This is probably going to be a spoiler thread. I won't say anything in the first post, but it's likely spoilers will occur in later ones. I left this thread til now due to this reason.
The Joker has been compare do to other angry at injustices of society man movie. Taxi Driver, Falling Down. Are they comparable? Or are they too different?
I just realized there's a movie called One Fine Day [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117247/] starring Batman and Catwoman.
Anyway, I like those three movies but Taxi Driver's the big winner.
Oh, it's definitely comparable, because they feature many of the same themes, messages, even story beats.
Taxi Driver is a much better movie, though, chiefly because it doesn't need to draw from a huge existing IP to make its point (and therefore works better as a self-contained piece), and because its much less on-the-nose and obvious.
The closest one to the premise in the thread's title; It's never just one bad day, as it turns out in those movies.
I, Olga Hepnarova
The rare example of one featuring different country than the US, and s female protag... Although it's based on real events, so i don't know if it counts.
This is probably going to be a spoiler thread. I won't say anything in the first post, but it's likely spoilers will occur in later ones. I left this thread til now due to this reason.
The Joker has been compare do to other angry at injustices of society man movie. Taxi Driver, Falling Down. Are they comparable? Or are they too different?
According to all of the reviews I've seen of it, positive and negative, they all acknowledge it draws heavily (too heavily in some cases) from Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy.
And while I've never seen it, and don't plan on it as I've never been a fan of "Homicidal Maniac Gets Justification For His Murders" films, it definitely reminded me of Falling Down, one that I do recall seeing, and finding dumb as hell. Along with Taxi Driver actually.
This is probably going to be a spoiler thread. I won't say anything in the first post, but it's likely spoilers will occur in later ones. I left this thread til now due to this reason.
The Joker has been compare do to other angry at injustices of society man movie. Taxi Driver, Falling Down. Are they comparable? Or are they too different?
According to all of the reviews I've seen of it, positive and negative, they all acknowledge it draws heavily (too heavily in some cases) from Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy.
And while I've never seen it, and don't plan on it as I've never been a fan of "Homicidal Maniac Gets Justification For His Murders" films, it definitely reminded me of Falling Down, one that I do recall seeing, and finding dumb as hell. Along with Taxi Driver actually.
Falling Down has a guy getting into a series of unfortunate and more ridiculous event trying to get to his 'family'. Taxi Driver was centred around trying to protect a woman. The Joker is like a vegan who got their first taste of meat by accident and then realises they like the taste.
I could understand the first two. But if you think the are homicidal maniacs, don't go see Joker. He completely skips the justification.
Carrie is definitely included. It is more of a group of people picking on the protagonist, rather than just society like the other movies. I don't know if that's a better justification.
Falling Down has a guy getting into a series of unfortunate and more ridiculous event trying to get to his 'family'. Taxi Driver was centred around trying to protect a woman.
I know, I've seen them, though I don't really recall much of Taxi Driver to be honest. The movies themselves though, still boil down to "lets show a series of events that together, pressure this person into thinking they are justified in indulging their homicidal thoughts, because Society Is Mean. And I've never found that a very compelling rationale/justification for any character, especially not someone who is framed as the protagonist that I'm supposed to sympathize and empathize with. Because I'm instantly not doing either of those things.
trunkage said:
The Joker is like a vegan who got their first taste of meat by accident and then realises they like the taste.
I could understand the first two. But if you think the are homicidal maniacs, don't go see Joker. He completely skips the justification.
See, I've seen enough spoiler reviews of Joker to know that's not really accurate, given his whole Society Monologue at the end. That's not just someone who found they liked killing. It's someone who flat out states that he's the way he is, Because of Society. I've even heard an audio clip from the climax, where he's all
They get what they deserve!
And it's all framed as him coming to some grand epiphany and this has allowed him to overcome his disorder, and all that other crap.
That's not just "hey! I really enjoy killing!" That's the same fundamental structure as the other 2 films mentioned.
But no I don't plan on seeing it, I never did have any plans on seeing it. I could tell from the trailers it was going to be exactly what it is, and as I stated, I've never found those movies compelling or enjoyable at all.
Slight tangent, I found Andre from Black Nerd Comedy's review of it pretty funny, where he said all the criticisms of society that the Joker rambles on about were really surface level things. He was like "Yeah! I know this stuff movie! You aren't telling me anything that's a secret or anything!" It was most amusing to watch him talk about it. xD
Falling Down has a guy getting into a series of unfortunate and more ridiculous event trying to get to his 'family'. Taxi Driver was centred around trying to protect a woman.
I know, I've seen them, though I don't really recall much of Taxi Driver to be honest. The movies themselves though, still boil down to "lets show a series of events that together, pressure this person into thinking they are justified in indulging their homicidal thoughts, because Society Is Mean. And I've never found that a very compelling rationale/justification for any character, especially not someone who is framed as the protagonist that I'm supposed to sympathize and empathize with. Because I'm instantly not doing either of those things.
trunkage said:
The Joker is like a vegan who got their first taste of meat by accident and then realises they like the taste.
