No Right Answer: Superman vs Captain America - Most Patriotic Superhero

Firefilm

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Superman vs Captain America - Most Patriotic Superhero

Can Truth, Justice and the American Way trump someone with America in his name? Let's find out!

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gorfias

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Batman and Cap have fought!


There was company crossover too. I think it was a draw between the two. Can't remember the name of the series. Stuff like, Wolverine kick's Lobo's butt happens too. Big red guy trying to settle an argument with a big blue guy.

Superman is a leader for the JLA. He deserves props. I think he has the power, character and experiences to be a better leader than Cap.

Course, depends upon the genre. The movie characters in a heads on: Cap wins big time. Comics: Superman.
 

jdarksun

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Superman was a great American icon. Now he's just another grimdark DC hero (movie). /yawn.
 

Firefilm

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Most patriotic is Cap by far. Which is a different question entirely from which is the biggest icon. Prior to the live action movies of either back in the 70's, it was probably Superman. Now, hard to say.
 
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Superman was, is, and always remains, the second most boring hero ever created. (Sorry Aquaman, your life sucks)
DC comics are choked with boring assed, over powered gods, and Kal is the biggest offender of them all.

Anyways, didn't both of them Renounce their American citizenship, precisely because of 'Merica! ?
 
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Gorfias said:
Batman and Cap have fought!


There was company crossover too. I think it was a draw between the two. Can't remember the name of the series. Stuff like, Wolverine kick's Lobo's butt happens too. Big red guy trying to settle an argument with a big blue guy.

Superman is a leader for the JLA. He deserves props. I think he has the power, character and experiences to be a better leader than Cap.

Course, depends upon the genre. The movie characters in a heads on: Cap wins big time. Comics: Superman.
So Batman fought Cap to a standstill. Spider-Man Killed batman, my takeaway: Spider-Man > Cap or Bats.
 

jdarksun

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Spidey's Spider-Sense alone puts him above Batman's weight class. And, yeah, Spider-man is smarter, stronger, and faster than Captain America. I just don't see Steve Rogers winning that fight.
 

rekabdarb

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Gorfias said:
Batman and Cap have fought!
Yeah! in DC VS Marvel comics. Captain America lost, but Batman still saved him, because he realized that Cap was lawful good.

Uhm. anyways Superman can't be 'american' considering he gave up his american citizenship in the comics fairly recently.

To counter Kyle's argument of Steve Rogers is just a abilities from a vial, not so. Merely his physical abilities. Steve Rogers became the man he is because he wasn't the strongest or the best. He was chosen (at least in the movies) for that reason to become the person he now is.

Also I seem to recall that Superman has technically led this country in a little comic called Injustice? I believe it didn't turn out so well.
 

Elijah Newton

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Love the banter. Neat topic but feel like you chose two functionally identical heros inasmuch as their relationship with the U.S.A.. There's a lot of meaty discussion to be had with the idea of them as 'American' heroes who'd desperately like to represent the world.

Hm. If Superman were president, Batman's pretty much a shoe-in for head of CIA. ?I'm not sure I like how that cabinet is shaping up.

Side question, if readers from abroad don't mind answering - what would the most patriotic superhero for your country be? I'm not even sure this is a fair question to ask, though, seeing as how the majority of supers I'm aware of were written by U.S. folks. Any hometown heroes worth keeping my eyes open for?
 

KaZuYa

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What about Wonder Woman? I would of thought the Lasso of Truth would of been the perfect tool in the world of Politics.

Though an American friend of mine said while voting in a black man for president showed how far they had come he doubted he would ever seen a female president in his life time, he thought it was actually seen by many in the political circles as a much bigger taboo.
 

vagabondwillsmile

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Maybe he used to be the most patriotic. But as of two movies ago, "Does he still stand for truth, justice, ... all that other stuff?". I think that alone pretty much sums it up as far as patriotism goes for Superman. (I liked the movie though - Kevin Spacey was a blast to watch in every scene as Lex - even if Superman spent way too much time pining over someone else's girl. Maybe jealousy is patriotic?).

And in the last movie, he's just as responsible for wanton distruction and loss of life as the "villain". As much as it was a Dragon Ball Z fight, he didn't make any effort to get Zod to follow him to a non-populated area like Goku would have done. Citizens everywhere be damned. Maybe completely disregarding the health and safety of your fellow man to reach your goal is patriotic? Noone in Metropolis had life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness once Superman decided that's where they'd have their showdown. He saved only the handfull of people that need to be around for the sequal, or he saved someone when the script needed to artificially pull on the audience's heart strings to give the illusion that his a hero. "All these people are dead - it's horrific" - say the director and script writer in my imagination - "Quick write a scene where he saves someone so we can remind everyone that he cares about people or something." They try real hard to make him Space Jesus. Maybe that's patriotic. A ham-fisted, obvious one that saves no one (saving is one of defining characterstics you would need) so they couldn't even do THAT right. I know of churches doing youth-group outings to see the film, and using the film as evidence that Superman represents their religious values by ascribing to the same religion. Maybe he's patriotic from a religious right perspective? I'm struggling to find ways for Superman to be patriotic.

It seems pretty obvious to me who is more patriotic - for right or for wrong. How is this even a debate?
 

gorfias

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
So Batman fought Cap to a standstill. Spider-Man Killed batman, my takeaway: Spider-Man > Cap or Bats.
Makes sense. I've read a number of comics where Spiderman has trouble fighting a normal athletic human. Particularly the Tarantula. Someone probably realized, this guy is supposed to have the proportionate strength of a Spider. I saw an illustrated grouping once of various Marvel heroes by physical strength. They had Spiderman grouped with the Thing.

Yeah, whoever the script has winning does win. Batman fought the hulk and others to a stand still in one cross over. Silly. Logically? Batman and Cap couldn't land a finger on Spidey and if they did, it wouldn't hurt him.

rekabdarb said:
Gorfias said:
Batman and Cap have fought!
Yeah! in DC VS Marvel comics. Captain America lost, but Batman still saved him, because he realized that Cap was lawful good.
Does Batman pull his unconscious body from a waterway? Rings a bell. I recall a thought bubble with one of them thinking they'd never been so evenly matched.

Uhm. anyways Superman can't be 'american' considering he gave up his american citizenship in the comics fairly recently.
It's Superman. He could turn back time and talk the founders into changing the Constitution. I'm sure he'd find a way.

To counter Kyle's argument of Steve Rogers is just a abilities from a vial, not so. Merely his physical abilities. Steve Rogers became the man he is because he wasn't the strongest or the best. He was chosen (at least in the movies) for that reason to become the person he now is.
As the doc says. Because he is a good person. His having been puny and facing insurmountable odds but standing up for right anyway is all pure good, admirable, character.

Superman gets props from me for having all that power, but resisting using it for evil.

Bad movie with Peter Weller once had him propose that Satan got it all wrong. Of course Job remained holy after being cursed. G-d was all an impoverished and crippled Job had left. But if Satan had given Job everything he could ever want, his ego might have gotten the better of him, causing him to become depraved. That's a trap Superman stayed out of.

