Notch: Windows 8 Could Be "Very Very Bad" for Indies

[Epona]

Hmm Valve, the owner of the biggest game store and DRM system there is and Blizzard who're one of the biggest developers both hate Windows 8. Blizzard have never touched a console, Valve we know are PC fanboys even if they have been getting better recently. The hell has Microsoft done to piss off their biggest supporters?

You are obviously unaware that Blizzard released Starcraft on the N64 and Diablo on the PS1. I also believe they had a couple of SNES games.

 

[thesilentman]

Okay, let's take it one step further. For how many of those games is it the case that the Steam activation requirement was forced onto the developer as a necessity to sell and distribute the game under any circumstance as opposed to a choice by the developer to integrate the conveniences that Steam provides into the game or also provide distribution of the game through Steam, in both which cases, Steam activation is a necessity for use of the services Steam provides? Which of those games require Steam activation, yet, they are not also distributed through Steam and do not use any Steam services? How is it that Steam has compelled these games to require Steam activation through mere fact of the existence of Steam as opposed to the game developers wanting to make use of the Steam services from within the game?

The point I'm trying to convey is that the Steam activation is the result of a choice by the developer, not a compulsion from Steam itself. Any of those developers could easily have made their game such to not integrate with any features of Steam, in which case the activation would not be required. In fact, there are a number of games that can be registered into Steam for purposes of using Steam as a game library manager, but can be played just fine without activation through Steam. However, you won't necessarily get any of the conveniences in the game that Steam provides to games that are more integrated with it. If the game makes use of Steam services, then it is only natural that it require Steam activation to access those services. That is not a compulsion; that is a design choice.

We've been using Steam as an example, but we could just as easily have used Origin, GoG, or any number of other digital distribution channels. In all those cases, distribution through any given channel is not a compulsion, it is a choice by the developer. So, no, I do not agree that we have a forced situation as yet. Until I see an EXPLICIT statement from Microsoft saying that ANY AND ALL software CANNOT be purchased and installed on Windows 8 EXCEPT via the Windows Store coupled with STRICT ENFORCEMENT of that policy, it is difficult for me to believe that Windows 8 and the Windows Store spells the doom of all other channels for game distribution and, hence, the end of Windows gaming. It is the presentation of that explicit statement backed by strict enforcement that your arguments have failed to materialize. So, I remain skeptical that Windows 8 truly represents the threat some people are claiming. I especially continue to remain skeptical of those with vested interests.

Goddamn iPhone, so hard to type.

You said that Microsoft isn't doing this now. Yeah, they may do it in the future, but THAT is what people are afraid of, jumping at the chance to pull an Apple. I said this before (somewhere else on this thread), but they only way Apple can do this because EVERYTHING is closed, except for software development. It's not right now that people are worried about, it's the future of how Microsoft uses the Store, and what they regulate.

 

[Pearwood]

You are obviously unaware that Blizzard released Starcraft on the N64 and Diablo on the PS1. I also believe they had a couple of SNES games.

No they started on the SNES too if I remember, I meant recent consoles, thought that went without saying.

 

[Epona]

You are obviously unaware that Blizzard released Starcraft on the N64 and Diablo on the PS1. I also believe they had a couple of SNES games.

No they started on the SNES too if I remember, I meant recent consoles, thought that went without saying.

I still think the best console ever made is the SNES so when you say consoles, I don't forget about the old ones. They are also thinking about bringing Diablo III to consoles.

 

[geizr]

Okay, let's take it one step further. For how many of those games is it the case that the Steam activation requirement was forced onto the developer as a necessity to sell and distribute the game under any circumstance as opposed to a choice by the developer to integrate the conveniences that Steam provides into the game or also provide distribution of the game through Steam, in both which cases, Steam activation is a necessity for use of the services Steam provides? Which of those games require Steam activation, yet, they are not also distributed through Steam and do not use any Steam services? How is it that Steam has compelled these games to require Steam activation through mere fact of the existence of Steam as opposed to the game developers wanting to make use of the Steam services from within the game?

The point I'm trying to convey is that the Steam activation is the result of a choice by the developer, not a compulsion from Steam itself. Any of those developers could easily have made their game such to not integrate with any features of Steam, in which case the activation would not be required. In fact, there are a number of games that can be registered into Steam for purposes of using Steam as a game library manager, but can be played just fine without activation through Steam. However, you won't necessarily get any of the conveniences in the game that Steam provides to games that are more integrated with it. If the game makes use of Steam services, then it is only natural that it require Steam activation to access those services. That is not a compulsion; that is a design choice.

