OSHA SUSPENDS Biden's Mandate, SCATHING Court Opinion Calls It "STAGGERINGLY Overbroad"

Phoenixmgs

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I'm not interested in you trying to turn this into a soapbox about another topic.

You rely on, and repost, shoddy/clickbait sources, and it undermines any credibility you're trying to build.
Tell me what was wrong in the reporting in the video. If you can't find anything wrong, then stop complaining.
 

Avnger

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Tell me what was wrong in the reporting in the video. If you can't find anything wrong, then stop complaining.
If you can't be bothered to make an actual argument with actual sources, why should anyone else be forced to in response?

Let's have you try it....

Prove this video is wrong:
 

Buyetyen

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Tell me what was wrong in the reporting in the video. If you can't find anything wrong, then stop complaining.
Pay us. If we're going to be doing your research for you, then we deserve some compensation.
 

Silvanus

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Tell me what was wrong in the reporting in the video. If you can't find anything wrong, then stop complaining.
It's less to do with factual inaccuracy-- nobody is denying that the court placed a temporary halt on the mandate, for instance-- and more to do with the highly partisan, celebratory nature of the source, and the clickbait presentation of the title. You're not going to actually engage with pro-vaccine people if you just post sources that sling shit at them.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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If you can't be bothered to make an actual argument with actual sources, why should anyone else be forced to in response?

Let's have you try it....

Prove this video is wrong:
Pay us. If we're going to be doing your research for you, then we deserve some compensation.
Reading from the 200+ page court report is not an actual source?

Using the same argument that Silvanus does, that video is obviously a bad source because the dude can't even do his own hair. Doing that is easier than actually debating anything and having an actual conversation. I've seen a few of his videos and they really haven't been that good. Skimming though the video, it seems like he's just going after the super low hanging fruit conspiracies instead of trying to have an actual conversation. Yeah, 5G towers don't cause coronavirus but nobody (but like dozens of people) are claiming that, that's not what most people are actual discussing.


It's less to do with factual inaccuracy-- nobody is denying that the court placed a temporary halt on the mandate, for instance-- and more to do with the highly partisan, celebratory nature of the source, and the clickbait presentation of the title. You're not going to actually engage with pro-vaccine people if you just post sources that sling shit at them.
The Hill is very valid news source and if you look at the media bias ratings, it's basically as dead center (non bias to the right or left) as you can get. Quoting the court's report in the title/headline is "clickbait". The court literally did destroy the legality of the mandate, that's not clickbait, it happened, it's there in the report. The video has nothing to do with being pro or anti vaccine. The legality of the mandate has nothing to with being pro or anti vaccine. A lot of doctors aren't pro mandate either because of a little thing called implied consent. Will all of them recommend the vaccine (outside of very rare instances)? Most definitely. Will they all be for forcing people to get a vaccine? Definitely not.

Also, do you know why Britain did a vaccine mandate way back and stopped doing mandates (as you're from Britain I believe)? Because not doing mandates got more people vaccinated. A mandate will get more vaccinated in the short-term but will cause less vaccinations in the long-term.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Vaccine mandate for health care workers blocked as well because, guess what, it's illegal.

Is this a valid source and not too clickbaity for all ya even though the NY Times is more biased than The Hill?
 

Silvanus

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The Hill is very valid news source and if you look at the media bias ratings, it's basically as dead center (non bias to the right or left) as you can get. Quoting the court's report in the title/headline is "clickbait". The court literally did destroy the legality of the mandate, that's not clickbait, it happened, it's there in the report. The video has nothing to do with being pro or anti vaccine. The legality of the mandate has nothing to with being pro or anti vaccine. A lot of doctors aren't pro mandate either because of a little thing called implied consent. Will all of them recommend the vaccine (outside of very rare instances)? Most definitely. Will they all be for forcing people to get a vaccine? Definitely not.
"Destroy the legality", yes, that's clickbait. Unless you're also happy to concede that the numerous Trump-era efforts that were also deemed illegal or improper are too.

Because let's be clear: he had the least respect for the judicial process of any modern president.

Also, do you know why Britain did a vaccine mandate way back and stopped doing mandates (as you're from Britain I believe)? Because not doing mandates got more people vaccinated. A mandate will get more vaccinated in the short-term but will cause less vaccinations in the long-term.
No, that's not the reason, as anyone who has lived here knows.
 

Phoenixmgs

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"Destroy the legality", yes, that's clickbait. Unless you're also happy to concede that the numerous Trump-era efforts that were also deemed illegal or improper are too.

Because let's be clear: he had the least respect for the judicial process of any modern president.
Whatever is illegal is illegal, I don't care if I'm for or against whatever "it" is. How are you gonna say the court didn't destroy the legally of it on multiple fronts? That is literally what happened and it's not clickbait.