You do note Superman has lead at times things didn't work out.

Do you recall which side Cap was on in Marvel's Civil War? Was he in the right? I don't recall the answer myself. Just asking.
 

Baresark

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Watching the video is inconsequential. This is the stupidest debate I have ever seen. It's Captain America. And I'm not saying that because he wears the American flag. I'm saying that because his character has always represented the good of the ideal America. In his very first incarnations, he fought the Nazi's. And not that Hydra BS either, actual Nazi's back in the late 30's and early 40's, when his first comics went to print. He batted on the side of the free during the Marvel Civil War when everyone in the Marvel Universe thought all of them should have to register and become hands of the state.
 

Frozengale

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Wow, Chris was really just itching for an opportunity to press the Laser button on his hoodie.
 

medv4380

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Such a missed opportunity. It's been known for a while their previously untitled marvel moving in may 2016 was Cap 3, and that it would be going up against Superman/Batman, assuming WB doesn't blink. Had this been taken that into context it may have been more interesting of a topic.

Too much of this is comparing Cap to Superman and not Cap and Superman to what makes a good American Patriot. If you're doing "power" comparisons Sup wins, but what do you expect of someone who's name means Voice of God. As far as power goes Sup fails at being an american because he's too powerful. The "Why did you let X happen?" always hits hard. Cap at least has the valid reason that he can't be everywhere, and doesn't have to power to do everything. Once you have time traveling superman that kinda fails as a reason for not saving everyone.

Superman's not even the better fighter. Sure, Superman would win due to raw power, but that isn't what makes someone a better fighter. Superman is prone to throwing wild hay makers that are one of the worst moves you can do in a fight, but they work for him only due to raw power. When pitted against a foe like Hulk, or Doomsday Sup's lack of fighting skill starts to show.

Cap has unquestionable morals. He's always on the right side even when he's on the unpopular side. He stood against Tony in Civil War from the start. Even when he doesn't have the power he's willing to step up. Superman actually has to let evil happen in his world, and gives much the same reason you'd expect God to give. But God gets the privilege of being beyond human, and if you give Sup that privilege he can't really be a good patriotic american.

Cap vs Shazam or Captain Atom would have made a better argument for who's the better American. Sup, unfortunately, is God on Earth, and has the baggage that come with that when trying to make him out to be a good american.
 

Chris Mosher

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Superman was, is, and always remains, the second most boring hero ever created. (Sorry Aquaman, your life sucks)
DC comics are choked with boring assed, over powered gods, and Kal is the biggest offender of them all.

Anyways, didn't both of them Renounce their American citizenship, precisely because of 'Merica! ?
Superman renounced his citizenship of american a few years ago to have a more global perspective and Steve Rogers renounced the mantle of Captain America in response to either Watergate or the Marvel equivalent of Watergate back in the 70's. He took on the name Nomad.
 

Vivi22

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jdarksun said:
And, yeah, Spider-man is smarter, stronger, and faster than Captain America. I just don't see Steve Rogers winning that fight.
All of the power stuff is true, but Spider-Man is untrained as a fighter, not an expert in tactics at all, and Cap regularly holds his own against stronger opponents because he is a trained soldier and tactical mastermind. It'd be a close fight, but I think Cap could potentially take it.

There's a good reason the weakest guy in the Avengers on paper is also their leader.
 

Darth_Payn

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Why do you guys always say Superman blew up Metropolis? He was on the other side of the world when that started, destroying one part of Zod's doomsday (no pun intended) device, then went back to kick Zod's ass and stop him from doing anymore destruction. He wouldn't stop, so Supes had to break his neck.
 
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Vivi22 said:
jdarksun said:
And, yeah, Spider-man is smarter, stronger, and faster than Captain America. I just don't see Steve Rogers winning that fight.
All of the power stuff is true, but Spider-Man is untrained as a fighter, not an expert in tactics at all, and Cap regularly holds his own against stronger opponents because he is a trained soldier and tactical mastermind. It'd be a close fight, but I think Cap could potentially take it.

There's a good reason the weakest guy in the Avengers on paper is also their leader.
Cap has potential, but he's not fast enough to counter the Spider-Sense. Batman has something like triple black belts in 13 or so martial arts, and it didn't do jack for him. Cap can undoubtedly take more punishment than Bats, but he won't land enough shots to do it. I'll grant you that Cap's shield would definitely leave a mark on Spidey, but I'm pretty sure he could tank enough of those to win. Additionally Spider-Man has developed and trained in his OWN martial art, the "Way of the Spider" Which is like Hapkido on Powerthirst. The difference I think is that spidey comes out on top, but in rough shape. He barely broke a sweat Killing Batman.
 

Firefilm

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Adam McClain said:
You know what? I'm done watching you guys. Too many times you have eschewed the basis for your show in place of a shameless view grab tactic. Last week's Game of Thrones bit was a real eye opener. Not about THAT series, but about you. You will do anything just to get some extra views. If your show can't compete based on it's own merits and content, without stooping to low brow tactics like stirring up people just for the views, then perhaps your show isn't good enough to survive. For a show that's so desperate for views, can you really afford to lose anymore to these sophomoric shenanigans? When Jim or Yahtzee stir people up, it's because they have SOMETHING to say. You guys do it because you have NOTHING to say.

At any rate, I'm out. You hacks.
Who said we were stooping? We've always been sophomoric!
 

Godhead

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Man, I'm digging that Ravens glass. Maybe we could get Ray Lewis to be Cap's VP.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Sorry I wasn't really paying attention. I was too busy polishing my hockey stick.
Adam McClain said:
You know what? I'm done watching you guys. Too many times you have eschewed the basis for your show in place of a shameless view grab tactic. Last week's Game of Thrones bit was a real eye opener. Not about THAT series, but about you. You will do anything just to get some extra views. If your show can't compete based on it's own merits and content, without stooping to low brow tactics like stirring up people just for the views, then perhaps your show isn't good enough to survive. For a show that's so desperate for views, can you really afford to lose anymore to these sophomoric shenanigans? When Jim or Yahtzee stir people up, it's because they have SOMETHING to say. You guys do it because you have NOTHING to say.

At any rate, I'm out. You hacks.
Wow somebody's taking this waaaaaay too seriously.
 

ExtraDebit

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At least Captain America knows what is like to be weak and powerless. Of the two, captain america definitely have more empathy towards american citizen more, also he stands for freedom and justice.

The ONE time superman lose his power in the movie you know what he did? He went and spend his sweet time with his girlfriend. Steve Rogers were weak and powerless and you know what he did? He tried and tried again to sign up to fight the nazies.
 

Thick Mclargehuge

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But...Cap WAS president for a time.

Well, Ultimates Cap (whose a bit different than the 616 version) but I think it's still worth noting.

I'm glad to see Captain America winning this one, as I feel he is far and above a better 'American' ideal than Superman.

