That jingle will now be in our heads all day, thank you. What was the debate you were in?SilverStuddedSquirre said:Poor, Poor Spidey. Everything in that story makes me wonder if it was written by the people behind "Other M." Good show again guys! And I have recently been in a huge debate, the outcome of which is utterly meaningless, and I wonder if you chaps might Like to weigh in on it. I think it could be a fun show. "See Kid Beats Ocarina Of Time in 20 mins"
/edit/ Is he strong? Listen chump, he's got Radio-active spunk! Hey There! There goes the Spider man!
Firefilm said:That jingle will now be in our heads all day, thank you. What was the debate you were in?SilverStuddedSquirre said:Poor, Poor Spidey. Everything in that story makes me wonder if it was written by the people behind "Other M." Good show again guys! And I have recently been in a huge debate, the outcome of which is utterly meaningless, and I wonder if you chaps might Like to weigh in on it. I think it could be a fun show. "See Kid Beats Ocarina Of Time in 20 mins"
/edit/ Is he strong? Listen chump, he's got Radio-active spunk! Hey There! There goes the Spider man!
ObsidianJones said:The thing about Spiderman is no one ever let him grow or change.
Batman is the most famous reboot.
Wolverine went from villian to occasional hero to the best fighter that ever lived and is on every team.
Captain America went from being the walking Billboard and loud speaker of how great America is to being disenchanted with his nation and still fighting for a dream that he doesn't see any more.
Superman went from Boy Scout to 'I'm denying my God-dom because I just don't want it'
I don't even want to count all the changes the Hulk went through, from Professor to Savage to Future to Split from Banner Hulk to Windshield Wiper Repairman Hulk (the most Helpful Hulk there ever was...)
What mobility did they give Spiderman's character?
Still a picked on 'wimp', but how adults do it. Still taking shots of Spiderman. Still everything conspires to mess up in his life. No one has tried to write him really differently. No real proactive moves as Peter. No trying to become a writer or whatever. It seems like most writers say 'Parker should do this next, or this should happen to him!'. Or just dump some tragedy on his plate with him not actually growing from it, just becoming more of a sadsack.
The only time they ever let Peter assert himself is when Doc Ock is in his damn body. They've kept the early 60's and 70's mentality of "You should like me because my life is so sad and you should pity and/or relate to me" character writing and kept it almost current in the new millennium where it seems the idea is "EVERYTHING GOOD IS STUPID, AND FUCK YEAH TO EVIL!"
How was that ever going to work?
Sums it up, basically.ObsidianJones said:The thing about Spiderman is no one ever let him grow or change.
I'm not going to lie, I'm the biggest Spiderman fan. So take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt.Trishbot said:But Peter Parker "died" to me with "One More Day". It took his defining motto of "with great power comes great responsibility" and stripped all the responsibility away. Who cares about consequences if you don't even remember the mistakes you made? Who cares about responsibility when you can wish your problems away with magic? Who cares about your promises and vows to your wife (and even your aunt) when none of that matters because you can't accept responsibility for your actions?
Spider-man to me is "broken" and hasn't been fixed in several, several years. There's a reason Superior Spider-man was more enjoyable; we had a more interesting and compelling character to follow.
And that's the strange thing... Spider-man is popular in SPITE of that, because when he IS handled well, he's great.ObsidianJones said:Not actively hating his responsibility. Not having everyone actively hate him, or better yet, take actions to really prove them wrong instead of shrugging and saying "This is Spiderman's Lot in life". If he embraced Spiderman as apart of who he is just as Bruce Wayne feels that Batman isn't a costume, but his complete personality... The comics would just get more interesting.
Hell, Peter's first action EVER as Spiderman was the desire not to get involved. That lead to his defining moment of his life, sure, but every action since then seemed to be as penance instead of the genuine urge to save his world. It leads to a really wishy washy character.
... But he makes me laugh. It's a tough relationship, him and I have.
Once again, you're killing it by being so on topic.Trishbot said:And that's the strange thing... Spider-man is popular in SPITE of that, because when he IS handled well, he's great.