Here's what the Judge from the NY Times article about the health worker mandate said:
There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million health care workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency,” Judge Doughty, of U.S. District Court for the Western District of Louisiana, wrote. He added: “It is not clear that even an act of Congress mandating a vaccine would be constitutional.

Democrats literally said they couldn't mandate the vaccine (because they knew it was illegal) and they still did it anyway. THAT IS BAD. I don't care if Trump did more or less similar things, they're all equally bad. Trump put a moratorium on evictions during covid, which was illegal, but I'm guessing your for that so that's probably a-ok in your book then. You do realize I don't like Trump very much at all, right? Trump is literally a con man IMO. Right now, I actually think Trump would've done better than Biden, which is something I would've thought I'd never say. They both suck massively and the vote is always for the "best of the worst". You keep making this about teams when I'm not a fan of either of them, I didn't vote for democrats or republicans in the election. My "team" is always losing, but I'm used to it being a Cubs fan and all.

No, that's not the reason, as anyone who has lived here knows.

Yet, history also reveals significant problems with compulsory vaccinations. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that mandates increase hesitancy, rather than reduce it. In 1853, the English government made smallpox vaccination compulsory. As in Austria today, this new policy was met with widespread protest. It kick-started a concerted and coordinated anti-vaccination movement, that spread its tentacles across the globe.

There were riots in several industrial English towns, like Leicester, and new “anti-vaccination leagues” were established. These leagues published pamphlets and held rallies, and communicated with kindred spirits abroad. The Anti-Vaccination Society of America was founded in 1879, following a visit by leading British anti-vaccinationist William Tebb.

Compulsory vaccination was understood as a tool of an increasingly interventionist government, and many of the protesters were working class people, who had been living under the brutalising regime of workhouses and the Poor Law. In 1898, the British Parliament passed an act to allow parents to opt out of the compulsory system, and the legislation was expanded in 1907. Since then, and in contrast to many other western nations, Britain has avoided vaccine mandates entirely.

Indeed, though you can make a convincing case that Britain was the birthplace of the nineteenth century global anti-vaccination movement, in the twentieth century, vaccines became unusually popular in the UK.

This change was neither linear nor straightforward, but concerted campaigns on behalf of an increasingly respected, well-resourced, and trusted welfare state and scientific community transformed controversial routine vaccinations into commonplace medical interventions. When the NHS was founded in 1948, two vaccines were routinely given to children. By 2018, that number had risen to 17. Polio has been a particular success story. The first effective vaccine was developed in 1952, and today, around 94 per cent of British children are vaccinated against the disease before their first birthday.

So while there has been a lot of coverage of vaccine hesitancy here in Britain during the pandemic, that does not accurately reflect the uptake of either the Covid-19 vaccines, or of jabs more generally.

In a 2016 survey, 89.6 per cent of British respondents agreed or strongly agreed that vaccinations were important; 84 per cent concurred that they were safe; and 86.7 per cent agreed that vaccination was effective. Almost 90 per cent of Britons over the age of 12 have received at least one dose of the Covid-19 vaccine – a figure achieved without vaccine mandates or widespread use of passports.
Read More

History shows us Covid vaccine passports will not increase jab uptake

At this stage of the pandemic, Austria – along with other nations – has already vaccinated those who would do so voluntarily. We know from both historical data and more recent experience that at least some of those who remain are likely to have deep-seated suspicions of both public health systems and the state, often borne of experiences of marginalisation and memories of abuse and exploitation. Vaccine mandates will do nothing to ameliorate these concerns; indeed, they are more likely to exacerbate them.
 
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Trunkage

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Whatever is illegal is illegal, I don't care if I'm for or against whatever "it" is. How are you gonna say the court didn't destroy the legally of it on multiple fronts? That is literally what happened and it's not clickbait.

Here's what the Judge from the NY Times article about the health worker mandate said:
There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million health care workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency,” Judge Doughty, of U.S. District Court for the Western District of Louisiana, wrote. He added: “It is not clear that even an act of Congress mandating a vaccine would be constitutional.

Democrats literally said they couldn't mandate the vaccine (because they knew it was illegal) and they still did it anyway. THAT IS BAD. I don't care if Trump did more or less similar things, they're all equally bad. Trump put a moratorium on evictions during covid, which was illegal, but I'm guessing your for that so that's probably a-ok in your book then. You do realize I don't like Trump very much at all, right? Trump is literally a con man IMO. Right now, I actually think Trump would've done better than Biden, which is something I would've thought I'd never say. They both suck massively and the vote is always for the "best of the worst". You keep making this about teams when I'm not a fan of either of them, I didn't vote for democrats or republicans in the election. My "team" is always losing, but I'm used to it being a Cubs fan and all.



