Next-Gen Tech Allows for Massive Scale RTS Combat

Cognimancer

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Next-Gen Tech Allows for Massive Scale RTS Combat


Advanced technology from AMD means that strategy games will soon be able to support thousands of individually-simulated units at a time.

Real-time strategy games like Starcraft often have a strange sense of scale, where even the largest battles only have a few dozen combatants. This is partially for balance reasons, but also because our computers can only simulate so much at once. Technology marches on, though, and new innovations are starting to make hardware-induced unit caps a thing of the past. A new engine called Nitrous, using AMD's Mantle tool, is powerful enough to simulate battles with over 5000 units, each with moderately complex AI and physics. And this is only the beginning.

Let's get technical for a moment. Computers have a CPU and a GPU; the CPU generally handles math while the GPU does graphics. We have CPUs and GPUs that are really powerful, but they're two separate units, and the bottleneck comes into play when they need to communicate with each other. Mantle essentially removes (or greatly widens) that bottleneck: all your CPU cores can talk to the GPU at the same time, making it possible to do some really complex simulations.

In terms of games, that means developers will be able to have thousands of AI or physics-driven objects on the screen. An RTS demo called Starswarm [http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/14/oxide-star-swarm-real-time-strategy-mantle-demo/] shows off the power of this new tech with a massive space battle; the demo ran at a choppy 13 frames per second on conventional hardware, but Mantle more than tripled that. It's not just for strategy games, either: an upcoming update for Battlefield 4 will integrate Mantle tech to increase performance by up to 45 percent. If this catches on, this technology alone could provide developers with a bigger boost in power than any "next-gen" innovations currently available.

Update: Now with video!

Source: Engadget [http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/14/oxide-star-swarm-real-time-strategy-mantle-demo/]

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Soviet Heavy

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What about the Total War series? That has been able to run battles with upwards of 40000 soldiers by now?
 

kurokotetsu

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Soviet Heavy said:
What about the Total War series? That has been able to run battles with upwards of 40000 soldiers by now?
WHile I'm not the expert in Total War series, I've been playing with Shogun 2 lately. And while there are indeed large battles, there aren't individual units that much. There are all those soldeirs, but 100 or 150 of them act at the same time, in almost the same way, doing almost the same actions. Each soldeir is more a particle in a body than anything else, so actually there are things like only 50 or 60 real units (although fairly complex ones).

If this is true, well, these should be each doing it's own thing. And while asweome in some part, I'm not sure it is indeed that important. Why? Because even if the computer can manage it,we humans can't. We use the units as a mass in huge games (like in AoE II or TOtal War) or micromanage in games with smaller counts (Starcraft or Warcraft). SO adding units, well, it is impressive in a technical sense, well I'm not sure it will be altering the RTS scene taht much (well bigger battles, but the playstyle still will look the same). The demo looked amazing, yes, but unless it is multiplayer, those xtra numbers won't add much I think.
 

Vaccine

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I opened this piece thinking it was going to be a console company or console dev spewing bullshit because they're people who scream next-gen the loudest.

Surprised/10.
 

newwiseman

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Let's get technical for a moment. Computers have a CPU and a GPU; the CPU generally handles math while the GPU does graphics. We have CPUs and GPUs that are really powerful, but they're two separate units, and the bottleneck comes into play when they need to communicate with each other. Mantle essentially removes (or greatly widens) that bottleneck: all your CPU cores can talk to the GPU at the same time, making it possible to do some really complex simulations.
To say nothing of the homogenous memory that allows the CPU and GPU to both read a write directly to the same RAM instead of wasting cycles moving data from one to the other, and then back again.

The whole evolution of AMD's APU project has been nice to watch, great to see it paying off.
 

Coakle

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This will be cool. I'm imagining large scale battles, where where hills and entrenchment are being lost and taken in real time. A strategy games that have lines for troops to fall back and regroup is my dream game.

I love RTS games, but it always bothered me that most encounters ended when one side completely annihilated the other. Finally getting battles that breathe will be great.
 

Erttheking

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OH COME ON! I suck so much at RTS games I can't even handle a hundred units, how the flying fuck am I supposed to command five thousand?
 

Xan Krieger

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I hate how Starcraft keeps being mentioned when Supreme Commander could have a population limit of 1000 each for 8 players (yes buildings counted against it and if you built walls you could really cut into it but that leaves room for 800-900 units per side). In terms of scale Starcraft is nothing, it's tiny armies. Take Men of War Assault Squad where you'll easily have hundreds of independent units or Sins of a Solar Empire with hundreds of ships per side. Starcraft, while a great RTS that I've put a lot of hours into, does not belong in conversations about scale.
 

William Dickbringer

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my question is this how will this handle on my nividia card are we talking like tress fx in tomb raider or are we talking slight chug?
 

kajinking

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Saw the demo and my was truly amazed (loved the little ships blasting away with both their forwards and rear guns) but while this seems all exciting and I love anything that advances PC gaming I really am not that familiar when it comes to all the tech details.

Could someone who understands it better tell me if this type of stuff will require a massive upgrade in hardware to work or if it just makes what's their more efficent?
 

Xeorm

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kajinking said:
Saw the demo and my was truly amazed (loved the little ships blasting away with both their forwards and rear guns) but while this seems all exciting and I love anything that advances PC gaming I really am not that familiar when it comes to all the tech details.

Could someone who understands it better tell me if this type of stuff will require a massive upgrade in hardware to work or if it just makes what's their more efficent?
Primarily, it mainly looks like it's allowing for computers to really use all their cores that processors have been being built with. At least that's my take on it. I know that in general, partly due to just how much more difficult it can be to program for more cores and partly the general lack of computers with multiple cores, most games aren't designed to actually make use of more than one or two cores.

That wouldn't be so bad, except that most of our processor improvements in the last bit of time have been in multi-core processors; getting processors to run much faster has run into many technical problems.

Though, plenty of it is also the video card manufacturers developing the tools to interface with their cards more directly, rather than relying more on other, more neutral companies ala directX or openGL. Which is very cool imo. Those GPUs are amazing if used properly; something that isn't done too much so far. Very complicated things to work with sometimes.
 

Jadak

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The focus on Mantle here is perhaps a bit misleading..

Worth noting that Nitrous while yes, Mantle pushes the potential a further, Nitrous being a big step forward is not dependent upon Mantle. It was in fact originally developed for DirectX and than ported to Mantle, and is still looking pretty impressive even if you don't have an AMD card.

Here's the only reference to current performance data I could find: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/98295-amd-tech-day-kaveri-mantle-slides/

In any case, supposedly we'll be seeing Steam Benchmarks at some point this month, looking forward to some solid data.