Online learning struggles

[Griffith]

This isn't fun, is it? Maybe it is for some, I can't speak for all- but I know I speak for most students when I say this utterly bogus. I've never been a great student, I almost totally relied on spending full days in school in classes then going to the library to continue working- I am not built for working at home, it's just not how my brain is wired. I wake up and look around my room in dread. There's not a room in my house I could work in without being distracted. I'm terrified for the end of the year, this is the most important year of all my school years. And it's wasted. I'm not here to vent, rather the purpose of this thread is to provide a space for us struggling students to help each other.

 

[dreng3]

As someone with who has degree in education and also finished education online only, I wholeheartedly agree. Online learning sucks. It is nowhere near as engaging as in-person, it limits or removes the social aspect of learning, and it severely limits the relational aspect between teacher and student which is otherwise essential to learning.

But, as a prospective teacher who can't find a job due to covid I'm still going to say that I'd prefer students and teachers staying at home instead of suffering any of the horrible side effects of covid, or perpetuating the virus itself.
I'll also say that this should be taken as an example of why online only isn't the future and why physical schools and actual teachers, as opposed to virtual and recorded, is necessary.

I had finals via video conference, it sucked, you miss so many cues and it is impossible to engage on a meaningful level with someone you're only seeing through a screen.

 

[gorfias]

I've been loving online learning since way before COVID. No time wasted in commuting. I get to do my studies in my home office with multiple screens: one has streaming instructional videos while I type notes on the other.

Were it not for this sort of thing, I think my boy would have, at a minimum, been held back his senior year of high school. As it is, he took a few online courses to help him catch up.

1 problem he has run into: he is in the trades. He is working on an associates and a class that requires hands on labs is counted as incomplete as there are not labs at this time.

So, it isn't perfect. Some day he will have to get back to campus in order to finish his education.

 

[Agema]

Speaking from the other side of the podium as a lecturer, I do not favour online learning.

I do not like the disconnection from the students. I think it's harder to get involved in interactive activity: I've noticed (as we have to record teaching sessions) students do not want their faces and voices recorded, so it goes via slow and cumbersome chat functions instead. I can't gauge whether the students are disengaged - which is also bad for me to realise if I need to change things. (For all I know, some log on then mute me and go watch television instead.) I think it's much harder to generally "be there" in a social sense: particularly for later year students looking to move on, they can often want to talk more generally adult to adult.

Many lecturers (myself included) are also relatively inexperienced in online delivery: teaching that worked well face to face doesn't necessarily online, which means clumsiness, a lot of work retooling teaching materials and the inevitable requirement for experimentation that might not turn out well. Some of my colleagues, I think, have adapted better than I have, but I have a high administrative burden which leaves me less time to concentrate on teaching. And I too miss the social aspect not seeing my colleagues, so it's probably worse for new students thrown into an environment full of new people they don't know. It's been a huge amount of work reorganising and developing stuff over Summer due to covid, and as a result I'm quite tired and jaded going into the start of year because I had to sacrifice a fair chunk of my annual leave to oversee reorganisation.

I think there are positives. I think students that are motivated and organised are going to do much better, and potentially this is going to drive students to be better motivated and organised: potentially a lot of students don't develop good enough skills in this regard throughout their degree. On the flipside, those who don't up their game are at higher risk of failing (and from my perspective, that means a higher burden of care and workload assisting them). I'm certainly saving a lot of money and time not commuting. Simply still having a job and getting paid put me a long way ahead of millions is something I can be thankful for.

 

[Griffith]

As someone with who has degree in education and also finished education online only, I wholeheartedly agree. Online learning sucks. It is nowhere near as engaging as in-person, it limits or removes the social aspect of learning, and it severely limits the relational aspect between teacher and student which is otherwise essential to learning.

But, as a prospective teacher who can't find a job due to covid I'm still going to say that I'd prefer students and teachers staying at home instead of suffering any of the horrible side effects of covid, or perpetuating the virus itself.
I'll also say that this should be taken as an example of why online only isn't the future and why physical schools and actual teachers, as opposed to virtual and recorded, is necessary.