Cap's real 'superpower' is his character. All of his good villains challenge Captain America on his ideals and morals.
 

Firefilm

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KaZuYa said:
What about Wonder Woman? I would of thought the Lasso of Truth would of been the perfect tool in the world of Politics.
No, no... And oh, did I say no yet?

This isn't about who would be best for politics (wherever the hell you got that from I have no clue), it's about who REPRESENTS AMERICA best. It's said like... a minute into the video. They make mention of if they were the president, but that is, quite honestly, all it is. It goes nothing further than that.

Beyond the fact that Wonderwoman is as far removed from being representative of America as possible (aside from the costume) - being from a matriarchal society practically devoid of men and with a basis moreso rooted within older European culture (namely Greek), she just doesn't fit. Besides the "Lasso of Truth" has little use other than serving as both a plot device (when needed), as she is seen using it much more as just another weapon. In fact, they've been inventing more and more uses for the lasso to make up for that fact. They've even moved the "truth" part to Wonder Woman herself, with the lasso serving only as a focus for it.
 

Chris Pranger

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Adam McClain said:
"You know what? I'm done watching you guys. Too many times you have eschewed the basis for your show in place of a shameless view grab tactic. Last week's Game of Thrones bit was a real eye opener. Not about THAT series, but about you. You will do anything just to get some extra views. If your show can't compete based on it's own merits and content, without stooping to low brow tactics like stirring up people just for the views, then perhaps your show isn't good enough to survive. For a show that's so desperate for views, can you really afford to lose anymore to these sophomoric shenanigans? When Jim or Yahtzee stir people up, it's because they have SOMETHING to say. You guys do it because you have NOTHING to say.

At any rate, I'm out. You hacks."
What bums me out the most is that if we do an episode based around something topical that we really do care about (I had just finished watching Game of Thrones and was fired up to talk about it), it's assumed we're just doing it to stir up controversy or get attention. I'm not about to knock Jim or Yahtzee because they're awesome, but damn are they lucky that the whole point of their shows is "being topical."

If our lack of a serious discussion is bothering, I would recommend watching one of our more toned-down episodes, such as the Suicide Special or some of the other episodes we have coming up. I can't get too deep into specifics, but we do have some active changes in the works regarding more serious topics mixed in around lighthearted evergreen debates (by which I mean we have a handful actually filmed and waiting to queue up mixed in with what fans generally expect).

Essentially, I'm sorry to see you go but I can understand if our show just doesn't strike you where you'd like it. Thank God for Jim! :)
 

lowkey_jotunn

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... why are we having a Cap vs Supes debate, and drinking out of a Spiderman glass, and a Baltimore ravens glass?

Get some Captain America and Superman glassware. Make sure it's clean (I hear that your glasses are filthy) and do the spit take challenge proper like.

P.S. The whole "everything special about you came out of a bottle" thing was BS in avengers, and it still is. Or do we not remember Stanley Tucci's speech in First Avenger?
 

Therumancer

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Gorfias said:
Batman and Cap have fought!


There was company crossover too. I think it was a draw between the two. Can't remember the name of the series. Stuff like, Wolverine kick's Lobo's butt happens too. Big red guy trying to settle an argument with a big blue guy.

Superman is a leader for the JLA. He deserves props. I think he has the power, character and experiences to be a better leader than Cap.

Course, depends upon the genre. The movie characters in a heads on: Cap wins big time. Comics: Superman.
Yes the two fought at the end of the so called "Amalgam Era" and the fight was never concluded. The two godlike beings basically looked at all of the creations and decided they were all beautiful and not to bother to go through with the whole "only one world can survive" thing and just ended it. It was less a draw than the duel that was never fully resolved due to the needs of the story.

The lead up to the fight when you had the two universes meeting (without being combined) and they were battling each other's rogues gallery in brief snippits was more amusing. There was a scene of Bane about to snap Cap's back "Knightfall" style only to have Cap's shield richochet and nail him in the back of the head... and stuff like that done to be cute. :)
 

Happiness Assassin

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Didn't Superman at one point renounce his American citizenship in protest against the US government? I couldn't help but be reminded of that when watching this.
 

Therumancer

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On the issue of the this episode it was quite amusing, to be honest it didn't help that it couldn't be kept deadpan. A joke like this is only really funny if your not making it clear your joking around and trying to be snarky.

That said if you were to ever seriously bring this up, to be honest I don't think you can really say there is a real patriotic American super hero. As was pointed out Superman is more global, and I believe it made news at one point that he renounced US citizenship to officially be "the world's hero" so to speak. Even the "Justice League Of America" became "Justice League International" and later just "The Justice League", and I believe they relocated it's HQs to the moon so symbolically it wouldn't be operating out of any specific nation. When it comes to Captain America, I'd flat out said he's no longer really worthy of the title. To put it bluntly the guy has been an outright traitor on a number of occasions, and it's not just that he disagreed with America, it's the fact that he as a rule has turned almost immediately to a version of terrorism when he disagrees. He doesn't generally try and work within, or reason with the system seriously it's like "Mutant Registration Act, okay, I'll go out and lead a violent insurgency".

Now for those reading this far I'm going to point out two important things to this subject which are kind of sad. Some might want to skip to the second point which has to do with irony.

1: In the US we have the media, including comics, largely controlled by the roughly half of the population that tends to think that the very idea of nationalism is wrong, at least when the US does it. A sort of counter-culture having become a major social force and largely being in control of the media. Basically someone being really patriotic about the US and it's principles, and actually putting our interests, culture, and point of view forward aggressively is something the media tends to mock, and characterize in a bad way. Basically the only time "patriotism" is generally depicted as being good is when it's patriotism by what amounts to counter culture, working against the wishes of those with a
strong national agenda.

When it comes to Captain America for example, it should be noted that one of the big things that happened is that the character was de-patriotized. We had Cap for a while running around beating up commies and fighting to defend the nation and promote it's own culture and interests. This was later retconned by later writers to be a Cap imposter who was also depicted as being insane. Largely because the whole crusade against socialist/communist philosophy in the US failed. Nowadays while Cap does still sort of work for the government at times, he spends as much if not more time pretty much working against it one way or another, due to the fact that the guys writing comics are largely from the 50% that might not realize it but their idealogy comes down to the only way to be American is to pretty much hate anything actually American and try and subvert it.