I could understand the first two. But if you think the are homicidal maniacs, don't go see Joker. He completely skips the justification.
See, I've seen enough spoiler reviews of Joker to know that's not really accurate, given his whole Society Monologue at the end. That's not just someone who found they liked killing. It's someone who flat out states that he's the way he is, Because of Society. I've even heard an audio clip from the climax, where he's all
They get what they deserve!
And it's all framed as him coming to some grand epiphany and this has allowed him to overcome his disorder, and all that other crap.
That's not just "hey! I really enjoy killing!" That's the same fundamental structure as the other 2 films mentioned.
But no I don't plan on seeing it, I never did have any plans on seeing it. I could tell from the trailers it was going to be exactly what it is, and as I stated, I've never found those movies compelling or enjoyable at all.
Slight tangent, I found Andre from Black Nerd Comedy's review of it pretty funny, where he said all the criticisms of society that the Joker rambles on about were really surface level things. He was like "Yeah! I know this stuff movie! You aren't telling me anything that's a secret or anything!" It was most amusing to watch him talk about it. xD
I was trying to state that the first two had a motivation for the protag and Joker doesn't. Well, maybe to fit in but that's not as tangible as the others.
That society monologue... starts with him saying he's not political then stating many political things. He specifically states that he though killing the first guys was funny (enjoys killing), when, in reality what happened was that he got attacked and defended himself. He wasn't giving them what they deserve. He was surviving. But, maybe that matches your point. He's the way he is because he's surviving. But then, to me, blaming society for your behaviour is as bad as blaming the devil. Plus I enjoy my Joker is have agency. This one, at this time, is just listing between situations. Even this monologue is just him reacting.
Also, the whole story is highly likely to be just a figment of his imagination to make him look good in front of a psychiatrist. It certainly explains so many plot holes and inconsistencies. What might be interesting to hear is that this might be more truthfully to reality than was intended. The Joker is retroactively changing the story to fit his own narrative, which is very common in humans. Which is what I mean when talking about vegans.
But, I completely understand not understanding why anyone would be sympathetic to this type of protag. And they do a terrible job of making the Joker understandable or sympathetic after the first act.
I was trying to state that the first two had a motivation for the protag and Joker doesn't. Well, maybe to fit in but that's not as tangible as the others.
Oh I know what you were saying, I just don't agree at all with that being a valid motivation. Or perhaps a better way to put it is "I don't give a shit about that kind of motivation for a -protagonist-" I mean when you have to exaggerate the cascade of bad things that happen to a person to justify them running around murdering people, you've already lost me. I mean Falling Down was just ridiculous, especially when he went to that store run by the white supermacist. Who also happened to imply being a rapist and sodomist. I mean it felt like he'd suddenly walked into a shop and the clerk said Congratulations!! You're our 1,000,000 customer! You get a free Rape Day Coupon! Please proceed to the counter and bend over for your pounding! Then he starts just wandering around being a dick to everyone he meets who even slightly annoys him. Drawing a gun on some old golfers for nothing more annoying than just being assholes. I just don't give a fuck about people who think because they've had a few bad things happen to them, that it totally validates them indulging every hostile, violent thought in their head. Sorry, you're not a hero, or a protagonist, you're just a fucking pscyhopath who should be put down, and odds are you were going to snap anyway from any slight issue presented to you.
So I don't think any of the 3 examples have good motivation for their actions, because their actions so outstrip the actions done to them that it's just ridiculous. It's just vengence porn, which I have no interest in.
trunkage said:
But, I completely understand not understanding why anyone would be sympathetic to this type of protag. And they do a terrible job of making the Joker understandable or sympathetic after the first act.
It's not that I don't understand it, I just don't share that sympathy at all. When your plight ends with "And that's why I decided to start killing people." I just stop giving a shit about your problems, because you've stepped way beyond the realm of rationality.
Falling Down has a guy getting into a series of unfortunate and more ridiculous event trying to get to his 'family'. Taxi Driver was centred around trying to protect a woman.
I know, I've seen them, though I don't really recall much of Taxi Driver to be honest. The movies themselves though, still boil down to "lets show a series of events that together, pressure this person into thinking they are justified in indulging their homicidal thoughts, because Society Is Mean. And I've never found that a very compelling rationale/justification for any character, especially not someone who is framed as the protagonist that I'm supposed to sympathize and empathize with. Because I'm instantly not doing either of those things.