I had finals via video conference, it sucked, you miss so many cues and it is impossible to engage on a meaningful level with someone you're only seeing through a screen.

Oh goodness yes, everyone is much more stuck in their bubble online, like they'd rather be somewhere else. No one is engaged, no banter, no helping each other out. But of course it is necessary, like you said about the virus- schools are breeding grounds, so this is just how things will be for the moment. Thank you for your reply!

 

[Griffith]

I've been loving online learning since way before COVID. No time wasted in commuting. I get to do my studies in my home office with multiple screens: one has streaming instructional videos while I type notes on the other.

Were it not for this sort of thing, I think my boy would have, at a minimum, been held back his senior year of high school. As it is, he took a few online courses to help him catch up.

1 problem he has run into: he is in the trades. He is working on an associates and a class that requires hands on labs is counted as incomplete as there are not labs at this time.

So, it isn't perfect. Some day he will have to get back to campus in order to finish his education.

It's actually sweet to read a positive story about this whole situation! Though it isn't perfect, it's working for y'all! Thank you for your reply!

 

[Griffith]

Speaking from the other side of the podium as a lecturer, I do not favour online learning.

I do not like the disconnection from the students. I think it's harder to get involved in interactive activity: I've noticed (as we have to record teaching sessions) students do not want their faces and voices recorded, so it goes via slow and cumbersome chat functions instead. I can't gauge whether the students are disengaged - which is also bad for me to realise if I need to change things. (For all I know, some log on then mute me and go watch television instead.) I think it's much harder to generally "be there" in a social sense: particularly for later year students looking to move on, they can often want to talk more generally adult to adult.

Many lecturers (myself included) are also relatively inexperienced in online delivery: teaching that worked well face to face doesn't necessarily online, which means clumsiness, a lot of work retooling teaching materials and the inevitable requirement for experimentation that might not turn out well. Some of my colleagues, I think, have adapted better than I have, but I have a high administrative burden which leaves me less time to concentrate on teaching. And I too miss the social aspect not seeing my colleagues, so it's probably worse for new students thrown into an environment full of new people they don't know. It's been a huge amount of work reorganising and developing stuff over Summer due to covid, and as a result I'm quite tired and jaded going into the start of year because I had to sacrifice a fair chunk of my annual leave to oversee reorganisation.

I think there are positives. I think students that are motivated and organised are going to do much better, and potentially this is going to drive students to be better motivated and organised: potentially a lot of students don't develop good enough skills in this regard throughout their degree. On the flipside, those who don't up their game are at higher risk of failing (and from my perspective, that means a higher burden of care and workload assisting them). I'm certainly saving a lot of money and time not commuting. Simply still having a job and getting paid put me a long way ahead of millions is something I can be thankful for.

It's interesting to read about this situation from your point of view! But unfortunate that it is just as inconvenient for you as it is for the students. That disconnect really is one the worst things about this, there's no real engagement staring at a screen- as most students I know do turn their mics and cameras off to goof around doing something else! I can imagine that's terribly frustrating and I have a lot of sympathy towards you and other lecturers facing the same thing!
Having to suit everything for streaming really flipped the script on how to present lessons.
Thank you for your reply!

 

[Breakdown]

I like distance learning, I think it's the sense of independence that appeals to me. Read the learning materials, find out when the assignment is due, sort it all out yourself, no need to rely other people.

I much prefer hard copies of course texts rather then e-learning pages though.

 

[Agema]

It's interesting to read about this situation from your point of view! But unfortunate that it is just as inconvenient for you as it is for the students. That disconnect really is one the worst things about this, there's no real engagement staring at a screen- as most students I know do turn their mics and cameras off to goof around doing something else! I can imagine that's terribly frustrating and I have a lot of sympathy towards you and other lecturers facing the same thing!
Having to suit everything for streaming really flipped the script on how to present lessons.
Thank you for your reply!

