On the Subject of Kojima and del Toro on Silent Hills

Edl01

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Edl01 said:
All this criticism of Kojima not being able to keep a consistent tone. But the thing is, Metal Gear isn't meant to be 100% gritty realism, it's always been a very silly over the top franchise. I mean I always see this website complaining about games trying too hard to be, "Realistic", so why is it such an issue when Metal Gear doesn't?
I'm sorry, but you do understand that criticism of the lack of a consistent tone in no way indicates people wanted Metal Gear to be a gritty, realistic series, right? They just want the tone to be...consistent. A story can be silly and still be consistent in tone.

Also, all the criticism? You mean, all one people in the thread?
Actually the idea Metal Gear is tonally inconsistent is a very, very common claim by people who dislike the franchise, and it is a complaint I personally do not like, since I do not view silly moments in a game in which the president is a clone with Doctor Octopus arms as tonally inconsistent.
 

StriderShinryu

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Edl01 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Edl01 said:
All this criticism of Kojima not being able to keep a consistent tone. But the thing is, Metal Gear isn't meant to be 100% gritty realism, it's always been a very silly over the top franchise. I mean I always see this website complaining about games trying too hard to be, "Realistic", so why is it such an issue when Metal Gear doesn't?
I'm sorry, but you do understand that criticism of the lack of a consistent tone in no way indicates people wanted Metal Gear to be a gritty, realistic series, right? They just want the tone to be...consistent. A story can be silly and still be consistent in tone.

Also, all the criticism? You mean, all one people in the thread?
Actually the idea Metal Gear is tonally inconsistent is a very, very common claim by people who dislike the franchise, and it is a complaint I personally do not like, since I do not view silly moments in a game in which the president is a clone with Doctor Octopus arms as tonally inconsistent.
The problem is that the series also tries to delve deep into (and take seriously) issues like child soldiers, war crimes, rape, etc. Being silly and cheeky is one thing, as is breaking the 4th wall, but it just ends up a mess when you put a serious moment about abducted child soldiers or forced genetic modification next to a girly poster and an NPC interaction designed for you to peek at their ass when they bend over.
 

RedDeadFred

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Honestly, I don't care for either of these people all that much. However, going off of the Playable Teaser for the game, I think they may be able to create something truly terrifying. The sense of dread that the demo constantly creates is more powerful than any other I've experienced in a game (yes I've played Amnesia).
 

matrix3509

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Its also retarded to expect a series like Silent Hill to be 100% super cereal all the time. This is a series where having an ending where a fucking UFO abducts you is a tradition. SH2 had an ending where a fucking DOG was responsible for everything.
 

Zetatrain

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StriderShinryu said:
Edl01 said:
Actually the idea Metal Gear is tonally inconsistent is a very, very common claim by people who dislike the franchise, and it is a complaint I personally do not like, since I do not view silly moments in a game in which the president is a clone with Doctor Octopus arms as tonally inconsistent.
The problem is that the series also tries to delve deep into (and take seriously) issues like child soldiers, war crimes, rape, etc. Being silly and cheeky is one thing, as is breaking the 4th wall, but it just ends up a mess when you put a serious moment about abducted child soldiers or forced genetic modification next to a girly poster and an NPC interaction designed for you to peek at their ass when they bend over.
Except, IMO, most of the silly moments aren't placed right next next to the serious moments. Usually there is enough of a buffer zone between these tonal shifts so it doesn't feel jarring. Out of the four main MGS titles the only game I felt that suffered from this was MGS IV and even then I didn't think it was that bad. It also helps that a lot of the silly things are optional. I don't believe the game has to be 100% serious if it wants to be taken seriously

Now granted i'm not saying you are wrong if you feel the silly moments clash with the serious ones, it is subjective after all.
 

Fox12

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MintSM said:
I've been scanning the general concensus of Silent Hills, and I've seen some complaints towards the directorial choice for the game (one which I am excited for, but that's not the point.)

One I do understand, the fact that Hideo Kojima is one of the directors. This, while I personally disagree with, is valid, as Kojima has shown himself as kind of not that great a writer for serious stuff and will probably just end up putting cutscenes over gameplay. That I get.

But then I've been seeing complaints towards the other director, Guillermo del Toro. I don't really understand the hate towards him; apparently it has something to do with him being unable to deliver the type of horror game we're looking for, but given Pacific Rim and more impressively, Pan's Labyrinth, I don't really get the hate.