Yet, history also reveals significant problems with compulsory vaccinations. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that mandates increase hesitancy, rather than reduce it. In 1853, the English government made smallpox vaccination compulsory. As in Austria today, this new policy was met with widespread protest. It kick-started a concerted and coordinated anti-vaccination movement, that spread its tentacles across the globe.

There were riots in several industrial English towns, like Leicester, and new “anti-vaccination leagues” were established. These leagues published pamphlets and held rallies, and communicated with kindred spirits abroad. The Anti-Vaccination Society of America was founded in 1879, following a visit by leading British anti-vaccinationist William Tebb.

Compulsory vaccination was understood as a tool of an increasingly interventionist government, and many of the protesters were working class people, who had been living under the brutalising regime of workhouses and the Poor Law. In 1898, the British Parliament passed an act to allow parents to opt out of the compulsory system, and the legislation was expanded in 1907. Since then, and in contrast to many other western nations, Britain has avoided vaccine mandates entirely.

Indeed, though you can make a convincing case that Britain was the birthplace of the nineteenth century global anti-vaccination movement, in the twentieth century, vaccines became unusually popular in the UK.

This change was neither linear nor straightforward, but concerted campaigns on behalf of an increasingly respected, well-resourced, and trusted welfare state and scientific community transformed controversial routine vaccinations into commonplace medical interventions. When the NHS was founded in 1948, two vaccines were routinely given to children. By 2018, that number had risen to 17. Polio has been a particular success story. The first effective vaccine was developed in 1952, and today, around 94 per cent of British children are vaccinated against the disease before their first birthday.

So while there has been a lot of coverage of vaccine hesitancy here in Britain during the pandemic, that does not accurately reflect the uptake of either the Covid-19 vaccines, or of jabs more generally.

In a 2016 survey, 89.6 per cent of British respondents agreed or strongly agreed that vaccinations were important; 84 per cent concurred that they were safe; and 86.7 per cent agreed that vaccination was effective. Almost 90 per cent of Britons over the age of 12 have received at least one dose of the Covid-19 vaccine – a figure achieved without vaccine mandates or widespread use of passports.
Read More

History shows us Covid vaccine passports will not increase jab uptake

At this stage of the pandemic, Austria – along with other nations – has already vaccinated those who would do so voluntarily. We know from both historical data and more recent experience that at least some of those who remain are likely to have deep-seated suspicions of both public health systems and the state, often borne of experiences of marginalisation and memories of abuse and exploitation. Vaccine mandates will do nothing to ameliorate these concerns; indeed, they are more likely to exacerbate them.
So, if the passport will not increaee jab intake, are the antivaxxers staying at home? Or illegally creating their own passports?
 

Silvanus

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Whatever is illegal is illegal, I don't care if I'm for or against whatever "it" is. How are you gonna say the court didn't destroy the legally of it on multiple fronts? That is literally what happened and it's not clickbait.

Here's what the Judge from the NY Times article about the health worker mandate said:
There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million health care workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency,” Judge Doughty, of U.S. District Court for the Western District of Louisiana, wrote. He added: “It is not clear that even an act of Congress mandating a vaccine would be constitutional.

Democrats literally said they couldn't mandate the vaccine (because they knew it was illegal) and they still did it anyway. THAT IS BAD. I don't care if Trump did more or less similar things, they're all equally bad. Trump put a moratorium on evictions during covid, which was illegal, but I'm guessing your for that so that's probably a-ok in your book then. You do realize I don't like Trump very much at all, right? Trump is literally a con man IMO. Right now, I actually think Trump would've done better than Biden, which is something I would've thought I'd never say. They both suck massively and the vote is always for the "best of the worst". You keep making this about teams when I'm not a fan of either of them, I didn't vote for democrats or republicans in the election. My "team" is always losing, but I'm used to it being a Cubs fan and all.
That's pretty normal wording for a court ruling, it's not particularly out of the ordinary. What it represents is just that particular court's view (the Fifth Circuit being a particularly conservative one, note).

But I'm not actually disputing whether or not it's illegal or not. What I find off-putting is the clickbaity hyperbole. Nobody says "X DESTROYS Y!!!" unless you're on a pretty childish or partisan source.


Right, so you're basing what the current UK population believes on the smallpox vaccination effort of the 1850s? We've changed somewhat. Well, most of us.

The current UK government is not basing its public health policy on this stuff. The current UK government is basing its public health policy on protecting business income, balanced occasionally with a hesitation to look too mean or stupid.
 

