against it, but that doesn't stop others from taking advantage of my wi-fi (which didn't have any sort of passkey set up because of a re-tweaking of its setup I had to do some months back). I get a postcard in the mail from my cable provider (also my web) telling me to go to a website.

I'd been issued with a DMCA notice from NBC Universal because they'd tracked a torrent download of KickAss from my IP Address.
I don't have any torrent clients. My roommate does, but it's a different client than the one they mentioned, she hasn't used it in 2 years, and she had no desire to see Kick Ass.
I felt weird having to answer the message (which they tell you to do if you think there's a mistake); I thought, "What am I going to say? 'No, I didn't. Honest!'" All I ended up doing was explaining the situation with my Wi-Fi (which now has a passkey, don't know why I left it off for so long), and pointing out that I subscribed to both Hulu Plus and Netflix, on which Kick Ass is available for streaming. I practically told them, "Why would I download it if I can stream it anytime through a service I pay monthly for?" I've gotten no reply.
Now that I've read that article, I guess I'll just wait and see, since it takes 6 notices for them to take action. Still, they've gotten a response from me, which pretty much puts me on their list, despite only providing an avenue for someone else who couldn't be bothered to throw down ten bucks for a DVD. I can't help but feel like I've dug my own grave just by offering a defense, albeit a perfectly valid one.

Just because I'm a copyright advocate doesn't mean I agree with it completely. It's got flaws, and DRM and the DMCA are among the biggest.

 

[fulano]

Well that's a dumb plan. People will just move their websites and fileshareing to different locations that aren't being monitored. If you post a guard at a den of scum and villainy the scum and villainy is going to find a new place to hang out, just because they are "bad guys" doesn't make them stupid.

Will it matter? Oversight can always flag a website's address if they don't like it---no matter what kind of services it provides--and then someone will send you an e-mail telling you to watch your manners.

Wanna hear something truly scary? There will come a point when watching all these growing data exchanges becomes such a masive issue to do in any effective manner (b/c it won't be used solely to monitor illegal activity) for normal people that they will have to turn to the only known existing model of software doing monitoring of this magnitude...like it is already done in the stock exchange (read about black box trading or algo trading) where they have software programs--algorithms--that make elaborate decisions based on incoming information that is so freaking fast, and also changes so fast, that we cannot possibly tell what is going on ourselves.

Yup. Oversight won't even be handled by people. And this kind of system is known to have already contributed to one big fuckup before (see flash crash event of May 6, 2010). Woe us...

May the brix be shat.

 

[Freeze_L]

It won't bother you from a practical standpoint if you don't illegally download.

It can still bother you on principle regardless.
_

Men can still care about Women's Rights. Straight people can still care about Gay Rights. Human beings can still care about Animal Rights.

Why do you feel that in this one area people need to be directly affected to give a shit, when they don't have to be in any other?

Did you just draw a parallel between piracy and women's/gay rights? Um, alright... that's an interesting analogy. Piracy is kind of illegal you know. Last time I checked, it wasn't a basic human right like, say what women's/gay rights and such.

Right to Privacy, is a human right in the US as well as a declared human right by the UN under Article 12 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Arbitrary interference with correspondence is exactly what is happening when your internet provider reserves the right to monitor you private data transmissions.

The right to privacy was also established under the Fourteenth Amendment of The United States. This really is a big deal. This is allowing you IP to RECORD your PRIVATE TRANSMISSIONS because of GENERAL SUSPICION. this runs straight over any concept of due process and privacy.

 

[Piesadamus]

oh noes! an attempt to enforce the laws!

Going after people who break the law is an invasion of privacy!


But seriously, this just seems like the internet version of traffic light cameras. If you don't break the laws, there is nothing to worry about here.

Except in this case, the traffic light cameras are perma-record 1080p video cameras. And instead of being at the traffic lights, they're strewn across your house and inside your [room of private happy time].

 

[Twilight_guy]

Well that's a dumb plan. People will just move their websites and fileshareing to different locations that aren't being monitored. If you post a guard at a den of scum and villainy the scum and villainy is going to find a new place to hang out, just because they are "bad guys" doesn't make them stupid.

Will it matter? Oversight can always flag a website's address if they don't like it---no matter what kind of services it provides--and then someone will send you an e-mail telling you to watch your manners.

Wanna hear something truly scary? There will come a point when watching all these growing data exchanges becomes such a masive issue to do in any effective manner (b/c it won't be used solely to monitor illegal activity) for normal people that they will have to turn to the only known existing model of software doing monitoring of this magnitude...like it is already done in the stock exchange (read about black box trading or algo trading) where they have software programs--algorithms--that make elaborate decisions based on incoming information that is so freaking fast, and also changes so fast, that we cannot possibly tell what is going on ourselves.