I don't feel like asking this on Yahoo Answers is adequate, so I'll ask it here in a place where people seem to have a developed opinion. Thoughts on why this complaint is so prominent, and what are your thoughts on the choice of directors?

PS, Hi Escapist! I like it here.
Welcome!

Any way, I have an issue with one and not the other. Kojima is woefully under qualified for this series. Or, rather, he's woefully out of his element. I think he's good at telling wacky nonsensical stories, but Silent Hill a stark, hopeless place with subtle Jungian undertones and psychological horror. Kojima is a lot of things, but he is not subtle. His story telling style isn't suited for this type of game. Some directors can move effortlessly between genres. Kojima... is not one of these individuals. I've seen what dark Kojima looks like, and I think I prefer silly Kojima much more. He's... just not a good writer.

I'm on the fence about Del Torro. I've seen parts of Pans Labyrinth, which gives me hope. He may be able to reign in Kojima, but how involved is he? We still don't know. Is he writer? Director? Producer? Consultant? This is important, and we still don't know. As for why some people don't like him, I think there are several reasons. If the only Del Toro movie you've ever seen is Hell Boy and Pacific Rim, you can be forgiven for thinking that he's just another aging sci fi action movie junkie. Because Del Torro moves between art house films and popcorn munching pulp action films rather frequently, some people may be unaware of his horror movie roots, or that he's capable of subtlety when he feels like it.

To be fair, Silent Hill has never had good dialogue, so its not like they have much to live up to in that regard. Thankfully Silent Hill 2 didn't have much dialogue, and told most of its story visually, allowing the writers to turn a weakness into one of their greatest strengths, since the game is subtle and feels no need to spell things out for you.
 

NemotheElvenPanda

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If the PT is any indication, these guys know what they're doing. It has all the subtle horror that eats into your sense of security that Silent Hill is famous for. Hell the trailer in it is pretty much a challenge at all the past games that've tried to recreate the feel of the first three originals. I think we might get something that's trying to do something new with the franchise and succeed at it. I can't say anything about Kojima but with del Toro on board, I'm sure they'll get the right feel and visuals down pat. The only problem is the writing.
 

Hazy

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After watching Fungo's video yesterday, I can safely say that I am hyped. At the very least, it will be better than the shit Tomm Hulett crapped out.

 

Casual Shinji

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matrix3509 said:
Its also retarded to expect a series like Silent Hill to be 100% super cereal all the time. This is a series where having an ending where a fucking UFO abducts you is a tradition. SH2 had an ending where a fucking DOG was responsible for everything.
That's actually a very good point. People are going on and on about Kojima being too wacky for Silent Hill, but Team Silent had a pension for getting a bit wacky themselves. Now granted most of this was wackiness you had to actively look for, but the silly dialoge was definately unavoidable. "This city is filled with monsters -- How can you sit here and eat pizza?!"

Not that this is a slight against it -- it's why I love the first three games. But it's also why I love Kojima (most of the time).
 

Aerosteam

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To me at this point Silent Hill can't get any worse so the end result of this would be either this will be amazing and pump life back into survival horror or the franchise will continue to be a pile of human excrement and nothing has changed.
 

chocolate pickles

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The series hasn't got much to lose at this point. Everything since 3 has been a mixed bag:

4 = Not a silent hill game. Yes, i know it has some references to SH and says it on the cover, but it's not.
Origins = actually ok. Combat system was workable, but the atmosphere was non-existent, and the butcher was a pyramid rip off
Homecoming = Don't remember a single scare in this one. Also pretty much rehashed the plot of 2. Had the best combat system of any SH game, though
Shattered memories = again, atmosphere was non-existent once you figured out you were fine unless in a heavily signposted 'chase' segment. Interesting story twist, though.
Downpour = atmosphere was good in some places, and at least they tried to do something interesting with the story. Combat somehow regressed from homecoming and the sidequests were shit.

So yeah, let Kojima have it. It COULD be amazing or suck - though whatever he produces, it's going to be interesting with his... 'talents'
 

Diddy_Mao

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There is a cynical part of me that sees this as a plea for legitimacy from a series that has lost a lot of credibility.

Getting one of, if not the most recognizable names in modern game design and modern horror makes sense when trying to market your game as a legitimate improvement over the botched and buggy predecessors.

Still. I'd argue that Kojima knows how to make a good game and his unique approach to character development and storytelling could very easily mesh with Del Toro's skill at horror storytelling and monster design.


