Over seventy dead in vehicular attack in Nice, France

[Poetic Nova]

*sigh*

This is happening so often that I've grown numb to this honestly.
Absolutely fucking bullshit that people can go this far however.

And this also just ads fuel to the fire that's called being a misanthrope.

 

[Megalodon]

Then again, you can find passages calling for violence in pretty much every Abrahamic religion's religious texts so cherry picking those is pretty pointless. You don't have that irrational fear of Christianity, do you?

No, but then I don't consider a distaste for Islam (note, Islam not Muslims) to be an 'irrational fear', especially when we can't seem to go 6 months without some Islamic fuckwit causing carnage in a European city. At this point, any fear/hatred people experience is starting to look pretty rational.

I also have a great deal of distaste for Christianity as well. There's no shortage of harmful ideas perpetuated in it's name. However, in the modern age it's by far the lesser of two evils.

For example, the film Dogma. Hilarious film, takes a very irreverent tone towards the Church. Summed up quite well by these clips:

Now if I was a devout Christian, I can see myself very easily hating this film for it's treatment of my faith, and yet I'm unaware of mass Christian protests against this film. No riots, threats and murders directed towards either Kevin Smith or the USA for not respecting Christianity. I live in hope that one day we'll see a film like Dogma made that takes the piss out of Islam the same way Dogma takes digs at Christianity. That would truly be progress for humanity. But currently such a project is impossible, because people would die if a film like this was made about Islam.

 

[Cowabungaa]

snip

Distaste? Sure, I do too. But not fear for Islam extremists. Anxious about extremists? I admit, after Brussels and considering how close I live to that there's some of that. But just for the extremists, Islam as such is not making me afraid.

It's funny that you use a movie as an example. Because something like that has been made about Islam. It's called Four Lions, it's hilarious and didn't cause rioting and deaths in the UK where it was made.

 

[Parasondox]

Then again, you can find passages calling for violence in pretty much every Abrahamic religion's religious texts so cherry picking those is pretty pointless. You don't have that irrational fear of Christianity, do you?

No, but then I don't consider a distaste for Islam (note, Islam not Muslims) to be an 'irrational fear', especially when we can't seem to go 6 months without some Islamic fuckwit causing carnage in a European city. At this point, any fear/hatred people experience is starting to look pretty rational.

I also have a great deal of distaste for Christianity as well. There's no shortage of harmful ideas perpetuated in it's name. However, in the modern age it's by far the lesser of two evils.

For example, the film Dogma. Hilarious film, takes a very irreverent tone towards the Church. Summed up quite well by these clips:

Now if I was a devout Christian, I can see myself very easily hating this film for it's treatment of my faith, and yet I'm unaware of mass Christian protests against this film. No riots, threats and murders directed towards either Kevin Smith or the USA for not respecting Christianity. I live in hope that one day we'll see a film like Dogma made that takes the piss out of Islam the same way Dogma takes digs at Christianity. That would truly be progress for humanity. But currently such a project is impossible, because people would die if a film like this was made about Islam.

Are you very very sure? I assume Westboro Baptist Church had a lot to say. Seeing as they are the extreme Christian group who keep showing posters saying "God Hates Fags", disrupt soldiers funerals and are just awful, awful people.

Anyway, Dogma. Funny movie. Did piss of Christians but not in a violent way. They mostly pray for heathens to suffer in hell. Job done.

 

[Parasondox]

snip

Distaste? Sure, I do too. But not fear for Islam extremists. Anxious about extremists? I admit, after Brussels and considering how close I live to that there's some of that. But just for the extremists, Islam as such is not making me afraid.

It's funny that you use a movie as an example. Because something like that has been made about Islam. It's called Four Lions, it's hilarious and didn't cause rioting and deaths in the UK where it was made.

Funny ass movie. Gave me some belly aching laughs too. Good comedy I like. Need to watch more movies. Stranger Things was a blast.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Are you very very sure? I assume Westboro Baptist Church had a lot to say. Seeing as they are the extreme Christian group who keep showing posters saying "God Hates Fags", disrupt soldiers funerals and are just awful, awful people.

Yeah, but that's about the worst Christian extremists can do now; Be vicious trolls. If only we'd be so lucky with the Islamic crazies.

You'd think those 72 virgins in heaven would've run out by now.

 

[Andothul]

At the risk of sounding like a doomsayer this year 2016 seems like the beginning of 3/4's a centuries work to globalize the world.
For better or worse, the world is largely rejecting globalization and the foundations of it are beginning to crack and crumble all around us.