Yup. Oversight won't even be handled by people. And it's already known to have contributed to one big fuckup before (see flash crash event of May 6, 2010).

May the brix be shat.

I'm a computer Scientist, all i can say is... no. That's not how that works. Scientists have been working with tremendous and continually changing data-sets for some time now (Like I dunno real time monitoring of the weather) and have been able to handle the data. Even then if the data is too fast for humans to analysis, you know like with the mountains of data that Amazons collect on purchases everyday, AI work can process data into a useful form (such as predicting what items you're likely to buy). Yeah I know you're going to shout and moan because I suck at making arguments but I know you're wrong on the technical aspect.

As for your Orwellian prediction... So what. This isn't the government. They can't prosecute you. This isn't bigger brother this is private corporations. The worst they can do is change your service. If they abuse this then it will lead to lawsuits and the government really will be involved. What happens then I dunno but I'm less afraid of ISP threatening me since they already collect your information they just don't usually do anything with it.

I've learned to be cautious on my opinions here since everyone already blows a gasket at ever new story when nothing comes of 99% of them or people cease to care once it goes into effect. I appreciate watchdogs flying off the handle to protect rights but if they have the right to predict doom every ten second for great justice then I should have the right to be level headed and wait to see what actually comes of a story.

 

[JoJo]

That's the majority of the Escapist community for you, Sober Thal. They love to mock Fox News at every turn when ever games are brought up (HUR HURR THIS GAME IS GOING TO LET YOU SHOOT CIVILIANS FOX NEWS IS GONNA BE SOOO MAD HAHAHA) but any time a government tries to shut down illegal activities (piracy, downloading of child pornography) on the internet they twist logic and use slippery slope fallacies until their arms fall off. Why? Because the board is full of pirates and pedophiles trying to equate their rights to "privacy" (They define privacy as being able to do whatever, whenever they want) with other legitimate movements in an attempt to justify their wrongdoings, and quite frankly it makes me sick to no end.

Piracy is stealing, period. Companies protecting their property is the only conclusion to this situation, and even though this might not be the best way to go about it it's certainly a step in the right direction.

No offence but if you hate the users on this forum so much, why are you still here? This isn't the first time I've seen you accuse the members here of being child abusers or worse and ignoring legitimate arguments against this kind of law, such as the ISP's having the power to cut off access without any legal proof of the accused actually pirating. If you want to support this law then fine, it's your right to have an opinion, but don't try to scare-monger opponents into silence by associating them with criminals.

In all 3000 posts plus time here I have seen just one person defending child pornography, this isn't exactly a forum-full of sickos.

 

[Xanthious]

Well that's a dumb plan. People will just move their websites and fileshareing to different locations that aren't being monitored. If you post a guard at a den of scum and villainy the scum and villainy is going to find a new place to hang out, just because they are "bad guys" doesn't make them stupid.

They already are migrating away from Bit Torrent in a fashion. Darknets are becoming more and more popular. Usenet is still around and in many ways much much better than Bit Torrent if you don't mind paying a small monthly fee and doing a bit of work. On top of that people in large cities that pirate rarely need to do so from their own IP. Then if you are dead set on using Bit Torrent anyway from your own IP there are programs in place to mask your actions and they do a damn fine job of it.

So yeah they will catch a few small fish in this big net they are throwing out but the core of the people they are looking to stop are already three steps ahead of them and soon as these methods become more and more mainstream the rest of the more casual pirates will catch up making this move almost totally impotent.

 

[General Vagueness]

Did you guys even read this?

"There will be an independent technical review. The agreement requires that an independent technical expert review methodologies used by content owners to detect alleged content theft and by ISPs to identify and forward alerts to applicable subscribers," TorrentFreak was told.
__________

"ISPs will hold this information, as they do today. Please also note that no personal information about subscribers will be shared with rights holders without the required legal process being completed," he told us.
__________

In June the MPAA and RIAA announced a "ground-breaking" deal with all the major Internet providers in the United States. In an attempt to deter online piracy, a third-party company will monitor BitTorrent and other public file-sharing networks and collect the IP-addresses of alleged infringers.

The ISPs will then notify these offenders and tell them that their behavior is unacceptable. After six warnings the ISP may then take a variety of repressive measures, which include slowing down the offender?s connection.

With those restrictions, I'm not worried. Even if it was a lot more "all-out", they're only going after torrenting services. You can call me when they crack onion routing and start closely monitoring people using it, maybe then I'll be worried. There's a good chance I won't be though because someone will have probably come up with another method of Internet anonymity by then that's better and/or more advanced.
The nice thing about encryption, or the not-so-nice thing about it, is that you can basically run it with it forever, coming up with new and different methods and algorithms and code, and something similar applies to data transfer in general-- you can keep coming up with new protocols until the cows come home, and without the software to connect using a particular protocol, there's not much you can do in the way of intercepting data. Until or unless they start watching everyone's personal traffic and checking it extensively for anything hidden and stay on top of basically all encryption and software development everywhere, people will be able to wall off their side of the road, so to speak, and move things unseen.
Anyway, though, privacy is mostly a thing of the past. Anyone that posted here, and probably anyone reading this in the near future, is already much too "on the grid" to have real privacy.
I could go on but it might be better saved for elsewhere.