Every person is a product of it's evironment and every psychiatrist will also tell you that loneliness, rejection, abuse and social defeat leads to resentment. It's not hard to see how society shapes people to be the way they are and it's also not hard to see when these interactions are largely negative where the resentment for 'society' comes from. In no way does this justifies violence or murder but it does make for interesting character studies. The reality people deal with is ambiguous it's not black or white and both Taxi Driver and Joker contextualize this narrative. Though, I'd consider movies like Falling Down and Fight Club to be more of a cultural satire rather than a social critique. I think there is always a tendency to discredit a person's experience, even if fictional, b/c it doesn't conform to their moral beliefs but that is not the point these movies try to make.
Just look at the amount of discussion movies like Joker and Taxi Driver provoke. They strike a nerve in ways other movies don't.
Carrie is definitely included. It is more of a group of people picking on the protagonist, rather than just society like the other movies. I don't know if that's a better justification.
I disagree, I don't find them interesting at all, because these films don't actually study the character, they just pile a bunch of ludicrously contrived situations, to justify the later scenes where the person rants against society. The "he's just saying what we're all thinking!" shit. And then they decide to start killing people. It's not deep or compelling, it's just surface level revenge porn.
I disagree, I don't find them interesting at all, because these films don't actually study the character, they just pile a bunch of ludicrously contrived situations, to justify the later scenes where the person rants against society. The "he's just saying what we're all thinking!" shit. And then they decide to start killing people. It's not deep or compelling, it's just surface level revenge porn.
Whether you like a particular story or not it still wouldn't be 'revenge porn' if the message itself wasn't cathartic ie resonate with the audience. There is a reason why Joker incited such strong reactions. Another brilliant example is Breaking Bad. People kept wooing for Walt way beyond what Vince Gilligan expected. This would never happen if the audience couldn't recognize the social context of Walt's choices not being made in a vacuum.
In Taxi Driver, Travis' victimization is subtext. We know he's a Vietnam war veteran, and combined with his insomnia and disconnection from normal society we can infer he is suffering from an untreated trauma disorder caused by his wartime experiences. But we never actually see anything particularly bad happen to him. Most of his setbacks in life that we do see are trivial and clearly caused by his own actions. Were it not for the whole "forgotten man" trope in US films, we probably wouldn't pick up that Travis might have genuine reason to be angry at society.
Joker, by contrast, goes to great pains to tell us how absurdly oppressed and special its protagonist is and how society is responsible for his problems (despite the fact that it's not, his mother is responsible for his problems because this movie is Freudian as shit). It doesn't trust the audience with the slightest vestige of subtlety for fear they're going to misinterpret the #deep message about.. I don't know.. society bad I guess.
Also, doing a lot of exaggerated motion and expressions is not the same as good acting, and putting creepy music over someone dancing is not a nuanced portrayal of the descent into madness.
In Taxi Driver, Travis' victimization is subtext. We know he's a Vietnam war veteran, and combined with his insomnia and disconnection from normal society we can infer he is suffering from an untreated trauma disorder caused by his wartime experiences. But we never actually see anything particularly bad happen to him. Most of his setbacks in life that we do see are trivial and clearly caused by his own actions. Were it not for the whole "forgotten man" trope in US films, we probably wouldn't pick up that Travis might have genuine reason to be angry at society.
Joker, by contrast, goes to great pains to tell us how absurdly oppressed and special its protagonist is and how society is responsible for his problems (despite the fact that it's not, his mother is responsible for his problems because this movie is Freudian as shit). It doesn't trust the audience with the slightest vestige of subtlety for fear they're going to misinterpret the #deep message about.. I don't know.. society bad I guess.
Also, doing a lot of exaggerated motion and expressions is not the same as good acting, and putting creepy music over someone dancing is not a nuanced portrayal of the descent into madness.
Is it time to bring up Rambo into this line of questioning. I remember dad showing me Rambo 2 and 3 before 1 becuase... it has the PTSD stuff imbedded and is dropped in the sequels. But I haven't seen a Rambo since the 90s so I don't remember everything clearly.
Also, can anyone explain how the dwarf was being so 'nice' to Fleck? I don't remember him saying anything bad or good. So, why did he let him go? Also, he states that everyone is awful but, clearly, the dwarf isn't awful, defeating his own argument?
Is it time to bring up Rambo into this line of questioning. I remember dad showing me Rambo 2 and 3 before 1 becuase... it has the PTSD stuff imbedded and is dropped in the sequels. But I haven't seen a Rambo since the 90s so I don't remember everything clearly.
Rambo, certainly the first film, is another really good example of the same trope. It's a little more on the nose in Rambo.
The US has had this sense of cultural guilt about the treatment of military veterans for a long time. I suspect going back to the first and second world war. European countries seem to have come out of those wars with a sense of collective trauma, while in the US it's all about individual trauma and coming home to a society where noone understands you except fellow veterans.
Apparently, Travis' mohawk in Taxi Driver is also a Vietnam thing. It was apparently a common haircut for US special forces in the war.
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