An important consideration of education is that learning is an activity constructed by the learner. The teacher in this case is really a "facilitator" - they identify what needs to be learnt and can help guide, but learning is what students do and they must find their own way to do it best. Because we have to teach "in bulk" there's an element of one-size fits all in teaching (although a good teacher will mix up techniques to try to give value to students with different preferences) and inevitably some students won't warm to one or more teaching syles or activities. Such is life.

Because of this, I don't really mind if a student switches off and goes elsewhere as long as it works for them - they do it in their own time, and learn it fine. What worries me are the students who don't work this way, can't resist the lure of Facebook or whatever, and don't make up the difference back. This is very much what I mean by needing motivation and organisation. We know from research that overall, on average, students who attend are more likely to learn the material better - although this is conventional face to face lecture attendance. It may not hold true with online lectures because it's easier for concentration to drift online so attendance may be less beneficial.

I worry a little that students often use face to face, such as the end of the lecture, as an opportunity to come up and ask questions and resolve issues. Online, maybe they just won't bother at all, and it'll be a loss for them.

 

[dreng3]

An important consideration of education is that learning is an activity constructed by the learner. The teacher in this case is really a "facilitator" - they identify what needs to be learnt and can help guide, but learning is what students do and they must find their own way to do it best. Because we have to teach "in bulk" there's an element of one-size fits all in teaching (although a good teacher will mix up techniques to try to give value to students with different preferences) and inevitably some students won't warm to one or more teaching syles or activities. Such is life.

As a fellow educator I have to disagree, at least if you're making a generalized statement. Where I'm from we're educated according to the principle of inclusion, which includes catering to different levels of skill amongst the students. Merely conveying knowledge isn't sufficient we always need to consider whether or not we're conveying in the way that is most useful to the audience. Unfortunately remote learning isn't the most useful form for most students since learning is, largely, a social activity and sparring is a central element to learning, which is restricted when teaching remotely.
Of course we place a greater burden on those enrolled in colleges, but even then, the method should be adapted to the students, not the other way around.

 

[Tireseas]

So, I've done remote learning as part of a test-prep curriculum and have worked out of my home office for several years now. I'm generally inclined to not favor remote learning absent atypical circumstances as there's a lot of demands that come from learning and working from home that are not needed from an office.

For one, it requires a serious commitment to personal structure that is easier in institutionalized settings such as an office and school. One's environment helps prime their expectations and actions to more [effectively get into the groove of working/learning.]

Second, those environments are essential social groups that assist with personal growth as well as meeting essential needs of a healthy person (very few people benefit from a lack of social interaction). Intermediary systems (phone, text, video, etc.) simply do not provide the same level of benefit largely because our brains do not register such interactions in the same way they would with in person interaction.

Third, long term, the isolation from remote work/learning grates on you and tends to exacerbate mental illness such as anxiety, depression, and other ailments due to the lack of regular in-person contact with people.

CGP Grey's video on managing your time and space parallels much of what I've done over the last several years (I'm less enthusiastic on "being better than before" as I tend to be a "survival is an acceptable outcome" approach to isolation): divide the space, stick to a schedule, get at least minimum exercise, and avoid mixing those spaces together (which can be a bit more difficult when one of my hobbies is writing and my job keeps me at a computer most of the time).

 

[dreng3]

So, I've done remote learning as part of a test-prep curriculum and have worked out of my home office for several years now. I'm generally inclined to not favor remote learning absent atypical circumstances as there's a lot of demands that come from learning and working from home that are not needed from an office.

For one, it requires a serious commitment to personal structure that is easier in institutionalized settings such as an office and school. One's environment helps prime their expectations and actions to more

Second, those environments are essential social groups that assist with personal growth as well as meeting essential needs of a healthy person (very few people benefit from a lack of social interaction). Intermediary systems (phone, text, video, etc.) simply do not provide the same level of benefit largely because our brains do not register such interactions in the same way they would with in person interaction.