CriticalGaming

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The senate is voting to block the vaccine mandate for private businesses this week. I believe they have already nixed the mandate for federal employees but that might still just be in limbo. Not sure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm against mandates. I would recommend people get at least a baseline two dose vaccine but if you don't want it you should not be force by anyone to get it. We already have laws on the books about medical information being private and businesses cannot chose to hire you on whether or not you have medical conditions nor can anyone ask you about medical history. This is no different.

Really instead of a vaccine mandate they should impliment laws against letting employees work while sick. The amount of people that go to work on a day basis with colds and early or lingering flu symptoms is insane, because sick leave and vacation time is so limited on people that they end up having to work when they really shouldn't.
 
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Avnger

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The senate is voting to block the vaccine mandate for private businesses this week. I believe they have already nixed the mandate for federal employees but that might still just be in limbo. Not sure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm against mandates. I would recommend people get at least a baseline two dose vaccine but if you don't want it you should not be force by anyone to get it. We already have laws on the books about medical information being private and businesses cannot chose to hire you on whether or not you have medical conditions nor can anyone ask you about medical history. This is no different.

Really instead of a vaccine mandate they should impliment laws against letting employees work while sick. The amount of people that go to work on a day basis with colds and early or lingering flu symptoms is insane, because sick leave and vacation time is so limited on people that they end up having to work when they really shouldn't.
You do know that millions of Americans are subject to vaccine mandates through work and school and have been for literally centuries, right?

Enroll in a public (and most private) elementary/middle/high school? Vaccine requirements.
Enroll in a college/university? Vaccine requirements.
Work in the medical industry? Vaccine requirements.
Join the military? Vaccine requirements.
Go to visit a foreign country and want to return without quarantining? Vaccine requirements.
Work in a food-handling industry? Vaccine requirements.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Work in a food-handling industry? Vaccine requirements.
Company paid for, and it appears to be severly limited, because no restaurant I've ever worked for has ever asked for any sort of immunization.

Enroll in a public (and most private) elementary/middle/high school? Vaccine requirements.
I'd argue that immunizations and vaccines are different things. Because outside of a few rounds of these shots as kids you never get them again.

I was in the Navy from 02-05 and I only needed shots when i was deployed overseas once. Soldiers who stay in country did not need them, at least then.

Frankly of all these examples I don't think they are very well (if at all enforced) Because after the Navy i went to college, didn't have to submit proof of any sort of immunizations. The only immunizations i ever needed were for elementary school and then I think also High School.

Also notice that none of those immunizations (unless i missed it) were for flu shots. Which is what Covid is becoming. And the longer this goes on the more doses they want people to take. So at what point will people be vaccinated enough? 3 shots? No. 4 shots? No? Every 6 months till death? And at what point will we be able to take our masks off?

It all seems so drawn out especially when we are nearly 80% full vaccinated at this point. Are they going to bog us down with this crap until 100%? Because that's never gonna happen.
 

Avnger

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Company paid for, and it appears to be severly limited, because no restaurant I've ever worked for has ever asked for any sort of immunization.
COVID vaccines are free too. And the point wasn't to illustrate that all food-service workers have mandatory vaccinations. It was to point out your bullshit act that vaccine mandates are some new, scary thing.

I'd argue that immunizations and vaccines are different things. Because outside of a few rounds of these shots as kids you never get them again.
Difference without a distinction.

I was in the Navy from 02-05 and I only needed shots when i was deployed overseas once. Soldiers who stay in country did not need them, at least then.
You were vaccinated on intake to basic at the latest as an enlistee. It's been a part of all services' bootcamps for decades if not centuries. Officers are vaccinated upon arriving at their service academy for summer intake, first official ROTC training (summer cruises for middies, field training for AF cadets, summer training for cadets), or arriving at OTS/OCS.
 

Fallen Soldier

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Isn’t there historical precedent for vaccine mandates? I swear America had one during the Spanish flu epidemic.
 

Satinavian

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Right, so you're basing what the current UK population believes on the smallpox vaccination effort of the 1850s? We've changed somewhat. Well, most of us.
It's an opinion piece about the vaccine mandate in Austria talking near exclusively about old British history...

Personally i am all for a mandate. Here in Germany we have tremendous trouble with the forth wave. We only stopped prioritising in summer and only early fall you could say everyone who wanzed should have gotten two doses already. So this is the first wave where pretty much all the unvaccinated are anti-vaxxers. And people start blaming them. A lot.
Before, anti-vaxxers where only loud and obnoxious but could be ignored as long as they were not violent (some were unfortunately). Now it is "Anti-vaxxers have ruined our Christmas holydays" and the other side starts to get increasingly hostile as well.

I think, if we had had a mandate, some people might have complained but followed it anyway and the discussion would have been over long ago.