Whether it be ISIS, Brexit, The (still evolving story) seeming fall of Turkey, The escalation in the South China Sea, the exposure of Brazil. The world is going to hell a lot faster than people i think expected. It's funny and ironic to me that Battlefield 1 comes out this year as I wouldn't be surprised if over the next few years we see the world devolve into a Pre WW1 level of instability and hostility.

 

[sky14kemea]

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[HEADING=2]Mod Voice[/HEADING] Whatever

Take it somewhere else guys. This is disrespectful and unkind to what the thread is about. If you want to argue about religion take it to the R&P forums. I will be handing out warnings from this point on.

 

[Terminal Blue]

He had this on his facebook:

Do you have more information, because I notice whoever made that picture has cropped the date..

Literally the only thing I can find, beyond being a Muslim, to suggest a terrorist intent is that he shouted the Takbir before he died. The thing is, that is not an uncommon thing for a Muslim, or anyone with an arabic speaking background, to do. The phrase serves as a general display of strong emotion, to assume it makes someone an Islamist is like assuming that shouting "God damn it" means that someone is a Christian extremist.

He was known to police. He was still on his 6 months probation for assault.

Being known to police and being known to security services are two different things. From the sounds of it, the guy was an asshole who was abusive to his wife and violent to people around him. These are not traits particularly indicative of terrorism, although they do suggest the kind of violent and angry person we tend to find at the heart of many mass murders.

Until we find the evidence of contact with terrorist networks, with radicalization, evidence of ISIS support or extremist Islamic views then I'm really uncomfortable with labelling every Muslim who does a bad thing a terrorist by default. If anything, what we know so far suggests the opposite, it suggests someone who was not pious, drank alcohol, didn't pray, but seemed to have very deep personal problems and a lot of anger.

Again, I'm not saying it won't turn out to be a terrorist attack. But can we maybe defer judgement and just wait for the evidence, and perhaps in the meantime we can concentrate on the fact that a lot of people died. I understand trying to make sense of that, but leaping to conclusions does not help them or their families.

This wasn't a random act of violence, it was pre-meditated, with a higher casualty rate than Breivik's terrorist attack.

So what?

Breivik is not a terrorist because he killed a lot of people, he's a terrorist because he did it for political reasons (although he is also mentally ill, one of the major challenges we face is that people who are attracted to extreme or violent ideologies often are mentally ill - it's not always easy to separate one from the other). Regardless, there has to be something more to being a terrorist than just being a Muslim, right?

Many mass killings are pre-meditated to some degree. Again, it says nothing about motivation. Let's wait for the evidence on that, if nothing else because the type of language which gets used has real consequences for people. There will be revenge attacks, and I don't think the people who have died or their families would want innocent people to be attacked and hurt based on a bunch of rumours.

Again, I understand that when something bad happens there's this impulse to make sense of it or to understand why, but sometimes that impulse isn't helpful.

Let's grieve now, and judge later.

 

[Parasondox]

He had this on his facebook:

Do you have more information, because I notice whoever made that picture has cropped the date..

Literally the only thing I can find, beyond being a Muslim, to suggest a terrorist intent is that he shouted the Takbir before he died. The thing is, that is not an uncommon thing for a Muslim, or anyone with an arabic speaking background, to do. The phrase serves as a general display of strong emotion, to assume it makes someone an Islamist is like assuming that shouting "God damn it" means that someone is a Christian extremist.

He was known to police. He was still on his 6 months probation for assault.

Being known to police and being known to security services are two different things. From the sounds of it, the guy was an asshole who was abusive to his wife and violent to people around him. These are not traits particularly indicative of terrorism, although they do suggest the kind of violent and angry person we tend to find at the heart of many mass murders.

Until we find the evidence of contact with terrorist networks, with radicalization, evidence of ISIS support or extremist Islamic views then I'm really uncomfortable with labelling every Muslim who does a bad thing a terrorist by default. If anything, what we know so far suggests the opposite, it suggests someone who was not pious, drank alcohol, didn't pray, but seemed to have very deep personal problems and a lot of anger.

Again, I'm not saying it won't turn out to be a terrorist attack. But can we maybe defer judgement and just wait for the evidence, and perhaps in the meantime we can concentrate on the fact that a lot of people died. I understand trying to make sense of that, but leaping to conclusions does not help them or their families.

This wasn't a random act of violence, it was pre-meditated, with a higher casualty rate than Breivik's terrorist attack.

So what?

Breivik is not a terrorist because he killed a lot of people, he's a terrorist because he did it for political reasons (although he is also mentally ill, one of the major challenges we face is that people who are attracted to extreme or violent ideologies often are mentally ill - it's not always easy to separate one from the other). Regardless, there has to be something more to being a terrorist than just being a Muslim, right?

