One Last look at Mass Effect 3.

BreakfastMan

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Shadowkire said:
BreakfastMan said:
Shadowkire said:
Having a plot hole does make a story flawed, having a dozen makes it bad.
I disagree. I don't think you can put an arbitrary limit on plot holes that make a story objectively bad.
The limit isn't arbitrary, though it is subjective.

Most works of fiction have a plot hole or two, but such few flaws can be overlooked, unnoticed, and ignored. But as the number of plot holes increases the ability of anyone to understand the plot diminishes. As soon as this lack of understanding becomes a detriment to the purpose of the story(in this case entertainment/fun) the story is a bad one. This is of course subjective because different people have different tolerances, however the number of plot holes and inconsistencies in ME3's ending exceeds the ability of anyone to understand without being the people who wrote it.
I actually completely agree with your broad point here. I disagree with the assertion that the ME3 ending had so many plot-holes it was incomprehensible to anyone but the creators (if it was, we wouldn't have gotten as much discussion out of it as we did, would we?), but I agree with your point.
 

Uszi

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BreakfastMan said:
Uszi said:
Lets not be absolutists.
It smacks of hypocracy[sic] when you tell me not to do the same thing you just did...
I did not.

BreakfastMan said:
To the extent one work has more flaws than another work, the latter can be objectively said to be inferior to the first.
If one could objectively measure all the flaws of a work, I might agree with you. As it stands, one can only objectively measure some of the flaws of a work.
How is it necessary to measure all of the flaws?

BreakfastMan said:
I never said something had to have "no flaws" to be "good."
Yes, you did. You said that something that is flawed is objectively bad. That is the same as saying that something with no flaws is objectively good.
Hm. Well, first, if something really had no flaws, would it not be objectively good?

Second: I did not go on to say that is a black and white dichotomy. My point was merely that we can have non-arbitrary and therefore objective (based on evidence) means of determining whether or not something was "good" or "bad."

Third: If you're only objection to my argument is that I did not openly state that there was a scale of bad to good that include various states of "flawed but still good," then I am happy to say that this is merely an oversight on my part, and I am glad that we agree now. Yay, the ME3 endings are now objectively bad and we agree!

BreakfastMan said:
Just that we can establish non-arbitrary measures by which to measure goodness and badness, and this makes our opinion on such matters objective.
We can establish some non-arbitrary measures. We cannot objectively measure the goodness or badness of a story as a whole, because some of the measures are necessarily subjective.
Yes we can. To the extent that we have non-arbitrary measures to determine that one work is "more" flawed than another work, we can say that one work is better than another. ME3 has a lot of flaws. In fact, in commits every flaw you can possibly commit when writing the conclusion to a story. It may, one day, serve as an example of how not to end your game. And I do not need any subjective evaluation to identify these flaws. Simply give me a list, any list, of things you think made a flawed narrative, and I promise you will find them in abundance in ME3.

We do not need any subjective measures to do this. We can use an evidence based argument by examining what made "good" works "good" and "bad" works "bad," and then use these factors as the criteria by which we judge future works. Our personal feelings need not play any role in this evaluative process.

BreakfastMan said:
This only works if the only measure of the quality of a story is the presence and number of plot-holes. This is not the case in reality.
No, this works for whatever the measure of the quality of a story may be. There are certainly more things that one uses to when critiquing something. Plot holes were simply the specific thing you were talking about, so I used it as an example to relate it to your arguments.

If you're going to take my effort to tailor my examples to what you have previously discussed, and then use that to misrepresent or over simplify my stance, then I will certainly stop going out on a limb for you.
 

Falsename

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crazyrabbits said:
Falsename said:
Saying that "ME3 Sucks because of these reasons:...." is an opinion, in it's entirety. There's nothing factual about what you've said, it's ALL opinion.
Point out where I said the game sucks. Go on - show me. I didn't say that in my responses to you.