 

[Therumancer]

Well, this is one of the big problems with the system in the US right now, a lot of our protections and freedoms only limit the goverment, but don't control what private citizens and businesses can do to other private citizens and businesses.

An example of this would be how your free speech rights don't apply on privatly run forums and websites even though they probably should, it makes little sense for a private individual or company to have more power over people and the abillity to do things that are forbidden to elected officials. Really when our rights were set up in the US nobody envisioned anything like "Ther Internet" and all of this digital distribution stuff, or a comparirive handfull of private individuals and interests controlling mass communications that people rely on.

This kind of action presents a threat, because it's not the goverment but voluntary actions taken by private interests, just as how The Escapist's staff, have more power to limit your free speech rights than the officials you elected to office.

Now of course there are all kinds of differant points of view on this, and I do understand the entire issue of the rights of a platform holder to control what they themselves own, which is what means that there are no easy solutions here. The goverment is also slowly catching onto this and just as private business interests influance the goverment, we're beginning to see politicians work through private businesses to do things they can't otherwise achieve through the goverment. Nowadays a politician with an actual idealogy that he follows (along with what he might be corrupt about) might accept money to do something for a business, but might also promises in lieu of money or in combination with it, basically if a politician does something the goverment can do for a private business or organization, that business or orgainization will do something in return for the politician. Some of these talking heads who actually believe their "oh, why won't you think of the children" rhetoric are beginning to realize that while the goverment can't directly regular content, it can convince non-govermental entities to do it for them. Heck, saying "we'll give you govermental funding or tax breaks if you put this policy into force" is kind of a gray area to begin with.

At any rate it's not surprising that those interested in IP rights have gotten smart and have realized that they can approach the issue indirectly.

Personally I think we need some rulings to be made preventing private individuals and organizations from wielding a lot of the same kinds of powers forbidden to the goverment specifically to deal with this kind of thing.

Interestingly this kind of development was forseen by various "dark future" writers over the years. If you read the backstories this kind of private control is what lead to corperations and businesses rendering the goverment less important than they are in a very real sense, and to things like omni-present lethal security measures like "Black Ice" designed to kill people trying to access information they don't have legal access to. Granted it takes a while to snowball into the state you see in the novels with the cyber-hackers fighting lethal viruses in virtual reality, but this is very much where such things were supposed to begin. The big question is that before these kinds of books become even more eerily prophetic, will those warnings cause people to step in and shut it down before it can snowball? I have no idea, but sadly I don't have that much faith in humanity.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

You know, if you didn't pirate things, you wouldn't have to worry about it. Saying you are concerned with this sort-of thing is more or less admitting to piracy, since it wouldn't bother you in the slightest if you didn't illegally download things.

This. Its like people that ***** about speed cameras....if you dont break the speed limit then you have nothing to worry about. What did people think? They would continue to let people steal other peoples property and do nothing? Although i do love how people are getting really uptight about it all. lol. I liked that some one brought up freedom of information. lol.

 

[fulano]

Well that's a dumb plan. People will just move their websites and fileshareing to different locations that aren't being monitored. If you post a guard at a den of scum and villainy the scum and villainy is going to find a new place to hang out, just because they are "bad guys" doesn't make them stupid.

Will it matter? Oversight can always flag a website's address if they don't like it---no matter what kind of services it provides--and then someone will send you an e-mail telling you to watch your manners.

Wanna hear something truly scary? There will come a point when watching all these growing data exchanges becomes such a masive issue to do in any effective manner (b/c it won't be used solely to monitor illegal activity) for normal people that they will have to turn to the only known existing model of software doing monitoring of this magnitude...like it is already done in the stock exchange (read about black box trading or algo trading) where they have software programs--algorithms--that make elaborate decisions based on incoming information that is so freaking fast, and also changes so fast, that we cannot possibly tell what is going on ourselves.

Yup. Oversight won't even be handled by people. And it's already known to have contributed to one big fuckup before (see flash crash event of May 6, 2010).

May the brix be shat.

I'm a computer Scientist, all i can say is... no. That's not how that works. Scientists have been working with tremendous and continually changing data-sets for some time now (Like I dunno real time monitoring of the weather) and have been able to handle the data. Even then if the data is too fast for humans to analysis, you know like with the mountains of data that Amazons collect on purchases everyday, AI work can process data into a useful form (such as predicting what items you're likely to buy). Yeah I know you're going to shout and moan because I suck at making arguments but I know you're wrong on the technical aspect.

