When you take out a loan and don't pay it back, they take your stuff.MoltenSilver said:I was using a building fire as the most extreme example, not a general occurrence (thought I would argue legal costs are a very variable amount that most people would be surprised how much even a 'smooth' project endures, much less a troubled one); the truth is it's usually a death of a thousand cuts. You CANNOT plan for many slight road bumps that build up and build up and suck the blood out of a project drop by drop over long periods. As a developer all you can do is cross your fingers and hope you aren't the one who slams into these walls. Yes there's bad planning on a lot of projects but frankly no one is prescient and planning is a hell of a lot easier said than done even by the best. The money required to adequately be a 'just in case' fund against the worst case scenarios would add an astronomical number to most projects and strangle them in the Kickstarter crib.Saelune said:I don't think a building fire is the main cause of project failure. I understand context. I'm certainly more lenient on projects that fail cause of something truly out of their control like fires, or some disaster. But I'm betting most failures are due to irresponsibility, either due to poor planning, wasteful spending, or general negligence. If nothing else, if they fail and cant prove its not their fault, then they should have to pay the backers back somehow.MoltenSilver said:I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of control most of these developers have; sure most developers should set the goal somewhat over what they really need as an emergency fund, but there are so many outside factors that can destroy even a cautious-within-all-reason budget such as: lawyer costs if the developer gets embroiled in a big lawsuit, something that delays production (office building being destroyed in a fire for example; either you keep paying the team while not working or dismiss them all and have to go through re-hiring, neither of which is inexpensive), a personal crisis of a crucial member of the team that forces them to abandon or delay the project, the reasons go on endlessly. And all of this is further exacerbated by the Kickstarter model forcing the developer to set the goal as low as possible due to it being 'all or nothing' collection model.Saelune said:Well, why is the money gone? If nothing else some communication would be nice. Explain why you need x amount of money, and if you get that much and its still not enough, why? Why did it fail? Does it have to fail or are you just not trying hard enough? Just being clear can be a big help.Worgen said:I agree in principle, but unless the project literally took the money and ran. Its probably all gone. If you put money in the stock market and the value of your stocks tanks, you dont get anything back either.Saelune said:Depending on the project, people should still get something back atleast.Worgen said:Yeah, they dont get the money unless the funding goal is met, at least through all the ones I know of. I think the change here is that after the project has taken the money, some still fail to deliver and that is the change that paypal is making, they are specifically saying that money is gone, you cant try and get it back.Saelune said:Like I said, I don't think they should get the money until they meet their backing goal, so if they mathed it right, shouldn't need more money. I don't think they should get anything until then. If you paid for a service, and they don't do it, you wouldn't want to still pay them, would you?L34dP1LL said:But they need the money to continue the proyect. You're making a catch 22Saelune said:Like I said, a lot of reworking needs to be done. Perhaps money shouldn't be given to them until the goal is reached. Then its the project's responsibility to be finished. If you cant pay it back, then don't just cancel it. If this means they have to pay back backers with their own money, that's on them, now isn't it? I don't think backers are the only ones who should be worried about risks from crowdfunding.lacktheknack said:They don't have it anymore. How much blood can you get out of a rock?Saelune said:Well, I think Crowdfunding in general needs an overhaul in how they work. I am in favor of it overall, but cancelled/unfinished projects should return the money.
As has been pointed out above,
Crowdfunding isn't a store,
Crowdfunding isn't an investment,
Unless there's outright fraud involved the money has been spent; Salaries, development tools, community managers, all of these are expenses you can't exactly 'take back' when the project crashes.
While there's an argument to be made that Kickstarter/its clients aren't taken to task enough for trying to make their projects seem like a store to bring in money it isn't like that fact is deeply buried or actively hidden. Kickstarter is money shoveled into a fire in the hopes the ashes are something worthwhile.
But ok, let's say there's a hypothetical scenario the glaring incompetence of a project's management is plain for all to see. How/why should they pay the money back? To start with the how, where exactly is the money to pay back going to come from? Do you think any bank is going to give a loan to someone to do so? you'd be laughed out of the building. Sell off your assets? What assets and who would buy them?
As for the why, are you going to insist the developer bankrupt themselves personally? There is no way to coerce that because the exact purpose of a corporation is to allow enterprise without someone having to force their personal finances being dragged into their business failures and I highly doubt anyone would render themselves homeless just to repay out of the goodness of their hearts.