Third, long term, the isolation from remote work/learning grates on you and tends to exacerbate mental illness such as anxiety, depression, and other ailments due to the lack of regular in-person contact with people.

An impressively accurate presentation of most of the ills I associate with remote learning, though I'd add in the lack of inclusivity on the part of the educator. In retrospect I think I'd rather see the children of these years (that might be how long it'll take) focus less on their education and more on their mental health. The 12 years of somewhat forced social interaction is quite important to the kids and a year of remote learning can in no way replace that. If we force the kids to learn in the current environment I am certain that there will be permanent, and possibly severe, consequences in terms of their mental health.

 

[Agema]

As a fellow educator I have to disagree, at least if you're making a generalized statement. Where I'm from we're educated according to the principle of inclusion, which includes catering to different levels of skill amongst the students. Merely conveying knowledge isn't sufficient we always need to consider whether or not we're conveying in the way that is most useful to the audience. Unfortunately remote learning isn't the most useful form for most students since learning is, largely, a social activity and sparring is a central element to learning, which is restricted when teaching remotely.
Of course we place a greater burden on those enrolled in colleges, but even then, the method should be adapted to the students, not the other way around.

Well, there are a lot of constraints. What we can do is also dictated by resources, class size, time, space (room type) and so on. Some of my teaching, I have one hour to get across a lot of material to 150+ students and no support staff. It's a lecture. Nothing else is really possible. Interactivity is vastly limited. I can do some form of flipped classroom, but complex tasks are difficult because so it's so hard, so little assistance can be given to individuals or groups: maybe some case studies for them to chew over or a Kahoot quiz: even MCQs can be brutal and test higher cognitive realms with enough time and thought put into their design - but do I have that sort of time?

The final year BSc. stuff (class sizes <20) is much more interesting and I can do a lot more. This is split in my course nominally about 2:1 didactic : interactive. Although the boundaries are quite blurred, as a fair chunk of the didactic sessions will be talking through concepts with students rather than just telling them stuff they need to remember.

There is an expectation that students, especially nearer the end of a degree, exercise considerable autonomy. By my experience they like to be spoon-fed, but my aim is to encourage them to do things for themselves. I find the results... mixed. Even some of the really smart ones, they'll get good degrees, but they don't have any real curiosity or initiative: they just want to you to tell them what they need to put on their exam paper to get a high mark. You try to get them to think about stuff, but mostly what they're thinking is "Can't you just tell us the answer?"

 

[SupahEwok]

As someone who mostly had mediocre teachers in college, and was frankly significantly smarter than most of his classmates, I probably skipped 60-70% of all of my college lectures, because the professors would post the lecture slides online and (most) of them didn't bug me about attendance, and my only regret is that I couldn't skip more. I got to know my fellow students through working a student job, and from that can confirm that there wasn't really a social element to classes that I was missing. It was usually just texts and emails to each other asking if somebody had solved a particular problem, and I'm rather glad that I flew under the radar of most of my fellows so that I wasn't pestered 24/7.

Now, a great lecturer is something else, but in my experience, most professors aren't great lecturers. I'd rather hack it out myself with the textbook and the lecture slides than listen to somebody just read off of the slides in a droning voice.

That said, the onset of the pandemic put me into a huge depression spiral from isolation. I lived in a city separated from family, could no longer see friends, could not go to work, had no one to come home to. I'm not a social guy, I don't need much, but having no reason to leave the apartment other than to get food did an immense number on my mental health. I think I could have gotten through it if I could have moved back to my parents 3 hours away sooner, but I was bound to the university because one of my classes required specialized software that the university was not willing to allow me to remotely access; I would have to go to a computer lab, and be the only one in there at a time, so not even the paltry relief of simply seeing another student.

Had to just cut my courses for the semester and leave. I was in a bad place. And was immediately better when I was back at my parents'. They were the only ones I saw every day, but even that was enough for me (okay, their doggo helped too).

