No Right Answer: Strongest Female Video Game Lead Ever

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Well, that was awkward.

This is the only one of these videos that I've watched. Are they all like this?

Also, does anyone else find it funny that neither of the subject "Strongest Female Lead Characters" are leads, but rather sidekicks? Plot-critical sidekicks, yes, but sidekicks nonetheless.
 

Webb Myers

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May 17, 2010
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While we're throwing out names, I'd add Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever.

Elizabeth and Ellie are more on the level of Trip (Enslaved) or Alyx Vance (HL2): tag-along characters that can offer some support (or at least stay out of the way) in combat. There are plenty of RPG squad-mates that are stronger (physically and as characters), but they're usually optional.

I'm hoping there will be a do-over in the near future...
 

YicklePigeon

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Jan 3, 2012
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Realitycrash said:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. For me, in fiction, a strong female character is simply a strong character which happens to be female. Because that would mean starting to define 'what makes a woman and what makes a man' in the form of character-attributes, and that is, as I have said, either counter-productive or downright sexist.
Well I agree with you. And here are two more characters - in addition to those that others have listed (especially Broken Sword's Nico!) - that happen to be female but are strong (or rather: well-written) characters that are either the or one of the actual protagonists are Carla Valenti from Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy and, for what was ostensibly a comedy parody, Cate Archer in the first No One Lives Forever (less so the second). Something slightly more recent would be Faith Connors of Mirror's Edge.

EDIT: Just noticed your post Webb. You have good taste (re: Cate Archer). :)
 

Alar

The Stormbringer
Dec 1, 2009
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Elizabeth has a nice plot, if you know what I mean...

I'm a big fan of strong female characters. Being raised on Studio Ghibli movies, I actually prefer it.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Jul 24, 2011
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Really? REALLY? It's between 2 NPCs? NPCS are NOT -leads-!*Vehement swearing*
Not in my book! You play as the lead. You hold their power as the player! Strongest female Videogame Lead Ever should be about women you play as from start to end.
Yeah, I know you play as Ellie a bit, but that's not enough for me.
The strongest female videogame leader should trump the majority of guys that only want to play as guys with her character. People have to want to play as the woman, male, female, what have you.
If you don't want to play as them, if you can't play as them, they're not that strong. Even if it doesn't make sense that you'd play as them, they have to have that certain something that makes you want to experience the world through them.

To hell with NPCs, bluntly!
Lara Croft, Samus (short of Other M), Aya Brea, any woman you play as in Resident Evil, Bayonetta. Heck, I'd consider Femshep as iconic as she is.

Female NPCs are nice, and all, but I don't think they do as much as women you play as in excellent games. They might further things, but to -really- further things, they need to be playable, and welcomed enough to be successful. Being an NPC for most of the game really limits the whole strength bit in my book.

If this were about female NPCs? I'd feel a lot better about it. I'd add Clem from Walking Dead.
But -lead-? Ugh.
 

Firefilm

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May 27, 2011
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Webb Myers said:
While we're throwing out names, I'd add Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever.

Elizabeth and Ellie are more on the level of Trip (Enslaved) or Alyx Vance (HL2): tag-along characters that can offer some support (or at least stay out of the way) in combat. There are plenty of RPG squad-mates that are stronger (physically and as characters), but they're usually optional.

I'm hoping there will be a do-over in the near future...
There will be a do over, we assure you.
 

Easton Dark

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Jan 2, 2011
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GloatingSwine said:
Easton Dark said:
It was Samus until Other M happened.
Given that Other M never happened, it still is.

Never happened you hear me.

Never. Happened.
Hey I hear ya man I hear ya. No need to make the atmosphere all tense 'n such. It's all good feelings.
 

Mikeyfell

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Aug 24, 2010
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Firefilm said:
Mikeyfell said:
Dear No Right Answer:

Please learn what a "lead character" is.
Ellie and Elizabeth are both supporting rolls,

Their participation in the plot is either passive or forced upon them.
Ellie is the lead for two chapters of Last of Us.
But for the most part it's Joel and Booker actively driving the plot while Ellie and Elizabeth follow and provide...Support.