... But he's rarely been handled well as of late.
Marvel - and comics in general - has had a very poor track record with their characters these past several years. Spider-man got it the worst, but everyone from Wolverine to Iron Man to The Fantastic Four all got dragged through the character-derailing mud these past few years. There's a reason Marvel's Annihilation, set during the same timeframe as Civil War, was my favorite book they've put out in a decade; heroes rising to the occasion to save the universe from ultimate evil. Like heroes should. Nova, in particular, rose to be one of my favorites, buoyed by the fact he unabashedly LOVED being a hero with cool powers that could help as many people across the galaxy as he could. So of course Marvel "killed him" off and replaced him with a very Peter Parker-esque whiny kid who doesn't want the responsibility and has to ask his mom for permission to fight villains.
When Peter was "witty", he was always my favorite. I loved the post-Clone Saga era where him and Mary-Jane reestablished their lives and she was fully in support of his life (she was VERY well written at that time. Her smacking the Chameleon around their house with a baseball bat never ceases to put a smile on my face).
And I think that's why, with Peter so... unlikable and uncharismatic lately (largely due to not having Mary Jane to bounce banter off of at home), the "other" Spider-men titles picked up the slack and did it better. Spider-Girl was the perfect Spider-man book - funny, witty, heroic, fun, adventurous, romantic, silly, intense, action-packed. Spider-man 2099 rose up to give us one of the most heroic Spider-man incarnations ever. Even Flash Thompson as Venom is more "heroic" than Spider-man is largely because he became Venom because he wanted to be a hero LIKE Spider-man.
And I think that's why Doc Ock's Superior Spider-man is so good. It's fun. It's a semi-reformed villainous anti-hero trying and failing repeatedly to understand and be a true hero. We're engaged. We want to know if he'll succeed or slip up. We want to know if he can find redemption or if the comic gods above will demand he return to his expected "status quo". We strangely care more about him than we have for Peter in the past several years because, unlike Peter, he actually IS making an effort to enjoy heroism and being admired rather than feared and rejected.
We all know Peter's coming back... but, like many fans, I'm more dreading it than looking forward to it.
I love where you guys are going with this! I am a huge spidey fan - look, that's ME in the black suit and Fedora. I am also curenlty in possession of a LOT of free time. I account myself a half decent artist, what do you two say to FanFic Time?ObsidianJones said:Once again, you're killing it by being so on topic.Trishbot said:And that's the strange thing... Spider-man is popular in SPITE of that, because when he IS handled well, he's great.
... But he's rarely been handled well as of late.
Marvel - and comics in general - has had a very poor track record with their characters these past several years. Spider-man got it the worst, but everyone from Wolverine to Iron Man to The Fantastic Four all got dragged through the character-derailing mud these past few years. There's a reason Marvel's Annihilation, set during the same timeframe as Civil War, was my favorite book they've put out in a decade; heroes rising to the occasion to save the universe from ultimate evil. Like heroes should. Nova, in particular, rose to be one of my favorites, buoyed by the fact he unabashedly LOVED being a hero with cool powers that could help as many people across the galaxy as he could. So of course Marvel "killed him" off and replaced him with a very Peter Parker-esque whiny kid who doesn't want the responsibility and has to ask his mom for permission to fight villains.
When Peter was "witty", he was always my favorite. I loved the post-Clone Saga era where him and Mary-Jane reestablished their lives and she was fully in support of his life (she was VERY well written at that time. Her smacking the Chameleon around their house with a baseball bat never ceases to put a smile on my face).
And I think that's why, with Peter so... unlikable and uncharismatic lately (largely due to not having Mary Jane to bounce banter off of at home), the "other" Spider-men titles picked up the slack and did it better. Spider-Girl was the perfect Spider-man book - funny, witty, heroic, fun, adventurous, romantic, silly, intense, action-packed. Spider-man 2099 rose up to give us one of the most heroic Spider-man incarnations ever. Even Flash Thompson as Venom is more "heroic" than Spider-man is largely because he became Venom because he wanted to be a hero LIKE Spider-man.