Hiding behind the "well, it's just your opinion" excuse is the mark of people who can't defend themselves when people call them out, or refuse to take part when someone presents a body of evidence. Everything I wrote is based off fact - yes, it's an informed opinion, but it's more valid than the standard "oh my god, this game is awesome!" drive-by posters who contribute nothing to the discussion and are quickly ignored.

Everything I mentioned - the EC adding plot holes, the backlash over the past few months, the demonstrated problems of the game via established literary concepts - that's all factual. You don't get to hide behind "it's my opinion" when it suits you. The criticism of the game from writers like Rhiannon Pratchett and outlets like Forbes/The New Yorker doesn't magically disappear when you want it to. The game's (still) broken quest system and lingering game bugs don't change just because you refuse to admit they exist.

I thoroughly enjoy ME3, and I'm not telling people why they should as well.
Sure you did. You came on and made a post begging people to read it, and I made an argument that, currently, you haven't disproven.

I think you have a lot to learn about online debating if you're that quick to hide behind a nonsensical argument.
Firstly this isn't meant to be a debate it's an exchange of opinions. I'm not as 'invested' in disproving you as you seem to be with me... rather unprovoked I might add.

Maybe all these horrid glitches and bugs haven't happened to me since I managed to play the entire game without anything stuffing up. Or they were small enough to be overlooked, or even noticed. You were obviously looking for them much harder than I was.

And you can't call me out on 'it's my opinion' discussion because there's nothing to be called out on. I am giving my opinion, I don't know what you think you're doing though. I'm not debating how good the game was, I'm not saying it was definitely great and everyone should love it, I'm expressing what I thought of the game.

I get the impression you're a 'hardcore' gamer. Self-titled of course. People can in fact play games without being overly critical of them as you seem to be. That doesn't mean they're not gamers they're just far less vocal about imperfections. I would make the suggestion that you calm down.

Mass Effect 3 was a great game. You don't have to think that, that's just what I believe and that's all I'm saying. My opinions aren't wrong they just differ. And this isn't a debate it's only an exchange. So again, please calm down Mr. Hardcore Gamer.

And for the record, there's no such thing as a 'fact' in a review. You're saying you're backing things up with facts but they're not, they opinions (you must be sick of that word by now, huh?). Take care, hope I don't hear any more "you're wrong!"'s from you.
 

Alex Mac

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It contained some of the most powerful scenes in a game, for me, this whole 'year'. Outside of the Walking Dead, of course. I think the game has issues but I think the backlash was the definition of idiotic. That's not really how consumerism or capitalism works, sadly. And people confused their ability to buy a product based on their projected beliefs with the product's contents. The player and the consumer, regardless of if they like the content, do not get to dictate or demand its alteration.

Flat and simple. No, no, no. This is to say nothing of the fact that I can adequately explain how all three (hell, even the forth option) fulfill certain narrative purposes and affirm or comment on certain themes of the series. People got up in arms about .5% of something. Which was insane. Will always be insane. And was one of the dumbest stories in the industry ever.
 

BreakfastMan

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Jul 22, 2010
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Uszi said:
BreakfastMan said:
To the extent one work has more flaws than another work, the latter can be objectively said to be inferior to the first.
If one could objectively measure all the flaws of a work, I might agree with you. As it stands, one can only objectively measure some of the flaws of a work.
How is it necessary to measure all of the flaws?
In order to say a work is objectively inferior to the other in totality.
Second: I did not go on to say that is a black and white dichotomy. My point was merely that we can have non-arbitrary and therefore objective (based on evidence) means of determining whether or not something was "good" or "bad."
We have 1 non-arbitrary measure that measures one aspect of a story, the integrity of the plot as a whole. This is fine for measuring that one aspect of that story, but does not provide a good measure of that story as a whole. Measuring the quality of other aspects of a story depend on subjective measures.
 

taciturnCandid

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Looking back at mass effect 3, it has been a heck of a fun multiplayer game. Despite overplaying 1 and 2 way too much, I haven't still touched the singleplayer of 3.

It is the longest I have played a multiplayer game and I still go back to it.