If you're only familiar with Del Toro through Pacific Rim and Hellboy I highly recommend checking out The Devil's Backbone and Cronos. The man can tell a good horror story.

Also this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/guillermo-del-toro-sketchbook_n_3823487.html
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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I used to be a HUUUUUGE SH fan. I was a member of the Silent Hill forum from way back (and undefeated Tetris wizard of the arcade) and we used to positively FILL thread after thread on speculation and theories with each new game and especially the first movie. People were showing off their Halo of the Sun tattoos and magic girl Heather cosplay.

Xuchilbara, Chibi James, and Valtiel were part of the daily jargon. Then one day, the forum was gone with no warning. Much like the quality of the games themselves.

I adored Silent Hill. It was one of the things that defined 1999 for me and getting those 10 stars and the hyperblaster took a lot of effort. But Silent Hill 2 raised the bar. I am not as fanatical about it as many fans are but I do recognize it as the best in the series. And getting 10 stars in that game was an ORDEAL thanks to that damn boat.

SH3 was also good but my opinion of it has if anything gone down sharply over the years. I could never beat the bosses quick enough to get 10 stars so no bad ass beam saber and flame thrower for me :(

SH4 I honestly don't remember too well, especially the plot or endings. I remember liking the game enough to get 10 stars or the equivalent and do the one weapon/all weapon modes. The ghosts were scary, unless you had your magic tooth picks.

Origins I really liked, though I don't think I got all the endings/bonus stuff. The only part I didn't like was the part where the Flauros becomes a Rubix puzzle. It really killed the momentum of the scene imo. Also I about crapped myself the first time I saw Calibans out in the streets after his boss fight.

Homecoming I remember liking up until the last level that it apparently ripped off from Hostel. I got all the endings etc. in that one. But, I I've gone back to try and play it again and I have completely forgotten how the combat works I guess as the nurses at the beginning just tear me up. The combat seems to be the key point of contention with people that either love it or hate it. I hated it, yet tolerated it previously I guess. Now the game is unplayable because I can't be assed to relearn it.

Shattered Memories was one of the worst games I have ever purchased. I hated every bit of it, and resent any and all praise it has received which is rightfully little. I consider it the most expensive game soundtrack I have ever purchased and kept it while I resold the game itself.

My favorite thing in all of the aforementioned games is quite possibly the music and I own every bit of it including things like Fukuro, Usagi, and all the unused tracks etc.

Which is why Downpour wasn't as good it could have been. I actually liked Downpour, which puts me into the tiny minority I guess. I like it perhaps only due to the endings I got, Reversal (because I sucked), and the one where the daughter has a word with the dirty cop. Then I went and got the joke one. I actually youtubed the others and they are FUCKING TERRIBLE! I mean they COULD have been the real version of events, but unless I was playing the game wrong I was controlling a MUCH different Murphy than the one they want me to believe he was in those endings. They feel like they were totally pulled out their ass as opposed to being consistent with the established plot and characterization.

I preferred in SH2 how the ending was actually based upon factors not readily apparent, and not two heavily telegraphed choices that actually have ZERO impact on the story until the ending. I did really like the sidequests in Downpour. The heart one in particular was intense on the way out of it.

So I'm optimistic about the new SH, because I simply have to be. I hope it will be good, and not something like Outlast or RE6 which I consider to be abhorrent.

I would actually much prefer another Siren game, and am glad that another Fatal Frame is coming too. Kuon is another good horror game.

I had been seeing something called P.T. at the top of Gamefaqs boards lately but never cared enough to see what it was. I figured it was some Planescape Torment remake or something because "P.T." isn't exactly clear what it is.

I had also heard there was a new Silent Hill game coming, but I guess I had somehow missed all the pants crapping that happened that connected the 2 things.

I don't have or know anyone that has a new console, so anything to do with such is totally ignored by me.

I guess there finally might be something of interest coming after all. I am in NO way a fan of Kojima, and I hated every MGS game I've ever played (borrowed) or watched being played (out of morbid curiosity). I guess I just can't get around how bad the games ARE versus how GOOD they should be given the plot that COULD have been instead of the clusterfuck of nonsense and naked Raiden kick flips we got.

I mean its like a Ghost in the Shell game, but instead of political intrigue and futuristic weaponry/tactics its just goofy and bizarre and not in an endearing way to me at least.

Not like, say, the original Silent Hill.

Del Toro is awesome, and I hope that he isn't just there for the name dropping. He is a busy guy, so idk where this all would be getting the time it needs to actually amount to much if he is already canceling other projects. If they were cancelled for THIS then I'm amazed lol.

