On Kain from Legacy of Kain and Kratos from God of War

[Cicada 5]

So I've had two video game characters on my mind as of late: Kratos of God of War and Kain of Legacy of Kain.

The two have a lot in common. They're supernaturally empowered upon death, protagonists of two long running action games and most importantly, are villain protagonists. Well Kratos was until God of War 4.

However, the two have very different reputations. Kratos is a divisive character with some liking him and others hating him. The latter crowd view him as an over-the-top, juvenile character. This changed come God of War 4, with being overall more liked than he was before.

Kain, meanwhile, has little to no hatred, with people loving him and considering him to be a charismatic and entertaining character. Yet, he and Kratos are almost the same character. Why is this?

 

[CritialGaming]

Popularity probably. Kratos reached an arguably higher level of popularity and as such he became fun to hate on, while Kain's lack of success found him as more of an indie darling.

 

[stroopwafel]

I think it's mostly the writing and the toffee-voiced Simon Tempelman that really brought Kain to life. Kratos was a more interesting character in GoW 2018 but in all other games he was just a stupid testosterone fueled caricature. Kain on the other hand every time he appeared you could expect some poetic one-liner. What games have lines like this:

''I awoke to the pain of a new existence, in a dank womb of darkness and decay''.

Just brilliant.

 

[CaitSeith]

Yet, he and Kratos are almost the same character. Why is this?

Probably because they aren't the same. Kain is more consistent than Kratos. Both their first games were tradegies. But while Kain ended up embracing the evil and becoming the bad guy (cannonically, you had the choice of sacrificing yourself, but the ending wasn't as badass); Kratos ended in suicide and redemption.

Kratos was sent to kill a god that crossed the line. How does the second game start? Kratos crosses the same line. He was aware what Ares angered the gods at the end of the first game; and in the second he lacks that awareness for no reason.

Kain became evil, but he doesn't deny it; he owns it like a boss (and as the main NPC antagonist in several games).

 

[jademunky]

Kain, meanwhile, has little to no hatred, with people loving him and considering him to be a charismatic and entertaining character. Yet, he and Kratos are almost the same character. Why is this?

Kain is honest about himself, about who he is and what he does. He knows he is the bad guy and does not allow the fact that his enemies are even worse tempt him into self-righteousness.

Kratos is the worst kind of hypocrite and the fact that the devs do not see that makes him completely insufferable. I had my mouth open in shock as I watched the ending to GOW 3 as the game told me things about my character and actions that I knew were lies. The simple fact is that the God of War series does not present Kratos as a villain protagonist, which I could totally respect and get behind. Rather it tries to insist that he is some tragic hero that we should totally identify with and have sympathy for.

And that is why I will never play God of War 4. It would be like if Game of Thrones, during season 5 decided that the real hero of the whole story was Ramsay Bolton and tried to spend the rest of the story rehabilitating the character.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Kratos isn't a character, he's a plot device to drive an endless killing gameplay. His biggest change ever was growing a beard. He's still the same blatantly unreasonable, crazy, divorced from reality mad man.

 

[RJ 17]

I think it's mostly the writing and the toffee-voiced Simon Tempelman that really brought Kain to life. Kratos was a more interesting character in GoW 2018 but in all other games he was just a stupid testosterone fueled caricature. Kain on the other hand every time he appeared you could expect some poetic one-liner. What games have lines like this:

''I awoke to the pain of a new existence, in a dank womb of darkness and decay''.

Just brilliant.

Kain also gave me my victory shout every time I was in a group that downed a raid boss in an MMO:
"VAE VICTIS!"
:^)

 

[Cicada 5]

Kain, meanwhile, has little to no hatred, with people loving him and considering him to be a charismatic and entertaining character. Yet, he and Kratos are almost the same character. Why is this?

Kain is honest about himself, about who he is and what he does. He knows he is the bad guy and does not allow the fact that his enemies are even worse tempt him into self-righteousness.

Kratos is the worst kind of hypocrite and the fact that the devs do not see that makes him completely insufferable. I had my mouth open in shock as I watched the ending to GOW 3 as the game told me things about my character and actions that I knew were lies. The simple fact is that the God of War series does not present Kratos as a villain protagonist, which I could totally respect and get behind. Rather it tries to insist that he is some tragic hero that we should totally identify with and have sympathy for.

And that is why I will never play God of War 4. It would be like if Game of Thrones, during season 5 decided that the real hero of the whole story was Ramsay Bolton and tried to spend the rest of the story rehabilitating the character.

Imagine you were raised since the age of seven to be a ruthless warrior in the most brutal military regimen in the world. All you know is to fight and to never back down no matter the cost. Then one day you are literally at the end of your rope and make a plea to the God you basically have been brainwashed to serve, and in return he tricks you into killing your own wife and daughter in a bid to sever your last remaining ties to what little humanity you had left.

Then one day you set out to end the immortal being who stripped it from you, but not before having your entire body covered with your dead wife and kid?s ashes so you are forced to be reminded of your terrible deeds every step of the way there. Even in sleep there is no escape from the nightmares. Then when you finally fulfill your goal of vengeance, nothing changes. You?re still haunted by the past and the remaining gods of Olympus offer no hope of redemption, so you try to kill yourself.