So kudos to the multiplayer team!
 

gaiusimperator

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Machine Man 1992 said:
gaiusimperator said:
Honestly, I find that most of the complaints come from gamers that do not remember the whole "Ultima 9" debacle. To say that Mass Effect 3 was a massive betrayal of a fanbase unlike anything ever seen is to forget Ultima 9.

I was but a kid when I started that game, but when I had finally quit, crying, after loving the rest of the the 8 Ultima games, I was truly a man.
I didn't even know Ultima even existed until Yahtzee made an off hand comment about it, and Spoony did an entire series of reviews on it.

So yeah, if you're wondering where EA got off on butt-fucking franchises, it's because they've been practicing.

Well, at least Mass Effect 3 was a game, and not a series of Betrayals.

At least its canon was consistent, and its story made sense (for the most part.)

And most of all, thank god there were no giant enemy crabs and Shepard never asked what a Paladin was...
 

Frission

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May 16, 2011
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I've seen two types of arguments here.
1. Art is subjective
2. Just turn your brain off

BreakfastMan said:

Look BreakfastMan, just stop. I've been lurking, but at this point I think it might be better to just end this argument about the objectivity of art. I guess you're a fan of Imscared by having white face as your avatar and that's cool. It's a nice game, but you certainly have to hold it to a different standard than say an RPG or an action game.

It's good in a different kind of way than other horror games. I can see what you mean when you say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that the effect a form of art can have on a viewer depends. Or whether an audience "gets" the purpose of the piece of work.
Art is subjective.

However skills in crafts like writing or playing an instrument or drawing are measurable. That doesn't mean that a mediocre artist can't make some good works if they have something to say and a skilled artist can get away with being lazy. It just means that in some level there is such a thing as bad art or writing.

I know that in my brief stint in writing class, I was constantly annoyed by the wannabe writers who refused to listen to their teacher, because they were convinced that since it was art they could be forgiven for being thematically inconsistent and basing most of their writings on adverbs.

You can rife through the rest of the thread for videos about problems with Mass Effect in view of writing.

I believe that in effect Mass Effect 3 is "bad".

Personally, I still like some books and films that could be considered "bad" and at least Mass Effect 3 had two redeeming moments for me. Mordin's death and Rannoch.


Falsename said:
Okay, I have way less sympathy for this type of argument. Saying stop thinking or stop being critical is very stupid.

Some people can shut their brains off and relax and can thuss enjoy alot more things. That's good. That doesn't mean however that it will make the work any better. Saying that people have to lower their bar is a bad tactic. People saying "Stop being critical of art" is the death of art.



DioWallachia said:
And for this reason i ask to the artists of the world: What is the point of trying anymore? People no longer take seriously your efforts, your "Stanley Kubrikian" attention to detail, the visual storytelling, nothing. Your efforts are now completely meaningless since people are too dumb to notice the sheer difference between works. No point competing with other artist if your godlike efforts to move the medium forward with a movie the "The Fall", is going to be meet with the same standing ovation like the lazily designed "Transformer 2"
I don't agree with everything he says, but he does say what I think is wrong with saying that you shouldn't think.

That and I have a feeling you're being deliberately provocative while saying "calm down", which I find very very obnoxious.
 

Smeggs

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crazyrabbits said:
That's some interesting information, thanks for sharing. It kind of gives me hope to hear that at least 35% of the fan following actually stuck to their guns and didn't buy the DLC.

Not specifically because it was ME3, but because it shows that gamers really aren't just mindless sheep who will be fed what is placed in front of them. It will most likely set a precedent for other gaming companies and developers in the future. Maybe some day we will even see EA take a few notes, considering everything was pretty gravy until they came floating in from dark space.

Captcha: Creative Process

I found that amusingly appropriate for the topic.
 

