No 'Him' or 'Her' in Preschool. Wait, what?

Terminate421

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This reminds me of the people who suspended my teacher's preschooler son because he was playing army (This was due to the army having guns and thus, "Promoting Violence"). Its completely natural for boys to do that, in fact, I can't think of a single boy ever who hasn't played Army at least once.


I understand fully at that age, many things can determine their future, but forcing it is unneccessary.
 

HalfTangible

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Snowy Rainbow said:
HalfTangible said:
It's the exact same... but not the same
Nice argument. Very firm in its stance.
Wow.

Just... WOW.

1) You did notice i said that was (EDIT: BASED ON) the OPPOSITION'S argument, right? Or did you go ahead and assume i was a bigoted asshole?
2) If you would like me to explain the argument in detail, all you need to do is ask.
 

Jakub324

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Blergh. I think this is a step too far. Stereotypes are not dominantly present in real life, at least not where I live. These measures are not necessary
 

Snowy Rainbow

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HalfTangible said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
HalfTangible said:
It's the exact same... but not the same
Nice argument. Very firm in its stance.
Wow.

Just... WOW.

1) You did notice i said that was the OPPOSITION'S argument, right? Or did you go ahead and assume i was a bigoted asshole?
2) If you would like me to explain the argument in detail, all you need to do is ask.
I don't care what side of the argument something comes from. It made no sense and I pointed out as much.

Unfortunately I don't really wanna go back and forth with you any more. I've got a lot to do. So enjoy your day.
 

Zyntoxic

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pubbing said:
Zyntoxic said:
Men can carry children and women can theoretically (i'm not sure if this has been done though) impregnate other womens' eggs. This is science people, and we have it, and with it anything is possible.
WTF!?!?!?!?

'slaps with newspaper on nose' NO!

Eggs can not fertilize each other. You need a sperm to do that. Women do not have sperm so this can not happen.

How do you get the baby inside of the man? Does this occur naturally somehow? No you have to create a cavity and put it in there, then you have to feed and oxygenize this baby through tubes because I have never herd of a man being able to form a placenta or umbilical cord before.

I hate to break up your fantasy but that movie where Arnold Schwarzenegger carries a baby isn't real. Movies are just pretend buddy.
it is not about the movie, the men carrying babies have actually been done but it is a rather uncommon procedure, and theoretically you just need 2 parts dna to make a baby so it is very much possible and has been done with rats (as mentioned I'm unsure about humans going through the same procedure) but it is the same basic idea as cloning.

I'd love to give you the actual articles I'm referring to, but a) they are in swedish, but I'm sure one can find something in english as well, but b) I'm in quite a rush to get home from work, another time perhaps?
 

DazBurger

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Zyntoxic said:
-Ubersnip

Men can carry children
Reaaaaaaally now? Do you have some source on that or are you just spewing that out of nowhere?


[Edit] And don't excuse it with the article being swedish, gimmie!
 

Amishdemon

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I disagree with the children's books depicting homosexual couples becuase homosexuality is biologically not normal and I personally want as many of our children to reproduce and evolutionarily advance our species as possible.
 

Ickorus

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Snowy Rainbow said:
HalfTangible said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
HalfTangible said:
And how is that different from saying 'I like girls'?
Not all girls have vaginas.
YES, they do -_- that's what being a girl MEANS.

No, it DOESN'T mean anything else but it DOES mean that.
And the women born with two X chromosomes and no vagina (or penis)? They are... what? Exactly? I guess they don't get to call themselves female. Sucks to be them. Nope, no matter how much their brain chemistry and mind tell them they are female, no matter how much they look like what they consider female - nope!

You better go rewrite all the medical textbooks, for you'll find sex is indeed NOT defined solely by sex organ in any of them.

That you view gender on such a shallow level sedans me to no end.
Quite a lot of men only like girls (In the sexual context) when they have vaginas, im one of those men.

Im not sure whether you're just flamebaiting now because you're being very aggressive and very close-minded for someone who's making an argument about equality.
 

lord.jeff

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Not a bad idea for the most part, taken to an extreme at points like with the book selection I think you need variety. It well be fun to see how the kids turn out.
 