We've been using Steam as an example, but we could just as easily have used Origin, GoG, or any number of other digital distribution channels. In all those cases, distribution through any given channel is not a compulsion, it is a choice by the developer. So, no, I do not agree that we have a forced situation as yet. Until I see an EXPLICIT statement from Microsoft saying that ANY AND ALL software CANNOT be purchased and installed on Windows 8 EXCEPT via the Windows Store coupled with STRICT ENFORCEMENT of that policy, it is difficult for me to believe that Windows 8 and the Windows Store spells the doom of all other channels for game distribution and, hence, the end of Windows gaming. It is the presentation of that explicit statement backed by strict enforcement that your arguments have failed to materialize. So, I remain skeptical that Windows 8 truly represents the threat some people are claiming. I especially continue to remain skeptical of those with vested interests.

Goddamn iPhone, so hard to type.

You said that Microsoft isn't doing this now. Yeah, they may do it in the future, but THAT is what people are afraid of, jumping at the chance to pull an Apple. I said this before (somewhere else on this thread), but they only way Apple can do this because EVERYTHING is closed, except for software development. It's not right now that people are worried about, it's the future of how Microsoft uses the Store, and what they regulate.

Pull an Apple? Even the Mac App Store doesn't restrict you from purchasing and installing applications outside of it. Even Apple is not "pulling an Apple", as you say, and it's unlikely that they will because that's when development for the platform will cease. And where was all this doomsaying when Apple "pulled an Apple" in making the Mac App Store in the first place? Has it killed development for the platform? Did Steam suddenly disappear from the Mac platform because the Mac App Store pushed it out? I'm just not seeing it. To me, the history is just not bearing any justification to the fears. Now, that doesn't mean one does not watch the situation carefully. Should the day come that Microsoft (or Apple) announces that there will be ABSOLUTELY NO means other than the corresponding store to purchase and install applications on the system, that's when people should react. Until then, in my opinion, people are simply knee-jerk reacting to speculation and pure WAG.

OT: Interesting captcha -- "words of wisdom"

 

[Pearwood]

I still think the best console ever made is the SNES so when you say consoles, I don't forget about the old ones. They are also thinking about bringing Diablo III to consoles.

Yeah I heard about that but it's after release and so far as I know it's still just a rumour so I'm not entirely convinced.

 

[Malk_Content]

Just want to point out that even though it isn't out yet (Windows 8 that is) Microsoft have already begun to buy exclusives to the Metro platform, so just like console exclusivity expect to start seeing games that can run perfectly fine on your PC (cus they are) being locked into Metro only. Yes only Metro is the walled garden, but Microsoft are going to be pretty aggressive about making sure you have to enter it to get the games you want.

 

[Thebum]

Windows 8 is a massive heap of shit and the only people who will actually use it will be old, un-tech savvy people who get it OEM on their new laptops.

According to this video not even old, un-tech savvy people are going to use it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

I haven't used windows 8 myself since I have no interest in the metro thing, but from what I've seen of windows 8 it seems very unintuitive. In my opinion hiding buttons and making operations rely on obscure mouse gestures does not make it more intuitive. But that may just be me since everyone in favor of windows 8 keeps talking about how intuitive it is.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Well I suppose we all could just not upgrade...

maybe.

Epic Ninja is epic. Windows 8 is the successor in terms of dev cycles to Vista and ME. Not a huge pedigree there. Add the fact that Win7 is amazing, and you've got yourself a nice argument for keeping 7 around for as long as we kept our XP installs.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Interesting. Windows hasn't gotten over their odd "curse".

Windows 98, good.
Windows ME, terrible.
Windows XP, started out poor but improved vastly with the service packs.
Windows Vista, bad enough that many companies and people refused to upgrade their XPs.
Windows 7, basically Vista but done right and mostly bearable.
Windows 8, being universally proclaimed as THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. THING. to happen to gaming.

What is with this, seriously? Do they have two separate teams, and one of those teams is a pack of howler monkeys?

You missed Windows 2000, which was basically the basic shell of Windows XP, and whose file structure/handler was based on Windows NT. (fun fact: The source code for Windows 2000 was leaked in 2004, which had a profound impact on XP since XP was based on Win2000)

Also, the launch version of Windows 98' was an absolute train-wreck. I remember this not for its actual launch, but because I would spend my early days of fixing computers with troubleshooting problems for users who didn't get the Win98 Upgrade Disc.
(That, and "fixing" Windows ME. Which is the technical equivalent of the tragedy of Sisyphus.)

Really, the version of Win98 that we "fondly" remember is actually Win98 Second Edition.

Uniquely, this is the first case where a Windows launch is being condemned well before the beta is even through. This would be like pissing all over Vista back when it was still codenamed "Longhorn".