And I think that's why Doc Ock's Superior Spider-man is so good. It's fun. It's a semi-reformed villainous anti-hero trying and failing repeatedly to understand and be a true hero. We're engaged. We want to know if he'll succeed or slip up. We want to know if he can find redemption or if the comic gods above will demand he return to his expected "status quo". We strangely care more about him than we have for Peter in the past several years because, unlike Peter, he actually IS making an effort to enjoy heroism and being admired rather than feared and rejected.
We all know Peter's coming back... but, like many fans, I'm more dreading it than looking forward to it.
I'm with you on the reluctance of the powers. I mean, yeah, as we all know, the obvious choice of having superpowers is Superman. Who wouldn't pick that? However, if I had to pick anyone from the mid-tier realm of heroes (actually having powers, but nothing rivaling Wonder Woman, Sentry, The Scarlet Witch, or any of the Gods), I would so pick Spiderman. Strength, speed, Spider Sense... and the web swing seems like such a fun way to get around. Spiderman has it.
However, I think what resonated with me the most is when you said Spiderman is popular in-spite of that. It made me go back and remember why I liked him as a kid. And the answer is simple. I was a geek outcast growing up. Not being taken seriously by my family or my peers. Seeing Peter go through the same thing, the same self doubt, and then put on the costume despite of it all because it was the right thing to do encouraged me. It did a lot for me, teaching me just because everyone is against you (maybe even yourself) doesn't mean you not able to do what you have to do.
And the disconnect came with time. Because I grew. And sadly, I don't have super powers. Nor don't I have the best of luck now. But I realized life isn't going to stop dumping on me, so either I have to get better and get stronger or I can let it crush me.
Spiderman has still stayed in his holding pattern, though.
Never venturing more than a few moments of being brave and self assured. Still 'Life sucks, even though on paper I'm really awesome'. Worse yet, he did always blame the costume for his faults in life. People targeting his loved ones to get to him... Ok, then try a new tactic. Don't go around in the bright red and blue, maybe. You're vastly intelligent, you're quicker than any human has a right to be, you're super strong, and you have near ESP. Why aren't you giving Batman a run for his money, Spidey? If you're afraid that the suit and the powers will bring trouble on the doorstep of those you love, then use your genius and your abilities so it won't! Imagine a new arc of comics where Spiderman learns to use his powers in a different way, becoming a different fighter and trying to involve it for the sake of using his power to the fullest of his capabilities and taking the responsibility not only to do the right thing, but making sure that his actions won't have repercussions on his loved ones.
Now please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that he should full on try to ape Batman. but He has abilities that would make for a much more efficient fighter if he learned to hone them. People would never, EVER see this man coming if he just put his mind to it. But he just rushes in like a red and blue missile. Even if he doesn't go the the super stealthy route, he can do so many more different things with his abilities that... I really don't remember seeing any comics with him training other than learning the Way of the Spider. And I don't even know if anyone kept up with that.
It goes back to the Great Power, Great Responsibility thing. He blames his power for everything. He never takes the responsibility of making his power work for him.
This here is where I'm starting to feel my loss for Spiderman comes. I mean, for two people who never talked before, who probably live on different sides of the earth who both just happen to love Spiderman (or how he is when handled properly) to sit here and nitpick at all the faults we all see while being able to offer tweaks to make it better... Why hasn't any of the writers thought of these things? Why just lump tragedy and gimmick after gimmick on top of a confused character? Why not take, I don't know, a twelve issue run when crime is light and have Spidey swing around and think about all the good he's done? How he can become more assertive. How he should become more of a hero, and less of an oddly active neighborhood watch captain who seems to be voted in against his will. Use the end of the run to actually put those views into practice via some event.
Make Spiderman become proactive in his own damn life instead of listening to sayings that kept him from evolving into his own man, and the naysayers who he saves on a consistent basis.
I know that writing for an on-going monthly (sometimes bi-monthly) comic is hard (I've done it myself), so I do understand why Marvel usually seems so hellbent on keeping things simple with the status quo and why bad writing is so prominent...SilverStuddedSquirre said:SNIPTrishbot said:SNIP