Aeonxan

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Mass Effect 3 is my favorite game of all time. To me it is perfect. I loved the ending. For the people that didn't like the ending, you just didn't understand it. You had an ending that you wanted, and you're just mad that you didn't get it.
 

crazyrabbits

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Falsename said:
Firstly this isn't meant to be a debate it's an exchange of opinions. I'm not as 'invested' in disproving you as you seem to be with me... rather unprovoked I might add.
As I said, if debates/exchanges of arguments aren't your thing, especially in regards to this franchise, I'm sure there are plenty of other forums that would pique your interest. 95% of the discussion about this game is people trying to counter one another.

I laid out an argument grounded in facts. Despite your assertions, most of what mentioned (the backlash, the instances of demonstrable elements that failed within the game, both from a player and literary perspective) don't suddenly become smoke in the wind because someone decides to try and cast it off by assuming it's just "opinion". That's the territory of overzealous fanboys who can't debate, and I don't think you're guilty of that.

Maybe all these horrid glitches and bugs haven't happened to me since I managed to play the entire game without anything stuffing up. Or they were small enough to be overlooked, or even noticed. You were obviously looking for them much harder than I was.
Actually, I wasn't. As I said before, I didn't drop $60/$80 on the game. I bought the first two games after seeing playthroughs of them online, and did the same with this game. The number of bugs and glitches I saw, not only in that playthrough but a number of Youtube videos that showed them off, convinced me that it not only was an underwhelming product from a story standpoint, but a glitch-filled mess on top.

Off the top of my head, there are demonstrated cases of dialogue not playing (including the resolution of Ashley's romance arc if you talked to the engineers before her late in the game), several lines that Liara was supposed to say if you romanced her in LotSB never playing due to an override glitch, at least one instance in the Mars mission where you could be stuck for minutes on end behind a gate unless you picked off an enemy in the far, far end of the room (stuck behind a box) with pitifully-weak attacks. Low-res textures and bizarre character movement on the Citadel. No difference between walking and running (not a bug). Dialogue for FemShep in Priority: Earth not triggering. There are lists of these problems online - just because you didn't encounter them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Some of them were fixed, sure, but there are still a surprising number that haven't been - most notably the face import bug, even after two patches.

And you can't call me out on 'it's my opinion' discussion because there's nothing to be called out on. I am giving my opinion, I don't know what you think you're doing though. I'm not debating how good the game was, I'm not saying it was definitely great and everyone should love it, I'm expressing what I thought of the game.
And that's fine - I don't care whether people loved it or hated it. Good on them. You made a post, I responded to it, then you tried to cast this blanket statement that my remarks were nothing but opinion, when I grounded it in demonstrable fact. If you don't like what I'm saying, go ahead and disprove it instead of posting the same drive-by tactics that overardent fans like to use. I've been debating on message boards for the better part of a decade, and I've seen all types.

I get the impression you're a 'hardcore' gamer.
Far from it. Actually, I only bought a 360 a year-and-a-half back. If you knew the kind of work I do normally, and how little time I have to get to games (or debate online), you wouldn't say that.

People can in fact play games without being overly critical of them as you seem to be. That doesn't mean they're not gamers they're just far less vocal about imperfections. I would make the suggestion that you calm down.
Who says I'm angry? Now you're just trying to deflect the discussion.

There is nothing wrong with criticism or complaining - all works have flaws. If we as a culture sat back and blindly accepted everything that's shoveled our way, we'd never learn anything. My point is that fans can, and should, expect better from a developer who once crafted games that are still considered to be at the pinnacle of the genre.

Anyone who tries to argue otherwise, especially in this instance (where the "pro-enders" repeatedly tell people to stop complaining, which was annoying in the face of well-reasoned and well-researched arguments, and even moreso now), should be ignored and dismissed. You're not helping your case at all.

And for the record, there's no such thing as a 'fact' in a review.
You have a lot to learn about debating. The accounts and testimonials, the disingenuous (and outright untrue) pre-release statements by the developer themselves, the demonstration of how plot elements fail basic literary tenets... those are not just opinions.
 

crazyrabbits

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Smeggs said:
crazyrabbits said:
That's some interesting information, thanks for sharing. It kind of gives me hope to hear that at least 35% of the fan following actually stuck to their guns and didn't buy the DLC.