Scrubiii

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"They even try to get rid of the words "him" & "her" (han/hon in swedish) and replace it with a made-up word."

My first thought was "Schlee"

Futurama references aside, this sounded like a great idea up until the point where they stopped using "him" and "her". Removing gender stereotypes is one thing, pretending gender doesn't exist is something completely different.
 

TheDooD

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I think they should let kids be kids. They REALLY don't care about him / her bullshit anyway. All they want to do is play, eat, sleep, shit and maybe fight. Forcing this gender neutrality is no better then forcing gender roles. Kids don't really care about type of shit until they're like 9-12. My Friend and I grew up around girls he had 3 sisters his parents and I had a single mom. So we both were around girls for a solid 10-15. We didn't fall into gender roles it better made us respect women that they are hard workers and can do what they want.

If girls wants to learn to cook good its NOT a gender role nor is it a bad thing. It's basically survival both men and women need to learn how to cook because it's a needed skill in real life. It costs too much to buy fast food all the time and if you're a picky eater its better off you cook what you want anyway. The same with cleaning its NOT a gender role both need to learn to have good cleaning habits and starting them young is a good thing. Keeping yourself and what's around you clean are needed for good hygiene it doesn't undermine a sex because you're teaching them how to neat.

I'm not gonna get started on the books....
 

TheAceTheOne

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Sneaky Paladin said:
A bit over the top yes, and I see how SOME fairy tales could reinforce stereotypes like girls are princesses to be saved men are heroes but they may have taken it to far.
My girlfriend has saved me from a lot. Heh, my life is totally the reverse of this.

On topic: So, they think they can do this crap, eh? Equality on this level isn't equality. It's bullshit.

Let kids be kids, don't force them to think of equality and him/her.
 

HalfTangible

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Snowy Rainbow said:
HalfTangible said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
HalfTangible said:
It's the exact same... but not the same
Nice argument. Very firm in its stance.
Wow.

Just... WOW.

1) You did notice i said that was the OPPOSITION'S argument, right? Or did you go ahead and assume i was a bigoted asshole?
2) If you would like me to explain the argument in detail, all you need to do is ask.
I don't care what side of the argument something comes from. It made no sense and I pointed out as much.

Unfortunately I don't really wanna go back and forth with you any more. I've got a lot to do. So enjoy your day.
I'll tell you anyway, since you apparently have grossly misinterpreted my response.

A major argument against discrimination based on sexuality is that sexuality is ingrained in our minds and chemical make up, right? That's the very definition of a physical condition: it exists as part of our physical make-up (as opposed to say immaturity or racism) In this case, the brain and the distribution of our hormones is the physical condition. THAT is what that argument is based on.
 

Jangles

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Oathy said:
The title comes from this article which is also the basis of this topic: http://beta.news.yahoo.com/no-him-her-preschool-fights-gender-bias-122541829.html
(recommend reading it)

Alright, so the idea of things in this preschool is to encourage the break down of gender stereotypes (aka girls gotta love make up or boys love cars) by trying to implement "gender neutralization" attics. For example, "Lego bricks and other building blocks are intentionally placed next to the kitchen, to make sure the children draw no mental barriers between cooking and construction."

But then it gets ridiculous!
"A story about two male giraffes who are sad to be childless ? until they come across an abandoned crocodile egg. Nearly all the children's books deal with homosexual couples, single parents or adopted children. There are no "Snow White," ''Cinderella" or other classic fairy tales seen as cementing stereotypes." What I don't get is how Cinderella is going cement stereotypes?

They even try to get rid of the words "him" & "her" (han/hon in swedish) and replace it with a made-up word. That is not breaking down gender stereotypes, that is just being unreasonable. What will happen to these children when they get older and realize that there is no subject term called "hen" in the real world.

I support equality, but I find these antics over the top. A boy is a boy and a girl is a girl. Nothing will change that. (unless they get a sex change, but they are preschoolers for heaven sake.) To make choices on sexuality and gender when they are this young is unnecessary.

What do you guys think?


I completely agree with your notion that these tactics are over the top. However, everything that they are attempting to break down are the metaphysical notions of masculinity and femininity. Just take a literary theory class and you will see how engendered language is and how easy it is to overlook gender stereotypes.