Best female character, sure those are worthy choices, but they aren't lead.
Asides from two brief scenes Ellie doesn't drive the plot (Her condition does, but that's passive)

Clementine from Walking Dead is a better "Lead" character because her motivation is the only thing driving Lee to do the plot.

Joel and Booker would be doing this whether or not Ellie and Elizabeth had anything to do about it.
Hey Mikeyfell,

An arguement can be made that these two characters are "Co-Leads" in their respective games. Even though the player only controls Ellie for a portion of the game, and only interacts with Elizabeth instead of playing her, the two ladies seem to transcend the traditional "Support" role.

That's just our opinion though, and when we used the term "Lead" we were referring to the plot, not the gameplay. Yes, Elizabeth is an NPC, and Ellie isn't played very long, but plot-wise they are just as much if not more a driving force in the story than their male companions.

Perhaps a better title would be "Strongest Female Video Game Protagonist", though I'm sure that would still cause debate. It's all in good fun, though, and I hope you enjoyed the video.


I don't think they really transcend supporting rolls so much as they're some of the best examples of them video games can claim.
Calling them Co-leads is an odd grey area I hadn't considered. To me Co-leads are different characters driving different plots in the same narrative. (Sort of like Game of Thrones where almost every character is running their own plot towards an overarching goal)

To me Ellie and Elizabeth are closer to plot devices then lead characters.

Ellie as a device is the reason the plot can happen, Ellie as a person is what's motivating Joel to continue the journey.
Up until the Dam chapter when Joel wants to stop and Ellie's motivation becomes the driving force of the plot. (Then in the final chapter Joel takes back over as lead when Ellie decides to stop)

And in Infinite Elizabeth's switch happens differently where she doesn't take over as lead character so much as her motivations fall in line with Booker's so they're both trying to achieve the same end.
But the plot for Bioshock Infinite is so convoluted the Luteces are probably leading characters in that game considering that they're the reason that Comstock exists, and that Elizabeth has powers and the reason Booker is on Columbia (And maybe the reason he's in debt in the first place? That was never clear to me)
If you don't interrupt her Elizabeth will keep dancing on the beach until the end of time, she's not too concerned with the plot until the very end.

I'd say "Strongest Female Video Game Character" would be an even more appropriate title, because I'm hard pressed to think of stronger video game characters than them (Ellie in particular) male or female.
And I like the video a lot, No Right Answer always makes my Thursday, even when I have to point out little nit picky things like an odd choice of words in the title.
 

MrHide-Patten

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Jun 10, 2009
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As much as people are whining about the wording of the video on lead (herp a derp a do), I so like the premise of comparing Ellie and Elizabeth.

As much as I liked Bioshock Infinite's setting and Elizabeth, Ellie still takes the cake. Because you actually get to play as her and her growth is a bit more nuanced I suppose (whereas Elizabeth's a bit overshadowed by the PLOT TWISTS), that and she's a child character, which in almost every other instance would have me throwing the character to the undead.
 

leviadragon99

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Jun 17, 2010
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So... we're talking about strong characters in terms of character arcs/complexity and what they bring to the story rather than overall capabilities? Kay, makes sense, I was originally expecting Samus to make the list, even with the way Other M mishandled her.
 

Korten12

Now I want ma...!
Aug 26, 2009
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FoolKiller said:
I'm glad to know that these two have redefined the word ever to mean 2013.
Or more like their opinion? Or because their opinion is different it means it's wrong?

Personally, while people do mention Laura croft, the problem I have is that in the game she was in there was too much disconnection from story and gameplay. In the story she is supposed to be new at this stuff but in gameplay has no problem killing hundreds of people without batting an eye.

To me, that takes away from the character.

A similar argument could be made about Bioshock: Infinite.
 