Many mass killings are pre-meditated to some degree. Again, it says nothing about motivation. Let's wait for the evidence on that, if nothing else because the type of language which gets used has real consequences for people. There will be revenge attacks, and I don't think the people who have died or their families would want innocent people to be attacked and hurt based on a bunch of rumours.

Again, I understand that when something bad happens there's this impulse to make sense of it or to understand why, but sometimes that impulse isn't helpful.

Let's grieve now, and judge later.

It sounds like a news profile list.

If brown with Arabic sounding name and Muslim = Terrorist
If white with a gun and shoots several to hundreds of people in a public area = Mental Illness
If black and lives in a "ghetto" low income area = Part of a gang/Gang shooting

I'll stop. you get the picture.

Also extreme groups recruit those with, not always but most often, those with low IQ. That sounded insulting sorry. They go for those who they manipulate easily. That still doesn't explain why privately taught kids in the UK go off to ISIS. Could be that sense of belonging and family they wanted.

 

[Namehere]

It occurs to me that it seems rather tragic one's unknown life should be revealed to the world only to revolve around how it ended.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Also extreme groups recruit those with, not always but most often, those with low IQ. That sounded insulting sorry. They go for those who they manipulate easily. That still doesn't explain why privately taught kids in the UK go off to ISIS. Could be that sense of belonging and family they wanted.

Though being privately taught doesn't garuntee intelligence or a resistance to manipulation, but certainly anger and confusion can lead to illogical decisions during kid/teenage years. Along with any potential mental health problems. I remember some crazy stupid things that were felt and done as a kid, through various problems. Daren't think how possible it would have been to be persuaded to fall to those emotions along with a sense of belonging. A lost mind can be lead to all sorts of dark places.

 

[Parasondox]

Also extreme groups recruit those with, not always but most often, those with low IQ. That sounded insulting sorry. They go for those who they manipulate easily. That still doesn't explain why privately taught kids in the UK go off to ISIS. Could be that sense of belonging and family they wanted.

Though being privately taught doesn't garuntee intelligence or a resistance to manipulation, but certainly anger and confusion can lead to illogical decisions during kid/teenage years. Along with any potential mental health problems. I remember some crazy stupid things that were felt and done as a kid, through various problems. Daren't think how possible it would have been to be persuaded to fall to those emotions along with a sense of belonging. A lost mind can be lead to all sorts of dark places.

True. There are some really great teens/kids out there with ideas and a clear head but they can also fall victim to this fast pace and everly growing world we live it. Feeling the pressure from schools, parents, an adulthood waiting for them that doesn't seem too promising and bright and oh, if you are in the UK, having politicians play around with the school system each that makes it more and more complicated. Compared to when I was younger, GCSEs and A-Levels seems like mental torture in today's world. It's just sad that with all of that stress put on them, more mental illnesses can arise and the reaction and outcome of each teen can be very very different. Either positive or negative.

Mental illnesses and just mental thought in general needs to be looked at more with young people and more support is needed. Not to be vilified or ignored.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

True. There are some really great teens/kids out there with ideas and a clear head but they can also fall victim to this fast pace and everly growing world we live it. Feeling the pressure from schools, parents, an adulthood waiting for them that doesn't seem too promising and bright and oh, if you are in the UK, having politicians play around with the school system each that makes it more and more complicated. Compared to when I was younger, GCSEs and A-Levels seems like mental torture in today's world. It's just sad that with all of that stress put on them, more mental illnesses can arise and the reaction and outcome of each teen can be very very different. Either positive or negative.

Mental illnesses and just mental thought in general needs to be looked at more with young people and more support is needed. Not to be vilified or ignored.

Definitely there needs to be more public awareness with the fragility of the human mind in our many forms of high-pressured environments (which are not particularly improving in this current society). The number of people who assume those with mental issues are all just cuckoos who cannot function like "sane" humans, well the ratio so far is not a favourable one. The variety of problems that can develop are across a vast spectrum that are not so easily identifiable to the untrained eye. Also there are many who are self-aware enough they learn to hide their troubles from others and can go undiagnosed for years, furthering the potential damage, all through fear of vilification, shame, many other reasons too, including parents who are afraid to lose their kids. The more people who are aware, the more chance we have of avoiding disastrous actions from untreated problems that are allowed to fester and grow.