Whether that's right or wrong overall, I won't get into here, just keep that in mind when I come to point 2:


2: The big irony of current comics is that the most patriotic comic characters in American comics are the ones from other countries. I mean seriously it's seen as being perfectly okay to show Colossus going home in some universes, becoming what amounts to the new head of the USSR, donning the hammer and sickle, and kicking butt for mutants and commies. Oddly nobody in comics or otherwise has an issue with this, or when he just in general spouts off about how great Russia is periodically, despite this being a guy who is literally attending a US based private school. We have The Black Panther (and some of his associates) arrogantly going around talking smack about how awesome his nation is, sometimes while grabbing a free lunch at Avengers HQs (though to be fair a lot of the time he's not around as he's presumably trying to be a responsible head of state). We've got Captain Britan running around affiliated with his country's black ops at times and beating the Union Jack into people's faces, sometimes even in parallel universes being shown as say "King Britain" embracing a sort of fascist militant spirit sort of like Colossus, and still generally being considered a good guy while he does it. If you keep going you'll pretty much see tons of cases of non-American heroes showing the flag, being witty and nationalistic, and periodically getting facist futures where "X" is now the focus of events pretty much and they are still the good guy. If an American acts the same way as a general rule it's a lead in to something bad, or being set up for a punchline. You generally don't see any futures with say Steve Rogers ruling the last remnants of humanity in the final battle as "Emperor America" and having it be seen as a good thing (well as far
as those kinds of futures go) in the same way.

In recent years it could be said, that with Superman resigning US citizenship the most patriotic the character has actually been was when he was reinvented as "The Red Son" for an elseworlds story... acting as a "Good Russian". Granted that story went in some weird places, but it's still darkly amusing superficially when you think of patriotism. Furthermore when DC had Lex Luthor elected President of The United States in their main continuity you have to say that as a whole they are being about as anti-patriotic and engaging in as much counter-culture US bashing as possible rather than rallying behind the country even in it's bad times or when you disagree as patriots are supposed to do (trying to turn things around, but still doing your duty, without becoming a counter-culture rebel).

Now, again, I won't get into government morality, or what's good or bad here, I'm just saying that the US is probably the least patriotic/nationalist country on earth despite pretensions to the opposite by the counter culture. Our media and pop-culture, even stuff like comics, that you'd expect to be patriotic, haven't been for decades, as they largely use iconic characters in red white and blue like Captain America to take the piss out of the country more than anything. It's all about whining, complaining, and tearing things down, as a general rule the US really doesn't rally. What's more by positively showing patriotism to other nations and cultures that in a way also takes another chunk out of the US.

I will honestly be surprised if we ever see a genuinely patriotic big time super hero, who isn't being set up for a joke, or to be used to ultimately make some kind of Anti-US/US-culture joke. At the best right now patriots can only be supporting characters, or anti-heroes (like Nick Fury).
 

xrogaan

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That "What?!" at the end made me burst in laughter. And yes, I agreed totally with Kyle.

What is America anyway? It is not just the USA, so is it not a bit presumptuous to be called "captain america" when he should really be called "Captain USA"? And by the way, the most patriotic Superhero for that country would be some idiot with the catchphrase "god bless us all.". That what's your politicians do anyway.
 

Ferisar

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Therumancer said:
But then again, that's often being done in the context and perception of the U.S. In recent years, it's increasingly hard to have pride for the U.S. on a scale, or, rather, within the demographics that may read these comics. Yeah, sure, Freedom and stuff, but given the -general- perception of the U.S. as being a military powerhouse that does often use it, warranted or not, while giving the signals of being pretty paranoid creates a hard sell on characters that stand for idealism rather than for the realistic depictions. (if not depictions, at least parallels)
Similarly, it's not hard to have that occur on characters which aren't anywhere near the U.S. because their nation's perception by those same readers is a myth. Of course it's funny/admirable when a USSR Ruski superhero does "I Super Russian, Communism Gulag, hoho /tonguecheek" nonsense. It's all a myth to enjoy, even by someone who's from that country, because it gets exaggerated to the point of silliness, while providing the (majority) of readers from the U.S. and the such a very vibrant amusement park ride. At least that's my take on it based on what you've said. It's hard to have the same response be applied to multiple countries when those countries, globally, tend to be extremely different.

Also proooobably important to note that the majority of the "big" comics are written in the U.S. (afaik), thus the whole counter-culture response likely being fueled by being closer to home.

Or I'm just saying words. Who knows. I DON'T READ COMICS.

(Although Red Son was excellent)
 

Therumancer

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Ferisar said:
Therumancer said:
But then again, that's often being done in the context and perception of the U.S. In recent years, it's increasingly hard to have pride for the U.S. on a scale, or, rather, within the demographics that may read these comics. Yeah, sure, Freedom and stuff, but given the -general- perception of the U.S. as being a military powerhouse that does often use it, warranted or not, while giving the signals of being pretty paranoid creates a hard sell on characters that stand for idealism rather than for the their realistic depictions.
Similarly, it's not hard to have that occur on characters which aren't anywhere near the U.S. because their nation's perception by those same readers is a myth. Of course it's funny/admirable when a USSR Ruski superhero does "I Super Russian, Communism Gulag, hoho /tonguecheek" nonsense. It's all a myth to enjoy, even by someone who's from that country, because it gets exaggerated to the point of silliness, while providing the (majority) of readers from the U.S. and the such a very vibrant amusement park ride. At least that's my take on it based on what you've said. It's hard to have the same response be applied to multiple countries when those countries, globally, tend to be extremely different.

Also proooobably important to note that the majority of the "big" comics are written in the U.S. (afaik), thus the whole counter-culture response likely being fueled by being closer to home.

Or I'm just saying words. Who knows. I DON'T READ COMICS.

(Although Red Son was excellent)
No, I suppose there is some truth to what your saying. As I pointed out myself I believe it's largely that you have the left wing in the US controlling a lot of the media, and embracing a sort of socialist and "peace at any price" attitude. Political correctness has gotten to the point where in general you pretty much can't portray anything that isn't a Zombie, Space Alien, or white American as a bad guy without having someone inevitably get upset. You don't even have to get cartoonishly evil about it, just be accurate about who your dealing with for the most part.

A big part of my point though is that we generally don't do positive portrayals of patriots unless they come from other countries. Again there is a difference between some cartoonish "Boris and Natasha" portrayal of say Russia and how it's come across at times with say Colossus who has on a number of occasions done the whole "Russian Ultra Patriot" thing rather than simply being some Russian guy on the team without anything buffoonish being done with him.

As far as idealism goes, well the problem is less that, than the politics of those who largely control the media and produce/approve the writers feeling the need to use the media as what amounts to an attack platform for their own political agenda which is hardly patriotic.

For example, let's look at the basics of "The War On Terror". The left wing by and large embrace a peace at any price methodology and an unrealistic set of expectations when an actual war happens. The US going to war, no matter for what reason, or how well justified, is something it pretty much comes out to oppose. This lead to things like the whole "Civil War Event" being turned into an analogy for it, and Captain America pretty much going rogue as a result and fighting against the country, so the now-derailed storyline can try and make knocks on the whole US military industrial complex. What's more on the rare occasions when actual issues of terrorism linked to anything resembling the real world (as opposed to some fictional group like Hydra) Cap turns into a hand-wringer.