FoolKiller

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Korten12 said:
FoolKiller said:
I'm glad to know that these two have redefined the word ever to mean 2013.
Or more like their opinion? Or because their opinion is different it means it's wrong?
They've redefined their opinion? Or they've redefined ever to mean their opinion? The second one makes more sense in this context but is still useless. You're not doing a very good job defending them.

Either way, their opinions are most likely wrong not because the reasons are bad but because there is good reason to question how many games before this year, or console generation, were considered for "ever".
 

Korten12

Now I want ma...!
Aug 26, 2009
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FoolKiller said:
Korten12 said:
FoolKiller said:
I'm glad to know that these two have redefined the word ever to mean 2013.
Or more like their opinion? Or because their opinion is different it means it's wrong?
They've redefined their opinion? Or they've redefined ever to mean their opinion? The second one makes more sense in this context but is still useless. You're not doing a very good job defending them.

Either way, their opinions are most likely wrong not because the reasons are bad but because there is good reason to question how many games before this year, or console generation, were considered for "ever".
Considering this is an opinion-based show your arguments holds no water. They aren't saying- "This is the right choice without a doubt and you can't argue."

In fact, the whole show is about arguing their opinions, not about debating which is OBJECTIVELY better characters.

Also it seems you have a problem with the fact that games from previous years were included. Well considering they're both two strong characters who are cut above many sterotypical Female characters and were in great games to boot, most likely resonated with them.

Personally out of all the characters I have played with female characters, I would say that to me, Ellie is one of the best female characters ever. Some get close. It has nothing to do with how old the games are.
 

octafish

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Apr 23, 2010
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Webb Myers said:
While we're throwing out names, I'd add Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever.

Elizabeth and Ellie are more on the level of Trip (Enslaved) or Alyx Vance (HL2): tag-along characters that can offer some support (or at least stay out of the way) in combat. There are plenty of RPG squad-mates that are stronger (physically and as characters), but they're usually optional.

I'm hoping there will be a do-over in the near future...
Yesssssssss! Also anyone who said April Ryan or Jade from BG&E should stand proud. I quite liked Tomb Raider too so I'll accept Lara Croft too...but if I have to pick one it is still Cate.
 

Fox12

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Jun 6, 2013
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It's not even a debate, Ellie is an infinitely superior character. Purity doesn't make Elizabeth a better character, it actually does the opposite in some respects. She's the princess in the tower, the girl who is too perfect for the world. She almost borders on mary sue, though there's enough characterization that she becomes more interesting later on. Elizabeth felt a little cliche to me, and I felt the game missed the little intimate moments that made Ellie great. She's also a very reactionary character who only responds to the things happening around her. Her future is completely shaped by the people in her life, until perhaps the very end. She's a good character from a good game, but she's certainly not great.

Ellie, on the other hand, is flawed in just the right way. She can be naive, but tough in a way Elizabeth isn't. She's also resourceful, and takes a situation into her own hands before waiting on another character to rescue her. She manages to be vulnerable without being weak, something that is VERY hard to pull off in writing. Elizabeth rarely succeeds at this. Ellie is funny, brave, clever, a little bit pervy, and very very flawed. In other words, she's a human being. More specifically, she's a teenager. It's been said that we like people for their strengths, but we love them for their flaws, and in this Ellie feels like a well rounded and more lively person than Elizabeth ever was.

I would also like to point out that Ellie felt more like a real, fleshed out character. I wanted to protect her as Joel, but I also wanted to protect Joel as her. This is very important, because it solidifies her as an independent character independent of Joel. She's not the sidekick, or "the chick." She's just a normal person, and Naughty Dog never felt the need to trumpet the fact that they had a strong female character. They were confident in their writing, and let the characters speak for themselves. Elizabeth always felt like she was tagging along for the journey, even though she was the center of the story. The game tried too hard to make me feel like I needed to protect this woman. The Last of Us, on the other hand, felt like it was simply a story of two characters looking out for one another, and both of them were needed to keep the other alive.

That said, I hesitate to label anyone "the greatest of all time." Even someone as lively as Ellie.