As for your Orwellian prediction... So what. This isn't the government. They can't prosecute you. This isn't bigger brother this is private corporations. The worst they can do is change your service. If they abuse this then it will lead to lawsuits and the government really will be involved. What happens then I dunno but I'm less afraid of ISP threatening me since they already collect your information they just don't usually do anything with it.

I've learned to be cautious on my opinions here since everyone already blows a gasket at ever new story when nothing comes of 99% of them or people cease to care once it goes into effect. I appreciate watchdogs flying off the handle to protect rights but if they have the right to predict doom every ten second for great justice then I should have the right to be level headed and wait to see what actually comes of a story.

I'm not talking about mere monitoring like in the weather, but in both monitoring and making decisions. What I'm saying is that at some point the need to enact some kind of policy on those being monitored, which can only be a lot giving the growing number of people using computers, will force them to use better tools, and a known existing model for that particular task is the stock exchange where both monitoring and decision making is being carried out as we speak...unless you argue that algo trading isn't real in which case we're done here.

Also, what you don't seem to understand is that private corporations can enforce policy themselves, that's why they have lobbyists to pass their policies into law--just ask the chamber of commerce, the gun lobby, the tobacco lobby, the pharmaceutical lobby, the HMO lobby, etc.; This isn't a conspiracy, it's just the game being played, plain and simple.

Look, I'm open to getting schooled here, but as far as I can tell you haven't made a convincing argument as of how I am wrong yet. I'm not blowing a gasket or getting belligerent with you, so let's do this, shall we?

 

[viranimus]

Well, my concern here is that we are taking and considering giving valuable data to be monitored by the same sort of inept jackasses that have built the current economic state?

Ok, I get it and I think everyone does. No ones life is significant enough to merit being watched. No one cares. However, the simple fact is, the US has infinitely more pressing problems right now than acting as a police force for corporate interests and using legislative action to trample on the rights of individuals so as to continue to protect the profit margins of the people who have put us in this position in the first place. Really thats all this boils down to. Vested corporate interests are using their profits to buy out the government that is supposed to protect the people, so as to ensure continued and increased revenue streams.

The hilarious thing is, that even with as painfully obvious as this is, there are still people who are so naive that they honestly think supporting these companies is the right thing to do, and is a part of the American way. This illusion that these corporations have been trying to cram down the publics throat for over a century in this country that The people need to be proud of corporations because they came from people just like you, and you defend their rights because maybe, just maybe, someday you can join them too. That is a lie that would make even the shadiest snake oil salesman feel guilt and shame. That is not the America I was taught to love. That was not the America that once stood not only as a world superpower, but as a gleaming beacon of what was right with humanity. That is an America Of the corporation, For the stockholders and by every last dollar that can be wrung from your broken, worn out and abused body. I have had enough of and do not want any more of that America.

I would say it makes me sick, but its been going on so long now that my sense of taste has been desensitized to it.

 

[Jake the Snake]

I have a hard time feeling angry about this at all. People shouldn't be torrenting stuff in the first place. You pay for entertainment you want. That's how it's always worked. No amount of disagreement with how much you think you SHOULD pay or resent justifies not paying for it. You pay to see movies. You pay to own books. You PAY to play games (except the ones that are free to begin with). You PAY to have music. Just because everything is in digital format now doesn't mean the rules change.

 

[Xanthious]

This. Its like people that ***** about speed cameras....if you dont break the speed limit then you have nothing to worry about. What did people think? They would continue to let people steal other peoples property and do nothing? Although i do love how people are getting really uptight about it all. lol. I liked that some one brought up freedom of information. lol.

Well since you don't seem to value your privacy how about you post your browsing history, maybe your emails for the past few months, and say the contents of your downloads folder. I mean unless you are doing something wrong you should have no problem with that right?

 

[Zodka]

Worst of it is, it's not just about privacy. I admit to using Bit Torrent a lot, but all the things I use it for are for my class in college. We have huge files that we have to download and use in able to pass the class, and if we didn't use Bit Torrent it would take so long that by the time they'd finish it'd be time for the next class and we wouldn't have anything done.
If this happens then not only would we not be able to get our files in time, but we wouldn't even be able to use the internet if we torrent, either.
Now, should this happen, tell me how we can remedy this without going against the ISPs, and not having to use anymore money?

 

[PinochetIsMyBro]

I don't care about this. I only download games, and only to see if they're any good. I buy the ones that are, and delete the ones that aren't.

Netflix for movies and iTunes for songs. I've never gotten any cease and desist letters from video game companies, so I'm probably in the clear.

If they try to do anything shady with my personal information I'll murder them in cold blood along with their family pets, but until then I simply can't be bothered to care.