I keep meaning to watch the second movie, but....I already know its terrible having seen one scene in particular that it just seems like a waste of time.
 

RavingSturm

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I suspect they'll try playing around with it for a bit. If it doesnt work out it'll die a quiet death or get outsourced to another developer while Kojima gets a exec producer credit, like what happened with MGS:R.
 

havoc33

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Why I'm excited about Silent Hills:

- the series will once again be developed IN-HOUSE by Konami
- Kojima and Del Toro brings a much needed credibility back to the series. It shows Konami is serious in getting the series back on track
- Kojima and Del Toro will ensure the series will be crazy enough
- Kojima is obviously a big fan of Silent Hill, and has several times stated that he'd like a chance to make a chapter in the series. In other words, this is not something Konami is forcing him to do, rather it's coming from his own motivation
- Kojima has stated after the PT reveal that the main focus is on making Silent Hill scary. A true survival horror. Here's hoping he does not neglect the psychological aspect, as this is the key ingredient in the series

And last but not least, I discovered this through Wikipedia:

- Kazuhide Nakazawa: Director of Silent Hill 3. He later joined Kojima Productions
- Suguru Murakoshi: Drama director of Silent Hill 2, director and scenario writer of Silent Hill 4. He later joined Kojima Productions
- In 2012, Masahiro Ito (Background and creature designer of Silent Hill, art director and creature designer of Silent Hill 2 and Silent Hill 3) stated on his Twitter that he would be willing to work on another Silent Hill game with Hideo Kojima

This obviously means that Silent Hills will have key members from the disbanded Team Silent working on it, which can only be a good thing. It's a reach, but here's hoping that Akira Yamaoka will be brought on to do the soundtrack as well. His work on the first 4 titles were spectacular.
 

Saika Renegade

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All I have to say is that if PT is any indication of what their eventual product will be like, it's going to be a plentiful source of nightmare fuel, and I encourage this on so many levels. It's horrific in a gruesome and sudden way with its jump scares, but also in a subtle yet crushing fashion with how all is clearly not right with the world even when it's trying to pretend to be some kind of normal, the kind of thing that would mirror the mental state of a person who is trying to fake their way through a semblance of normal life, if that's how the protagonist is set up.

Cor. Not even a full game and I'm already trying to analyze it. That's a good sign, right?
 

Madame_Lawliet

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I'm gonna play good cop on this one because I'm actually super excited for this pairing!

I admit, I am an unapologetic Metal Gear fangirl, so I am somewhat biased toward being on Kojima's side, but I really think that finally working on something OTHER then Metal Gear could give him the breathing room he needs to expand his range as a game director/designer, I mean the last high profile non-MGS thing he's worked on was Zone of the Enders 2... in 2003.
Plus, admit it, there were some genuinely scary moments in the MGS series, the first Psycho Mantis fight, the fight with the Sorrow, and some elements of the Crying Wolf fight are some stand out examples.

I don't understand anyone being worried about Del Torro taking the reigns, the man knows his way around directing great atmosphere, and considering how much of a fan Kojima was of Pacific Rim I'd say the two of them are very in-synch creatively.

I'm going to reserve my proper judgement until I actually play the thing, but I am very hopeful for this game personally!
 

ToastiestZombie

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Saika Renegade said:
All I have to say is that if PT is any indication of what their eventual product will be like, it's going to be a plentiful source of nightmare fuel, and I encourage this on so many levels. It's horrific in a gruesome and sudden way with its jump scares, but also in a subtle yet crushing fashion with how all is clearly not right with the world even when it's trying to pretend to be some kind of normal, the kind of thing that would mirror the mental state of a person who is trying to fake their way through a semblance of normal life, if that's how the protagonist is set up.

Cor. Not even a full game and I'm already trying to analyze it. That's a good sign, right?
That and Kojima's gone out and said that P.T. was deliberately made worse (and 30fps) to make it seem like just another indie horror game. Imagine what it'll be like when Kojima isn't trying to trick and surprise us.
 

Grach

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Well, I saw the Game Grumps playing PT and I have to admit: It really looks like these two have what it takes to make it work. It got tense without resorting to jumpscares or cheap thrills.

Casual Shinji said:
But as I said in the main news thread, Silent Hill is so dead at this point, I wouldn't care if Peter Molyneux and David Cage took a swing at it.
[sub]Christ, what am I saying?[/sub]
My eyes bled a little. Thanks.