 

[Jennacide]

captcha: sin, cos, tan

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME

The real question is did you try and put them in as sine, cosine, and tangent, to see if it would work?

 

[Mortons4ck]

Linux has been dominating every other facet of computing for years now. Servers, mostly Linux. Smart phones, mostly Linux. Super computers, Over 90% Linux. It's always been inevitable that at some point the OS made by humanity itself would take over the desktop as well, and it's finally ready to do so just in time for Microsoft's second huge botch job since we've entered the post-XP world. It's time people. Accept the future.

I honestly think ReactOS (also open-source) will be poised to dominate the market more so than Linux, at least for client side applications, just because it's designed to emulate windows 2000/XP so closely. It's also in the process of reverse engineering and developing its own DirectX-type API, which will be crucial for any kind take over as far as gaming PC are concerned.

The only major drawback is it's incomplete 64-bit environment. Making it an attractive option to people switching from WXP 32, but not necessarily W7 64.

 

[thelonewolf266]

Why do people treat whatever Notch says as though he is some unquestionable prophet.I like minecraft and I think its success has created a new better way to make games however the man is frankly a bit of an idiot the whole debacle over bluexephos and so on I think he has let the success or minecraft and the unwavering loyalty of some fanatic fans go to his head.I'm not saying you have to agree with me I just don't understand the worship he gets.

 

[robinkom]

Guess I'm sticking with Windows 7 unless they pull an even bigger dick move by dropping support for it almost immediately after 8 comes out. In which case, I'll force myself to learn how to operate Linux... or go hook up my Commodore 64 and pretend this shit didn't happen.

 

[Rafael Dera]

If windows 8 is going to be so bad for them they should just not develop games for it. If no one makes games for windows 8, no one upgrades to windows 8. That way everyone is happy, except maybe Microsoft.

While "possible", Microsoft and by extension PCs are the primary place for games. So companies "could" keep making games for Win 7, But those that do would take a large hit to there profits. And if Microsoft stays the course with Win 9, 10, ect, then either Linux will suddenly take off (not fucking likely) or they will be forced to change with the times.

On the linux topic: have you tried them recently? In the past, it was pretty much a "nerd's OS" (some distro's still are) but most of them (Ubuntu, Mint, Sabayon,...) offer a very compelling user interface, highly customisable (if you're into that, you don't have to (anymore)) and very functional "out of the box".
The days of having to install mp3 codecs by hand are long over! You can usually just plug in your windows game cd and play the games using wine (a windows compatibility layer, not an emulator. Almost no performance hit). Installing new software with synaptic is a breeze; and all your software is kept up to date with a single click.
The only hurdle is getting the distro, putting it on a stick and doing the install. This seems to scare people, but it really oughtn't.

Linux these days is at least as convenient an OS as windows. The only hurdle is mentality, i guess.

 

[Midnight Crossroads]

I see this as a learning opportunity. I always have been curious about Linux.

 

[Epona]

I see this as a learning opportunity. I always have been curious about Linux.

You're going to learn why Windows is the market leader. I do admit though, I haven't tried it in a few years.

 

[Andrew_C]

The ARM version of Windows 8 already restricts you to software from the Windows Store. How long before they extend that restriction to the x86/x64 versions? That is what Gabe and Notch are objecting to

I honestly think ReactOS (also open-source) will be poised to dominate the market more so than Linux, at least for client side applications, just because it's designed to emulate windows 2000/XP so closely. It's also in the process of reverse engineering and developing its own DirectX-type API, which will be crucial for any kind take over as far as gaming PC are concerned.

The only major drawback is it's incomplete 64-bit environment. Making it an attractive option to people switching from WXP 32, but not necessarily W7 64.

They're actually using the Directx and Direct3D stuff from Wine. And ReactOS is a lot less complete than you are making out. Even the x86 version is still very much Alpha software at this stage. Wine is still a better choice for running Windows software on a different platform.

 

[MammothBlade]

Why does this site leg hump everything this man says. Get over him Escapist writers. He isn't news.

I agree, I'm not particularly interested in a constant feed of Notch quotes. Though he is right this time.

Notch is a fucking retard.

Comments like this are uncalled for. I'm not a fan of Notch myself, but people could at least show a little courtesy.

That and ARM isn't the only thing that's being locked down. The windows 8 OS is not as a whole friendly to third-party developers. Having a centralised "app" store is just going to erode user freedom.

 

[LongMuckDong]

Now that Windows 8 has been criticised by Valve, Blizzard and Notch is there any PC gamer out there who isn't having some doubts about it?

All we need now is for EA to announce they think it's great and it'll become completely irredeemable in most people's eyes.

EA and Activision throwing their collective weight behind it, watch it tumble and burn..

Windows 7 4 Lyfe Son!