Not specifically because it was ME3, but because it shows that gamers really aren't just mindless sheep who will be fed what is placed in front of them. It will most likely set a precedent for other gaming companies and developers in the future. Maybe some day we will even see EA take a few notes, considering everything was pretty gravy until they came floating in from dark space.
Yeah, from what I can gather (reading posts and an explanation of these stats), it's not just that consumer confidence is down. The DLC's have reportedly been terrible sellers - Omega and Leviathan (according to people who've been watching the 360/PSN markerplaces) have not sold anywhere near the amount of other DLC's in the Top 10 ever since their respective releases. Not only that, but the trilogy compilation release sold something like a whopping 20,000 copies in launch week (which is barely anything, even for a rerelease), and the WiiU version is extremely sluggish as well.

In addition, it seems there are thousands of page visits to the BSN where people are only visiting for 1 second (really, 1 second) and somehow visiting 6 or 7 pages at the same time. This seems to indicate that someone is "juking the stats" to make the dismal page traffic look much better than it really is. The post I mentioned (which is on the HTL forum, by the way) also mentioned that the biggest search terms related to the game are "ME3 ending mod" and "ME3 ME3HM" (the happy ending mod).

I get the feeling that nothing is going to change until Bioware sucks up their pride and releases a DLC that changes the ending.
 

BreakfastMan

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Frission said:
It's good in a different kind of way than other horror games. I can see what you mean when you say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that the effect a form of art can have on a viewer depends. Or whether an audience "gets" the purpose of the piece of work.
Art is subjective.

However skills in crafts like writing or playing an instrument or drawing are measurable. That doesn't mean that a mediocre artist can't make some good works if they have something to say and a skilled artist can get away with being lazy. It just means that in some level there is such a thing as bad art or writing.
I admit that skills in crafts generally tend to be measurable (in some sense), but I find it hard to accept that the quality of a given work is able to be objectively measured. There are some parts of it that can, but there are some that cannot. That is really the entire point of my many posts in this thread. :\

EDIT: Also, I am not arguing for whether ME3 is good or not, I just kind of got drawn into this thread by accident.
 

Smeggs

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crazyrabbits said:
Smeggs said:
crazyrabbits said:
That's some interesting information, thanks for sharing. It kind of gives me hope to hear that at least 35% of the fan following actually stuck to their guns and didn't buy the DLC.

Not specifically because it was ME3, but because it shows that gamers really aren't just mindless sheep who will be fed what is placed in front of them. It will most likely set a precedent for other gaming companies and developers in the future. Maybe some day we will even see EA take a few notes, considering everything was pretty gravy until they came floating in from dark space.
Yeah, from what I can gather (reading posts and an explanation of these stats), it's not just that consumer confidence is down. The DLC's have reportedly been terrible sellers - Omega and Leviathan (according to people who've been watching the 360/PSN markerplaces) have not sold anywhere near the amount of other DLC's in the Top 10 ever since their respective releases. Not only that, but the trilogy compilation release sold something like a whopping 20,000 copies in launch week (which is barely anything, even for a rerelease), and the WiiU version is extremely sluggish as well.

In addition, it seems there are thousands of page visits to the BSN where people are only visiting for 1 second (really, 1 second) and somehow visiting 6 or 7 pages at the same time. This seems to indicate that someone is "juking the stats" to make the dismal page traffic look much better than it really is. The post I mentioned (which is on the HTL forum, by the way) also mentioned that the biggest search terms related to the game are "ME3 ending mod" and "ME3 ME3HM" (the happy ending mod).

I get the feeling that nothing is going to change until Bioware sucks up their pride and releases a DLC that changes the ending.
Well, no surprise about the DLC. After I beat the game I really just lost any interest in replaying it. I replayed ME2 a good three times way back; once when I downloaded Kasumi and Overlord, another after I got Shadow Broker (possibly the most amazing DLC for a game I've ever gotten, hands down) and again after Arrival came out, just to experience the full game with all it had to offer.