But no, the gods of course won?t allow that to happen, as you are the half human son of Zeus and have too much work left to do for them. All the while they string you further along with the promise of ending your nightmares after doing just this ?one last thing? after another, then after another, then after another, until you are driven further and further into the madness that is realizing they never intended to fulfill any promise and have simply been using you to do their bidding. Furthermore now your own dad tries to kill you because gee, who would?ve thought messing with your kid?s head this whole time would turn him against you huh?

Meanwhile Athena has also been playing you like a fiddle in a secret personal bid to usurpe dear old dad as ruler of Olympus, while pretending to be on your side as you?re further encouraged to slaughter your way up the pantheon to get to him. Then, when you finally do and take back the power, you *gasp* hand it over to the people while giving Athena the finger as you attempt to kill yourself a final time to release the power of hope.

God of War was ultimately meant to explain why there are no more Greek myths, but admittedly it stumbled through sequelitis along the way. I think if Kratos and the narrative in general were given the kind of treatment they?ve finally received in the newest game, there would be a significantly different perception of the series as a whole.

Spoiler

Kratos also does admit he?s a monster in the new game to the ghost of Athena herself, but also making it clear he?s not her monster.

 

[jademunky]

Imagine you were raised since the age of seven to be a ruthless warrior in the most brutal military regimen in the world. All you know is to fight and to never back down no matter the cost. Then one day you are literally at the end of your rope and make a plea to the God you basically have been brainwashed to serve, and in return he tricks you into killing your own wife and daughter in a bid to sever your last remaining ties to what little humanity you had left.

and this (among many pederast related reasons) is why I think the Spartans raise certain uncomfortable questions in a video game.

*snip* release the power of hope.

which in no way excuse your actions. Kratos casually murders innocent people for no reason but the fact that it is immediately beneficial, wages a war of genocide versus people which raises the ire of Zeus for obvious reasons which the game tries to pass as something that Kratos did not completely bring upon himself.

 

[Casual Shinji]

And that is why I will never play God of War 4. It would be like if Game of Thrones, during season 5 decided that the real hero of the whole story was Ramsay Bolton and tried to spend the rest of the story rehabilitating the character.

I think it depends on how much legitimacy (?) you give the storytelling of the previous games. I never saw Kratos as being on the same level as Ramsey Bolton, since Kratos was obviously meant as a wishfullfillment power fantasy and Bolton wasn't. Even in GoW3 were things get needlessly mean-spirited, it's still presented as Kratos being badass. It's more about the character writing being genuinely awful rather than Kratos himself. A horrible, irredeemable, vile character can still be engaging as a character, and Kratos never was. Not because of his actions, but because of how he was written.


In God of War 4 it's more the character writing that is redeemed, and in the process we get a Kratos who is fully aware of what a giant piece of shit he used to be (which the game heavily implies is probably 100+ years ago). He doesn't even seem to wanna do penance for his past actions or seek redemption, he just wants to seclude himself from everything, seeing as he failed to kill himself at the end of 3. You could argue as to why in god's name he would have another child, but even that has an actual good explantion. Like you could make a drinking game of everytime the game sits Kratos in a corner with a 'DUNCE' cap on.

So it's the rehabilitation of Kratos being a badly written character to being a well written character.

 

[Cicada 5]

And that is why I will never play God of War 4. It would be like if Game of Thrones, during season 5 decided that the real hero of the whole story was Ramsay Bolton and tried to spend the rest of the story rehabilitating the character.

I think it depends on how much legitimacy (?) you give the storytelling of the previous games. I never saw Kratos as being on the same level as Ramsey Bolton, since Kratos was obviously meant as a wishfullfillment power fantasy and Bolton wasn't. Even in GoW3 were things get needlessly mean-spirited, it's still presented as Kratos being badass. It's more about the character writing being genuinely awful rather than Kratos himself. A horrible, irredeemable, vile character can still be engaging as a character, and Kratos never was. Not because of his actions, but because of how he was written.


In God of War 4 it's more the character writing that is redeemed, and in the process we get a Kratos who is fully aware of what a giant piece of shit he used to be (which the game heavily implies is probably 100+ years ago). He doesn't even seem to wanna do penance for his past actions or seek redemption, he just wants to seclude himself from everything, seeing as he failed to kill himself at the end of 3. You could argue as to why in god's name he would have another child, but even that has an actual good explantion. Like you could make a drinking game of everytime the game sits Kratos in a corner with a 'DUNCE' cap on.

So it's the rehabilitation of Kratos being a badly written character to being a well written character.

I thought

Spoiler: this scene

did a good job of conveying that how tired he must be from a lifetime several lifetimes of killing stuff. Just watching his body language I thought ?damn, this one tired, broken old man.?

 

[Casual Shinji]

I thought

Spoiler: this scene

did a good job of conveying that how tired he must be from a lifetime several lifetimes of killing stuff. Just watching his body language I thought ?damn, this one tired, broken old man.?

Yeah, when it once used to fuel him, you can tell now it really just tires him out. It's like watching an old drug addict take a hit after years of being clean -- that old sensation almost being too overwhelming for his broken body.


There's a bunch of scenes where Kratos looks like just such a tired old fuck. You can almost feel the ache in his muscles.