Don't get me wrong, I am no feminist, and I certainly do not consider myself a supporter of any of this. What these people are doing is fucking around with little kids' minds and calling it "equality" and "progressive." Pretty soon they will be saying that there is no difference between different colours of skin.
 

Terminate421

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Hey Escapists, I have a question. How many of you were ever 'afraid' of girls at that age because of the 'Cooties'? (This is related due to gender stereotypes)

Stereotypes at that age are common, but thats just because they are children, they don't know any better. Roles are stereotypical as well. Even though most women are stay-at-home moms, some are proffessional wrestlers or even manage big companies.


Also (About made up words), what would the difference between say...a gender word for penguin?
Penguinite?
Penguinette?
Shia-La-Boef-Penguin?
Zooey Deschanel Penguin?
Morgan Freeman Penguin?
Queen Latifa Penguin?

Honestly, it would be confusing and may cause problems aronud kindergarden-2nd grade english.
 

RatRace123

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That's dumb, you can't pretend that gender differences don't exist. Sure you can try to eliminate societal bias but pretending that girls and boys aren't different at all.
Well, that's just gonna confuse more kids than they help.
 

JoJo

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Ickorus said:
Quite a lot of men only like girls (In the sexual context) when they have vaginas, im one of those men.

Im not sure whether you're just flamebaiting now because you're being very aggressive and very close-minded for someone who's making an argument about equality.
Just to give you a heads up mate, I was debating not more than an hour ago with Snowy Rainbow and it ended with him flaming and swearing at me by PM and then ignoring me. It's not worth it, as soon as you get present something logical his way he finishes the debate and woe betide you if you try to continue.

OT: I agree with a lot of the stuff the preschool was doing, but not the no "he" or "she" bit, there are differences between genders and part of equality is recognising and respecting that.
 

Ketsuban

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Sure is patriarchy in here.

Children do not need to be specially taught about societal defaults by stories like Cinderella, because they're just that - the default that society teaches them all, through advertising and peoples' attitudes.

As for the gender-neutral pronoun thing: "they". If it was good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.

Even though most women are stay-at-home moms, some are proffessional wrestlers or even manage big companies.
And there are statistically fewer women managing big companies because for some strange reason they get magically dispreferred in favour of male counterparts.
 

Scrubiii

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Zyntoxic said:
pubbing said:
Zyntoxic said:
Men can carry children and women can theoretically (i'm not sure if this has been done though) impregnate other womens' eggs. This is science people, and we have it, and with it anything is possible.
WTF!?!?!?!?

'slaps with newspaper on nose' NO!

Eggs can not fertilize each other. You need a sperm to do that. Women do not have sperm so this can not happen.

How do you get the baby inside of the man? Does this occur naturally somehow? No you have to create a cavity and put it in there, then you have to feed and oxygenize this baby through tubes because I have never herd of a man being able to form a placenta or umbilical cord before.

I hate to break up your fantasy but that movie where Arnold Schwarzenegger carries a baby isn't real. Movies are just pretend buddy.
it is not about the movie, the men carrying babies have actually been done but it is a rather uncommon procedure, and theoretically you just need 2 parts dna to make a baby so it is very much possible and has been done with rats (as mentioned I'm unsure about humans going through the same procedure) but it is the same basic idea as cloning.

I'd love to give you the actual articles I'm referring to, but a) they are in swedish, but I'm sure one can find something in english as well, but b) I'm in quite a rush to get home from work, another time perhaps?
The procedure involved for a man to become pregnant is for a woman to become pregnant, then get a sex change. They will have no breasts and a penis, but internally, they have a cervix, uterus, ovaries etc. The baby is then delivered by Cesarean section. It is arguable whether or not they are a "man" because although they have a male body externally, they are still female internally.

The procedure for women fertilising their own eggs is, as you said, the same as cloning. An egg cell is removed from a woman's body, the nucleus is removed and replaced with a nucleus from a cell from somewhere else on the woman's body. This nucleus can be from any cell that is not a gamete. The egg cell will then grow and form a baby. However, this baby would be a clone of its mother.

Just thought I'd save you the trouble of looking for the articles.