To put things into perspective, Captain America is a dude who is supposed to know about war, and what's more he's a guy who was a commando/black ops guy for all intents and purposes. Someone does something like 9/11 or whatever, realistically Cap is the guy who isn't going to be saying "let's coddle Muslims and pursue with with restraint" he's
the guy who is going to be saying "drop me and a bunch of commandoes into Iraq/Afghanistan/Where ever and I'll bring down the guys responsible when an army would fail. Granted the real world doesn't have Captain America (the world would probably be a much better place on a lot of levels with super heroes for this reason) but the guy would be cutting a swathe through The Middle East, making quippy now considered "racist" comments about the enemy to get under their skin (much like how he and Nick Fury would call the Nazis all kinds of names, starting with say "Krauts"). That's the proper ultra-patriotic Captain America reaction to these kinds of events. It's literally what he became Captain America to do, and did for years before the whole "Commie Smasher" bit which was retconned. Comics writers won't go there though because it intrudes on their "peace any any price" politics. Rather they prefer to blame the US, so instead weave a story that has Captain America acting out of character and pretty much attacking the government because golly gee, the government wants people to be held accountable for their actions. Although to be fair the finale of that event DID have Cap surrendering when he realized he had become exactly the thing the government was concerned about when he brought Namor and his army into it. But well... I'm rambling, if you haven't read it you don't know what I'm talking about.


To put things into perspective, the perception of the US as being some kind of aggressive military bully is largely perpetuated by Americans through the media and things like comics, and I mean when we say it, are our critics going to disagree to something that plays to their advantage? For the most part we spend trillions of dollars on military weapons we don't even use. It's the height of irony that we downsized our military based on the idea that if the US ever really went to war we would outright demolish any nation/culture that crossed us. We'd render opposing militaries obsolete so quickly, and wipe out so many civilians so quickly with our weapons, that our enemy would literally vanish overnight. Indeed we've got tons of bombs, missiles, and other weapons that can wipe out entire towns and villages without even having to go nuclear. Things like Daisy Cutters and Fuel Air bombs are horrifying. When we've actually intervened militarily though we've left all of this stuff off the playing field. For "The War On Terror" we were so moral that we pretty much tried to re-build a conventional military force, calling in reserves never intended to go overseas, building up armed hummers and such which we didn't have because we figured we'd never go in to fight man to man in a war like this, and all so moralists would be happy. We of course accomplished nothing. Yet of course those same moralists demonize the US from within the country and pretty much write the material for our international critics.

Arguably the whole point of a "Super Patriot" is to do what the US should be doing in events just like this. Captain America for example was literally designed as a wartime icon. Right now the guy should be portrayed as say punching out Russians on the Crimian front, leading commandoes into North Korea, thwarting Muslim nuclear scientists in Iran, or protecting Chinese civilians against the excesses and human rights violations of their government. Doing the things a real person/commando couldn't do because you know, he's a super hero. Part of why he sort of fell apart with the whole "commie smashing" thing is that he doesn't really work as well in a purely domestic sense. Rather the guy who spearheaded war against the Nazis under the current breed of writers is actually written as being some kind of borderline hippie protestor who in the big picture seems to spend as much or more time fighting the authorities as he does actual national enemies.

HOWEVER, that's kind of my point, some people, including the writers, find that kind of thing offensive and against their politics. Thus you don't see any heroes really doing that, if anything the "heroes" stop people from doing that
it seems. Someone showing patriotism for another country oftentimes critiques the US so it's allowed, but send Cap in to say kick Putin's teeth down his throat? Almost unheard of (though in World War II it was okay if he say punched Hitler or equivilents to third reich leaders).
 

VanTesla

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Gorfias said:
Batman and Cap have fought!


There was company crossover too. I think it was a draw between the two. Can't remember the name of the series. Stuff like, Wolverine kick's Lobo's butt happens too. Big red guy trying to settle an argument with a big blue guy.

Superman is a leader for the JLA. He deserves props. I think he has the power, character and experiences to be a better leader than Cap.

Course, depends upon the genre. The movie characters in a heads on: Cap wins big time. Comics: Superman.
So Batman fought Cap to a standstill. Spider-Man Killed batman, my takeaway: Spider-Man > Cap or Bats.
Well in the civil war arc of marvel comics Capt was doing good damage to Pete when they faced off for a few seconds when you consider that at that time Parker had the Iron Spider Armor which enhanced his attack capability and resistance. Also during that time Pete had more control over his spider powers in that he could create his own webbing from his body, his strength was higher than his original self, and he had a deeper understanding and control over his spider senses. Both fought not to kill though and both where holding back so it still is unknown who would have won the fight. Cap did leave after a certain point, but before that he was still fighting and hitting Spider-Man while his shield was webbed and the only injury he received was a small cut on his cheek that Spider-Man got off from one of his mechanical stingers.

I do think in a statistical match up Spider-Man wins with no question, but as most people know in comics and in many cases in life they are not the absolute outcome. Also Capt has the advantage in battle tactics, fighting skill, and has faced foes that are more skilled and powerful than Spider-Man and came out ahead. If we are using old school Spider-Man that value on his victory would be even less likely than the fight where he had more control over his spider abilities and the Iron Spider suit. Capt can also take much more of a beating than I would say is even possible for Batman since he has survived punchs from characters that are in the 100+ ton range and survived. Batman did get hit by Superman and live but Supes was not trying to kill him and held back enough even though it did do a huge amount of damage as his ribs and the place he was hit where caved in... Also Capt can lift about 2 tons, he can heal minor wounds in just a days time, major wounds like a shattered body in about a weeks time, can dodge gun fire to where he can see the bullets coming individually, and Spider-Man in the fight stated that one of Caps punchs feels like multiple blows instead of just one punch.

p.s. Sorry for the long winded post it is late and I'm a bit out of it so I think I will go to sleep now...
 

VanTesla

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Happiness Assassin said:
Didn't Superman at one point renounce his American citizenship in protest against the US government? I couldn't help but be reminded of that when watching this.
Then he got it back and after that the 52 reboot wiped all that away and made Supes more emo. Well in my view he acts and looks like it now...
 

VanTesla

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Therumancer said:
Ferisar said:
Therumancer said:
But then again, that's often being done in the context and perception of the U.S. In recent years, it's increasingly hard to have pride for the U.S. on a scale, or, rather, within the demographics that may read these comics. Yeah, sure, Freedom and stuff, but given the -general- perception of the U.S. as being a military powerhouse that does often use it, warranted or not, while giving the signals of being pretty paranoid creates a hard sell on characters that stand for idealism rather than for the their realistic depictions.
Similarly, it's not hard to have that occur on characters which aren't anywhere near the U.S. because their nation's perception by those same readers is a myth. Of course it's funny/admirable when a USSR Ruski superhero does "I Super Russian, Communism Gulag, hoho /tonguecheek" nonsense. It's all a myth to enjoy, even by someone who's from that country, because it gets exaggerated to the point of silliness, while providing the (majority) of readers from the U.S. and the such a very vibrant amusement park ride. At least that's my take on it based on what you've said. It's hard to have the same response be applied to multiple countries when those countries, globally, tend to be extremely different.

Also proooobably important to note that the majority of the "big" comics are written in the U.S. (afaik), thus the whole counter-culture response likely being fueled by being closer to home.