But knowing that none of the DLC's for ME3 will show me anything I don't already really know is going to happen, I don't see a point. Reapers are universal garbage men, don't need Leviathan to tell me that. Aria is a bloodthirsty tyrant and Cerberus is full of assholes who will ultimately fail when TIM dies, don't need Omega DLC to tell me that. I just have no drive to play them.

Ha, it's funny. I think that maybe they should have left the ending open for DLC additions. There's no incentive for them now. Not like ME1 and 2, which promised that you would see the results of your decisions in the DLC in the next game.
 

Frission

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May 16, 2011
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BreakfastMan said:
EDIT: Also, I am not arguing for whether ME3 is good or not, I just kind of got drawn into this thread by accident.
At this point as I've already posted, I'm not sure if most people are talking about Mass Effect anymore. It's sor of funny.

EDIT: Calling a work bad can be annoying. Me? I think it's fair game that some parts notably the ending can go die in a fire.

FFHAuthor said:
I think it's amazing that this one issue has managed to encompass just about every tenet and aspect of Gaming culture that a reasonable player is aware of and has issues with. It's more than just the Mass Effect 3 ending, it's gotten to the point that it is the embodiment of everything that we feel is 'wrong' with the industry.

-EA's corporate policies
-Creative input and control
-Games as Art
-DLC content
-Relationships between the Journalistic Community and the Games industry

We can quibble on and on about what the endings were and weather we liked them or not, but if you peel it all back, the ME3 debacle brings us back to those issues more than anything else, and it shows us all just how rotten things are getting in the industry.

-EA's Corporate policies
We see over hype and over sell of a title, creating a burden that can't be lived up to, but we see a bastardization of what the core mechanics of a game are about. We see forced deadlines, we see creative control hampered, we see decisions forced rather than approached reasonably, we see the desire to broaden the 'market' and 'target demographic' as much as possible to sell as much as possible, and we see a game boiled down to a mere money making endeavor...all these things growing from a company that doesn't care about gaming as entertainment. A company whose 'growth' continues despite the failings of it's business model. I don't think EA is going to stop buying successful companies anytime soon, but we've seen with Bioware what's happened to Maxis, Pandemic, and countless others...whose body is next on that pile?

-Creative input and control
How many people think that the team at Bioware had the final say in everything about Mass Effect 3? I don't. I don't think any reasonable person can say that they did. I think the ME3 issue shows us just how out of control and still how disjointed even excellent teams can be. We look at ME3 and see golden examples of excellent storytelling and gameplay, set alongside repetitive and nonsensical mechanics and aspects. Perhaps it's an innane thought, but video games still aren't made in the best way thy should be.

-Games as Art.
How many people think 'Artistic Integrity' is profanity? I know I do. I know that's wrong, but it's still true. I think ME3 did more to damage the place of art and the value of games as art in the eyes of GAMERS than anything else has. This is on the heels a the US Supreme Court ruled that Games are art, that major art exhibits are beginning based around video games, and yet among our own ranks, the ME3 issue has made many of us dismiss the concept of games as art. Now many of us see it as a crutch for bad writing or a shield for nonsensical and wasted effort, or we see it as a shallow and pointless phrase tossed out that will automatically brand anything associated it with sinister overtones, not giving it a reasonable showing.

-DLC content
Perhaps it's not as big an issue, but I vaguely remember a Final Fantasy game with DLC content that took place after the ambiguous ingame ending. Content that had you fighting the end boss and receiving a different (or at least more complete) resolution to the situation. They charged for this. It sounds like charging players for the ending to a game to me. But I hear nary a word over that...but then Mass Effect 3 does Day 1 DLC for integral characters who provide large swathes of information throughout the story, expanding scenes and interactions in many ways. They add DLC to provide closure, a download that was rushed because of fan outcry, a download that had been planned before release, and perhaps a download that they had planned on charging for. Perhaps most galling was the fact that the last bit of relevant text to be read in the entire game is a pitch to purchase DLC. Bioware, master of storytelling, EA grim reaper of the Videogames industry, sits there and tells us that Javik was not necessary and that the extended cut was not necessary.