So I sympathize if online learning is messing you up. I don't mind it in general, but it combined with everything else about the pandemic, it's rough for everyone. Hope you can power through it, there's nothing else for it unfortunately.

Unfortunately remote learning isn't the most useful form for most students since learning is, largely, a social activity and sparring is a central element to learning, which is restricted when teaching remotely.

Hard disagree there, chief. Most of my higher learning that is worth a damn has been self-motivated and initiated.

 

[dreng3]

Hard disagree there, chief. Most of my higher learning that is worth a damn has been self-motivated and initiated.

Congrats, you're an outlier. Most higher education is still better reinforced when you learn with others compared to by yourself. Granted, the social aspect is more important for those below college age, but even so, engaging topics and material through the eyes of another person expands your perspective and makes learning more rewarding and improves motivation.
Not to say that there is anything wrong with how it worked for you, I personally felt that a lot of my professors spent a lot of time talking about basic topics or just weren't fast enough. But even so it always becomes easier to prep and keep myself engaged when I can communicate with like minded individuals, even if it is only complaining about the material or poking fun at an author.

 

[Agema]

Hard disagree there, chief. Most of my higher learning that is worth a damn has been self-motivated and initiated.

This is an important point: you get out of a degree what you put into it.

You can really tell the students who engage and get stuck in. Most of the high achievers do, because they innately get the importance of getting stuck in, even if they don't particularly enjoy the work. And even amongst the less gifted, you get some students who may not be the sharpest tools in the box, but with the right passion, attitude and effort they can pull off some good work and shine. They take that on into their careers, they will do fine.

I struggle most with the ones just cruising through. I think a big chunk of our students are ones who didn't really know what they wanted to do and still don't. There's no passion, no drive, no curiosity, no initiative: they just have this vague idea of getting a degree in something/anything, and it's a case of doing stuff until they (hopefully) get a piece of paper at the end with a qualification on. And then some of them blame us when it's not as good a result as they wanted.

 

[Trunkage]

Hard disagree there, chief. Most of my higher learning that is worth a damn has been self-motivated and initiated.

I used to think that a uni degree was absolutely useless while I was doing it.

Then I went to work and realied that no boss gives a flying fuck about you and you definitely won't learn off them. McDonald's can teach you more than most bosses. And I've been through many bosses over a few different industries

OT: I've got a degree in person. My main friends I have from uni I did no courses with. It was more parties. And every single one of them adds their input into how I met my partner, which was also at a uni party that I wasnt meant to attend. So the in person stuff may not have helped. I made no connections

I have tried three diplomas all online. I did two but did all the work in a rush. So online wasn't that great either

 

[Agema]

Then I went to work and realied that no boss gives a flying fuck about you and you definitely won't learn off them. McDonald's can teach you more than most bosses. And I've been through many bosses over a few different industries

A good boss is worth their weight in gold.

I've partly chosen well, and partly been lucky with mine. They've mostly been very supportive, provided sound advice, helped and encouraged my career development. It's worth bearing in mind lots of people are made bosses because they're good at their job - which if a sort of "technical" capability doesn't actually mean they're good as a manager in ways that matter: a brilliant programmer might not actually be any good at running a team of programmers. Management often reflects two strands it seems to me: of people, and of projects. And many managers are promoted because they can do one, but maybe aren't so hot at the other.

 

[SilentPony]

I'm in 3 online classes and I haven't learned a thing. I hate it. Its always read this chapter, then post 3 things you didn't know, and 1 thing you didn't understand.
and one of the classes is Bar and Beverage management. How the fuck do you not know about intoxication behavior or when to cut someone off?

 

[SupahEwok]

I'm in 3 online classes and I haven't learned a thing. I hate it. Its always read this chapter, then post 3 things you didn't know, and 1 thing you didn't understand.
and one of the classes is Bar and Beverage management. How the fuck do you not know about intoxication behavior or when to cut someone off?

You know you can lie, right?