Or I'm just saying words. Who knows. I DON'T READ COMICS.

(Although Red Son was excellent)
No, I suppose there is some truth to what your saying. As I pointed out myself I believe it's largely that you have the left wing in the US controlling a lot of the media, and embracing a sort of socialist and "peace at any price" attitude. Political correctness has gotten to the point where in general you pretty much can't portray anything that isn't a Zombie, Space Alien, or white American as a bad guy without having someone inevitably get upset. You don't even have to get cartoonishly evil about it, just be accurate about who your dealing with for the most part.

A big part of my point though is that we generally don't do positive portrayals of patriots unless they come from other countries. Again there is a difference between some cartoonish "Boris and Natasha" portrayal of say Russia and how it's come across at times with say Colossus who has on a number of occasions done the whole "Russian Ultra Patriot" thing rather than simply being some Russian guy on the team without anything buffoonish being done with him.

As far as idealism goes, well the problem is less that, than the politics of those who largely control the media and produce/approve the writers feeling the need to use the media as what amounts to an attack platform for their own political agenda which is hardly patriotic.

For example, let's look at the basics of "The War On Terror". The left wing by and large embrace a peace at any price methodology and an unrealistic set of expectations when an actual war happens. The US going to war, no matter for what reason, or how well justified, is something it pretty much comes out to oppose. This lead to things like the whole "Civil War Event" being turned into an analogy for it, and Captain America pretty much going rogue as a result and fighting against the country, so the now-derailed storyline can try and make knocks on the whole US military industrial complex. What's more on the rare occasions when actual issues of terrorism linked to anything resembling the real world (as opposed to some fictional group like Hydra) Cap turns into a hand-wringer.

To put things into perspective, Captain America is a dude who is supposed to know about war, and what's more he's a guy who was a commando/black ops guy for all intents and purposes. Someone does something like 9/11 or whatever, realistically Cap is the guy who isn't going to be saying "let's coddle Muslims and pursue with with restraint" he's
the guy who is going to be saying "drop me and a bunch of commandoes into Iraq/Afghanistan/Where ever and I'll bring down the guys responsible when an army would fail. Granted the real world doesn't have Captain America (the world would probably be a much better place on a lot of levels with super heroes for this reason) but the guy would be cutting a swathe through The Middle East, making quippy now considered "racist" comments about the enemy to get under their skin (much like how he and Nick Fury would call the Nazis all kinds of names, starting with say "Krauts"). That's the proper ultra-patriotic Captain America reaction to these kinds of events. It's literally what he became Captain America to do, and did for years before the whole "Commie Smasher" bit which was retconned. Comics writers won't go there though because it intrudes on their "peace any any price" politics. Rather they prefer to blame the US, so instead weave a story that has Captain America acting out of character and pretty much attacking the government because golly gee, the government wants people to be held accountable for their actions. Although to be fair the finale of that event DID have Cap surrendering when he realized he had become exactly the thing the government was concerned about when he brought Namor and his army into it. But well... I'm rambling, if you haven't read it you don't know what I'm talking about.


To put things into perspective, the perception of the US as being some kind of aggressive military bully is largely perpetuated by Americans through the media and things like comics, and I mean when we say it, are our critics going to disagree to something that plays to their advantage? For the most part we spend trillions of dollars on military weapons we don't even use. It's the height of irony that we downsized our military based on the idea that if the US ever really went to war we would outright demolish any nation/culture that crossed us. We'd render opposing militaries obsolete so quickly, and wipe out so many civilians so quickly with our weapons, that our enemy would literally vanish overnight. Indeed we've got tons of bombs, missiles, and other weapons that can wipe out entire towns and villages without even having to go nuclear. Things like Daisy Cutters and Fuel Air bombs are horrifying. When we've actually intervened militarily though we've left all of this stuff off the playing field. For "The War On Terror" we were so moral that we pretty much tried to re-build a conventional military force, calling in reserves never intended to go overseas, building up armed hummers and such which we didn't have because we figured we'd never go in to fight man to man in a war like this, and all so moralists would be happy. We of course accomplished nothing. Yet of course those same moralists demonize the US from within the country and pretty much write the material for our international critics.

Arguably the whole point of a "Super Patriot" is to do what the US should be doing in events just like this. Captain America for example was literally designed as a wartime icon. Right now the guy should be portrayed as say punching out Russians on the Crimian front, leading commandoes into North Korea, thwarting Muslim nuclear scientists in Iran, or protecting Chinese civilians against the excesses and human rights violations of their government. Doing the things a real person/commando couldn't do because you know, he's a super hero. Part of why he sort of fell apart with the whole "commie smashing" thing is that he doesn't really work as well in a purely domestic sense. Rather the guy who spearheaded war against the Nazis under the current breed of writers is actually written as being some kind of borderline hippie protestor who in the big picture seems to spend as much or more time fighting the authorities as he does actual national enemies.

HOWEVER, that's kind of my point, some people, including the writers, find that kind of thing offensive and against their politics. Thus you don't see any heroes really doing that, if anything the "heroes" stop people from doing that
it seems. Someone showing patriotism for another country oftentimes critiques the US so it's allowed, but send Cap in to say kick Putin's teeth down his throat? Almost unheard of (though in World War II it was okay if he say punched Hitler or equivilents to third reich leaders).
Not to get to much into the argument on Left vs Right in the USA, but both sides are at this point and time to me out of control when it comes to the elected officials in the current office. To me both sides are getting more extreme on their own issues and rather have it divided with the mind set of choose a side or your against us... The propaganda on both sides is so huge that people will just take a side and defend it even when the core ideas that are preached on either side are actually not used and both just do what is most self serving for their party. Both sides say they are for the USA people, but when they speak they don't mean the people of the country, but their funders. I am sure there are some good left and right wing people in gov't that want to serve the country well, but I believe they are a minority as of now and will be as long as the USA people keep being closed minded on sticking with a side even when that side is not doing the job it was elected to do.

You would think with information being more available in this day and age we could reduce the propaganda, corruption, and hate, but instead people are constantly misusing, abusing, fabricating, propagating, and overall using our knew technology to dumb us down... If we want to change our problems we need to unite as a country be we have different opinions on certain matters we will never fix this mess until we stop acting like puppets for the left and right that is played out in this country to divide us... I think I ramble way to much and so now I will go get some sleep... My apologies for the crazed rant.
 

gorfias

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Therumancer said:
Yes the two fought at the end of the so called "Amalgam Era" and the fight was never concluded. The two godlike beings basically looked at all of the creations and decided they were all beautiful and not to bother to go through with the whole "only one world can survive" thing and just ended it. It was less a draw than the duel that was never fully resolved due to the needs of the story.