I don't know. I had Javik, but I never brought myself to play to the end of the extended cut.

-Relationship between Journalists and the industry
Now, I spend most of my time studying politics, reading the news, CNN, MSNBC, FOX and the like. So seeing collusion, conflicts of interest and general favoritism in journalism isn't something that shocks me. Of course, I'm used to Fox favoring Republicans, CNN and MSNBC favoring Democrats, so on and so forth. I'm used to seeing blatant lies covered up and party lines parroted in a way to twist the minds of what the readers think. I don't think I've ever seen the mainstream media side with the politicians against their readers though.

Seeing games reviewers and online publications turn against their readership is amazing. I'd expect to see that from online cartoonists, who let's face it, make money by making outrage. But IGN and others...they're supposed to be that important 'fourth estate' the watchdogs, the impartial arbiters and reporters of the information...now of course, they're all in it for money...and we see just who those journalists hurled themselves forward to defend, the people that get them their money apparently, the major producers. I'm not saying that they should have been joining the angry mobs, far from it in fact. They've killed their credibility worse than any Dorritos add or bag of swag and day at E3 could manage, they showed absolutely no regard or desire to as a whole report on what was the biggest story in gaming...and when they did, they did it in such a blatantly biased way that it was beyond reprehensible.

FORBES did, and let's face it, how many gamers look to Forbes for their release and review news?


Perhaps I'm taking this issue a bit deeper than intended, but this issue isn't about Mass Effect 3 anymore, it's about the core of our passion, our hobbies, and our interest in gaming, and it touches each and every one of us. How games are made, how the corporations involved in gaming operate, the quality we expect from games and the quality we expect from games Journalists. It's all been laid bare to us in this messy debacle and the point of this isn't that we as gamers should be 'holding the line' for a better ME 3 ending or arguing the Indoctrination theory. The point of it is we need to demand batter of our games producers, and reviewers, or the media that reports to us, and of the companies that get our money, because we've let it all slide. We haven't' cared, we haven't made the painful stand to demand better products, and the end result is the Mass Effect 3 debacle.
It's a long post, but it shows what this issue has bloated into. We could add failure in PR, because it's amazing how bio ware managed to let this snowball into this. I still think some of the stuff he says is relevant.

Ok, enough of this thread for me. I've wasted too much time. Merry ch- holidays!
 

userwhoquitthesite

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beef_razor said:
I like ME3, but it's probably my least favorite. Sure, its the most technically proficient and it has the best engine and graphics, and I really like how the character stories and interactions are more personal and fluid, but still... least favorite in my book. Biggest complaints were the half ass endings and the fact that the characters from ME2 were pretty much given the raw deal.
clearly, they were all supposed to die in the Suicide Mission
 

MrDelicious

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Uszi said:
MrDelicious said:
Does anyone else feel a little annoyed that they keep releasing story dlc for what was meant to be the finale? I mean this was meant to be the end, and they just keep adding and adding more story that really should have been there in the first place. I'm still annoyed at multiplayer too, I should not have to play multiplayer to fix up my single player.
On the Bioware Social Network, those who drink the Bioware Kool Aid believe that all of the story DLC is a primer for a "Real Ending" DLC, which they had to release as DLC because EA was breathing down their necks to get the game done months ago.

There's a thread about it somewhere.... here:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13110654/1

Enjoy!
On one hand that sounds really cool, on the other damn ea for pressuring Bioware instead of letting them take their time, didn't the founders of Bioware leave earlier this year on what was roughly five years since Bioware merged with ea?
 

Maze1125

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Uszi said:
I can say this objectively by pointing to the criteria by which we judge such things.
Yes, if you redefine the word "objective" to mean "judged by commonly agreed criteria" then you can claim that ME3 is "objectively bad" and, at the very least, have a coherent sentence.