The lead up to the fight when you had the two universes meeting (without being combined) and they were battling each other's rogues gallery in brief snippits was more amusing. There was a scene of Bane about to snap Cap's back "Knightfall" style only to have Cap's shield richochet and nail him in the back of the head... and stuff like that done to be cute. :)
Oh yeah, and we ended up with hybrid characters like this batman/wolverine mix


Rather than Cap vs. Superman, just mix the two!
 

zvate

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Superman could balance the budget by going out and bringing back a gold asteroid the size of the moon (or a variety of small rare materials so as not to mess up the economy. You want health care, bam... you want nuclear missile defense, bap... you want free power, set up a giant gerbil wheel attached to a generator and their you go. That debate doesn't interest me; the one I want to see:

Who is the more patriotic character: Captain America or The Red Skull? (or maybe Dr. Doom because the Red Skull's often been retconned as non-nazi these days)... Because sometimes Patriotism is both bad and evil.
 

Firefilm

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KaZuYa said:
What about Wonder Woman? I would of thought the Lasso of Truth would of been the perfect tool in the world of Politics.

Though an American friend of mine said while voting in a black man for president showed how far they had come he doubted he would ever seen a female president in his life time, he thought it was actually seen by many in the political circles as a much bigger taboo.
Watch the film Lincoln when the opposition to making slavery illegal says that if black's are free how long till they can vote and if black's can vote how long till women can vote "UPROAR"! women being allowed to vote treated far worse than black's.
 

Lhianon

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i am scared by people that think patriotism is a good thing.
you know which people are really patriotic right now? the russians, the chineese and the people of north korea.
you know which populus was really patriotic in the recent past? the citizens of germany during WW1 + 2, the japaneese people during the same period.
we really should stop using such a useless concept like patriotism, it usually only serves to get people to do stuff they would not have done if they had gotten the time to properly think about it (not dissimilar to religion). instead, could we please start thinking about what would be, in the long run, be the best for humanity as a whole?

Therumancer said:
-snip-
Now, again, I won't get into government morality, or what's good or bad here, I'm just saying that the US is probably the least patriotic/nationalist country on earth despite pretensions to the opposite by the counter culture.
-snip-.
while this may be something that, in your opinion, is true, it is not true in an absolute, objective way like you phrase it. simply compare schools in europe to schools in the USA, in most european countries nobody cares about the oath to the flag; in germany you even get detention if you sing the first verse of the national anthem ("germany, germany above all else") because it got heavily missused under the nazis.

you heavily stress the point that in recent comicbook-history, the captn sometimes behaved like a terrorist. while i have not read the issues in question, may i point out that the french revolutionaries as well as the independence movement in north america were viewed as terrorism by the ruling class at that time? furthermore, isn't the point of the second amendment to give the citizens of the USA the tools as well as the legal justification to overthrow a tyranical government that uses it branches to get rid of the freedom american citizens fought for? because if you keep that in mind, a captain america that takes action against a government that slowly becomes similar to the one in "1984" would be one of the more patriotic things he could have done.

i apologize for gramatical and orthographic errors, english is not my first language.
 

softclocks

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Neither of these are associated with America anymore, none of them are particularly patriotic.

Vivi22 said:
jdarksun said:
And, yeah, Spider-man is smarter, stronger, and faster than Captain America. I just don't see Steve Rogers winning that fight.
All of the power stuff is true, but Spider-Man is untrained as a fighter, not an expert in tactics at all, and Cap regularly holds his own against stronger opponents because he is a trained soldier and tactical mastermind. It'd be a close fight, but I think Cap could potentially take it.

There's a good reason the weakest guy in the Avengers on paper is also their leader.
Untrained as a fighter? He's got like 10 years of training on his back now, not that any martial artist would effectively train someone who fights like a spider :|

Hell, Cap's one of the many people who have trained him.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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VanTesla said:
[

Not to get to much into the argument on Left vs Right in the USA, but both sides are at this point and time to me out of control when it comes to the elected officials in the current office. To me both sides are getting more extreme on their own issues and rather have it divided with the mind set of choose a side or your against us... The propaganda on both sides is so huge that people will just take a side and defend it even when the core ideas that are preached on either side are actually not used and both just do what is most self serving for their party. Both sides say they are for the USA people, but when they speak they don't mean the people of the country, but their funders. I am sure there are some good left and right wing people in gov't that want to serve the country well, but I believe they are a minority as of now and will be as long as the USA people keep being closed minded on sticking with a side even when that side is not doing the job it was elected to do.

You would think with information being more available in this day and age we could reduce the propaganda, corruption, and hate, but instead people are constantly misusing, abusing, fabricating, propagating, and overall using our knew technology to dumb us down... If we want to change our problems we need to unite as a country be we have different opinions on certain matters we will never fix this mess until we stop acting like puppets for the left and right that is played out in this country to divide us... I think I ramble way to much and so now I will go get some sleep... My apologies for the crazed rant.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm critical of both parties. It's just that on an issue like this one the problem is with the left wing. To be honest one thing about these forums is that the areas of politics where I lean leftward rarely come up. Though admittedly I am registered Republican and do tend to wind up empathizing with that philosophy first, and feel it's more likely to be "saved" and turned into something constructive than the left wing which I feel is increasingly delusional.

In the overall scope of a discussion like this the dark side of the right wing is that they are all for economically screwing the average person for the benefit of the top 1%. The right wing is largely responsible for a lot of the problems with banks, corporations, and other issues. The thing is that these kinds of issues rarely come up in comics, at least not here. See if Captain America wants to punch out some corrupt financier or otherwise bring him down that's absolutely fine with me. Indeed comics have in the past used evil CEOs as stock villains, Marvel for example has "Roxxon Oil" as their go-to evil corporation, and the oil industry is actually not a bad choice for showing all that's wrong with out of control business interests and how they negatively impact society. HOWEVER, in the scope of this discussion we're talking about the representation of the country, it's ideals, and it's interests as in patriotism. This involves doing things like attacking our enemies, and pursueing our interests in a way that makes those aspects of corruption less necessary.

To again use "The War On Terror" as an example again, both sides of the political spectrum can be blamed there. The left wing can be blamed for derailing the entire war effort, pushing a peace at any price agenda, demanding we do not use our weapons properly or try and break the cultures we were facing, and actually lionizing/protecting Muslims in order to try and prevent them from being targets and rally the people against pushing the war. The right wing on the other hand became interested in running the war to make money, and was more concerned over things like government rebuilding and security contracts, so they could be passed off to friends and donors in exchange for kickbacks.

Now, despite how that might look the point here isn't to argue left vs. right wing, and I'm not going to go any further on this. Instead I'm going to bring up the issue of a patriotic super hero. The purpose of a character like Captain America is to show the country more or less on track and point out what the war is about. The War On Terror was in response to long-term Muslim aggression, which eventually resulting in suicide attacks on both military and civilian targets. Captain America's point is to say "this is about kicking the butts of Muslims, and making an example out of them so nobody ever does this again". He's very much all about the violence. He's the guy who should be running around making comments about ragheads much like he called Germans crouts, as he leads Commandoes on raids of Baghdad, kills dudes doing things like Chemical Ali did, hunts down terrorist cells, and otherwise does everything to keep things on track and with a clear definition of who our enemies are and why.

Indeed this is exactly what Captain America was created for, during World War II, a lot of people didn't want the US involved in the war. A lot of people even sympathized with Hitler and German culture, the dude was an international man of the year for crying out loud. There were also a lot of politics involved, going back to economics, and some valid points that the treaties that ended World War I went too far given that Germany was still allowed to remain a strong country, and made this kind of backlash inevitable. What's more the Allies engaged in all kinds of ugly things to win the war, guys like Arthur "Bomber" Harris (who was a Brit) were considered monsters equal to the worst of the villains of the third reich by the other side. The idea is for Captain America to bring it back down to basics, and say "these guys are bad, they are against America... and thus we kick their ass and make it cool to do so" while making it clear it's un-American to disagree with that point of view while we're at war. The very fact that the left wing has issues with this kind of thing, and doesn't "get" the purpose of something like Captain America on a lot of levels summarizes exactly the problem with the left wing. The trick to Captain America is that he is right as he does this, not a patritic douchenozzle... and really the left wing by definition presents patriots AS douchenozzles. Look at the attacks people endure just for supporting "The War On Terror" even in it's politically castrated form.

Now that said, someone like Captain America would also properly be used to point out problems with the right wing as well, as punching out/arresting politicians involved in rebuilding and profiteering schemes. He'd properly oppose something like "Blackwater Security" not so much because they killed Muslims (which is more or less what your supposed to be doing in a war) but because by definition this is the job of the US military, and one should not have a bunch of corporate thugs running around playing soldier simply so the government can pay their bosses. The whole bureaucratic mess groups like that running around doing their own things was the source of countless problems... and again the situation that enabled them was largely because the US wasn't fighting a real war (go in, decimate the area and break the culture, force the survivors to agree to our terms, go home and forget about it other than to point to what happened to this area of the world when someone broke enough deals with the US and attacked it).
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Lhianon said:
i am scared by people that think patriotism is a good thing.
you know which people are really patriotic right now? the russians, the chineese and the people of north korea.
you know which populus was really patriotic in the recent past? the citizens of germany during WW1 + 2, the japaneese people during the same period.
we really should stop using such a useless concept like patriotism, it usually only serves to get people to do stuff they would not have done if they had gotten the time to properly think about it (not dissimilar to religion). instead, could we please start thinking about what would be, in the long run, be the best for humanity as a whole?

Therumancer said:
-snip-
Now, again, I won't get into government morality, or what's good or bad here, I'm just saying that the US is probably the least patriotic/nationalist country on earth despite pretensions to the opposite by the counter culture.
-snip-.
while this may be something that, in your opinion, is true, it is not true in an absolute, objective way like you phrase it. simply compare schools in europe to schools in the USA, in most european countries nobody cares about the oath to the flag; in germany you even get detention if you sing the first verse of the national anthem ("germany, germany above all else") because it got heavily missused under the nazis.

you heavily stress the point that in recent comicbook-history, the captn sometimes behaved like a terrorist. while i have not read the issues in question, may i point out that the french revolutionaries as well as the independence movement in north america were viewed as terrorism by the ruling class at that time? furthermore, isn't the point of the second amendment to give the citizens of the USA the tools as well as the legal justification to overthrow a tyranical government that uses it branches to get rid of the freedom american citizens fought for? because if you keep that in mind, a captain america that takes action against a government that slowly becomes similar to the one in "1984" would be one of the more patriotic things he could have done.

i apologize for gramatical and orthographic errors, english is not my first language.

Patriotism is a good thing when it comes from the right people (big smile), at least up until the point where we unify the world into a single global culture and one world government, but that's an entirely different discussion. To be honest the reaction I normally get when I talk about globalism and a single world meta-culture and government tends to prove my point. You'll rapidly find tons of people going off about how "OMG, you can't expect everyone to hold to the same standards and live at one" which of course amounts to patriotism in a way. Globalism is an endgame but until that point certain nations, especially those with an idealogy that could lead to a functional base for a world government, need to pursue their own agendas, and make sure that when the final wars do happen they are in the best position possible. What's more the more unity one causes through the simple spread of ideas, the less violence ultimately needed in building a single world government, which is necessary for the continued survival of humanity. I've explained why before (and mostly people wind up agreeing with me, even if begrudginglyly) but explaining the necessity of that would derail this conversation away from patriotism and super heroes and more towards globalism, resource shortages, overpopulation, and similar things.

As a general rule overthrowing a government you disagree with is not generally a good thing, especially when you can work within it. I for example do not consider the socialist/communist takeovers of Russia, China, and even France to ultimately be good things for example, and on a lot of levels represent exactly why patriotism and opposing ideologies that lead to that are necessary.

More on topic though, the thing is that in "1984" (which a lot of people like to reference, but few have read, admittedly for me it was a long time ago and it does run together with a lot of similar works like "Faranheight 451" which is actually what a lot of people seem to be talking about when they mention "1984") dealt with a societal construct where everything, including the existence of an actual "big brother", and the war with "Eurasia" was questionable at various points in the book. In comparison the threats we see nowadays actually do exist, China's human rights violations are a matter of record, Russia has invaded Georgia and Crimea, you do have Theocrats plotting the destruction of the Western world (Iran has even referred to us officially as "The Great Satan" in diplomatic meetings which in of itself is disturbing), and of course again with China we have them not only building up a military but intruding on US allies over control of island chains, and fishing waters. All of these threats exist. As do some of our initial promises to nations like Ukraine that we would protect them should Russia try and invade or re-absorb them (at the time we didn't insist they officially join NATO for diplomatic reasons, as we wanted to encourage more nations to break away from the USSR and become indepdent like they wanted, as opposed to feeling like their only option was to trade one empire for another).

It should also be noted that a lot of the problems that lead to things like "1984", the old movie "Metropolis", "Faranheight 451" and various other stories largely come from overpopulation, combined with resource shorages, which of course leads to tighter control for humanity to survive. After a while it does raise the question where "is surviving like this once your realize it, really worth it?". One of the reasons I go off about globalization, and of course the needs for a massive war that eliminates 90% of the population, followed by tight population control to prevent things from going beyond that point, is specifically because by doing that these kinds of scenarios can be avoided. Less people, means higher standards of living for each, and less need for conflict. Without there being multiple nations and cultures to get paranoid of each other technology can thus advance into areas like space travel and exploration, and the population can slowly expand as our resources and living space also do. If we keep going down this path, yeah, we're going to create "1984" type governments, and then finally wind up depleting resources to the point where we can't save ourselves if we want to, or sustain our population even under those terms, eventually we'll wind up seeing the mass deaths equivalent to a huge war like I suggest, except there won't be any resources left to encourage. Humans will carry on as savages until the sun finally goes Nova and we all die... The End. I don't articulate much of this well, but again it has little to do with patriotism or the subject at hand.

Also my own English skills aren't great, so don't worry about yours. Your fairly coherent so it's no big thing.