The US public in general I have observed currently hold some very outdated, archaic ideas on mental illness. And with their freedom of weapon ownership and privatised healthcare system, it is not a great combination for avoiding tragedies. A person snaps and goes nuts, they get dropped in the terrorist pigeon-hole if they're Muslim, or of any relation to Muslim family. Like you mentioned in earlier post. Humans love to try and judge by simple colours and small lists, some tribal instincts seem harder to kick when there are those who relish in them.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Lastly, ISIS are not and in no way represent Islam. If they did, they wouldn't bomb mosque during Friday pray and THE HOLY CITY!!! That's like a Christian group going, "Lets case hell in Bethlehem."

Oh, they very clearly represent Islam. Not all of it, but part of it. Because they refer to the Koran - and i don't care how wrongly they do that, because that's not important.
It's important what those guys believe, and they very strongly believe they act in the way the Islam wants them too and that is an issue.

But just because they're fucking idiots doesn't mean that does idiots do not represent the bad part of the islam.

 

[Parasondox]

Lastly, ISIS are not and in no way represent Islam. If they did, they wouldn't bomb mosque during Friday pray and THE HOLY CITY!!! That's like a Christian group going, "Lets case hell in Bethlehem."

Oh, they very clearly represent Islam. Not all of it, but part of it. Because they refer to the Koran - and i don't care how wrongly they do that, because that's not important.
It's important what those guys believe, and they very strongly believe they act in the way the Islam wants them too and that is an issue.

But just because they're fucking idiots doesn't mean that does idiots do not represent the bad part of the islam.

You mean nitpicking the Koran? Like how WBC nitpick the Bible to the extreme? This going to turn into a "real muslim/real christian" debate if I carry on. I refuse to.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Oh, they very clearly represent Islam. Not all of it, but part of it. Because they refer to the Koran - and i don't care how wrongly they do that, because that's not important.
It's important what those guys believe, and they very strongly believe they act in the way the Islam wants them too and that is an issue.

But just because they're fucking idiots doesn't mean that does idiots do not represent the bad part of the islam.

You mean nitpicking the Koran? Like how WBC nitpick the Bible to the extreme? This going to turn into a "real muslim/real christian" debate if I carry on. I refuse to.

I never would have such a debate, because "No true scotsman" debates are nonsense. To me, there is no "real x". If a person believes they are, they are - that is all that matters, even if they get it completly wrong.
And yes, those cunts nitpick the koran like every religious person nitpicks their scripture, they just focus on the more violent parts - but they're there nonetheless.

So, sayin' this has nothing to do with Islam or those people do not represent Islam can't be correct. If so many people missunderstand this to such a degree, then clearly there's an issue. And before someone goes "But it's a minority..." etc.: Idc how many they are, but judging by the increasing numbers of terrorist attacks all over the globe in the name of this religion there are to many.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

There seem to be at least two different camps; I see people who I think are in denial in the way islam itself contributes to these problems. Then there's a group that seems to think that that is a bigoted point of view, and if I understand them correctly, that these kind of events aren't so bad in the grand scheme of things.

I think personally think it isn't Islam.

I think it's humanity.

In any way, shape, or form, people will rise up with an idea to try to rule over others. The age of Youtube will be known as the age of Demagogue. People lost, angry, or overlooked feel marginalized. They look for a voice that speaks to their troubles, and more over, they look for a voice that also finds the persons to blame for their injustice.

It's happened for the rise of Atheism, The Born Agains, The Men's Rights Activists, The Feminists, Gun Rights Advocates, Gun Control Activists, The Ultra Liberals, the Ultra Republicans.... I just realized I don't even have enough time to list the various groups and their corresponding Youtube heroes. Because for every group I list, I'll have to list it's counter or the moderate of the two groups.

To be short, there are few humans alive who aren't convinced that the world will be better if all seven Billion people just thought the same way. The world would be better without Religion. This world is going down the tubes because so few people have faith. Everyone needs to stop being so sensitive and PC so we can do whatever we want. People wouldn't be so triggered if you just thought about others.

People are tired. They don't want to be told how to think any more, they don't want to be told to accept. They just want to power through.

And we have people who are snapping. We have those charismatic figures who step up and say "If you believe in it, you fight for it". It happens everywhere. With all ideas. It's not just Islam, but in truth Islam is currently the one with most 'warriors' behind the cause and creating fatalities all over the world. But I don't believe the faith, nor religion, nor race, nor anything.

I blame people. Their needs for superiority. Their close mindedness. Their need for vengeance over those who 'wronged them'. You can take these root ideas to the various Demagogues' messages.

Once you strip down the Rallying names for the group ('The Chosen Ones', 'The Enlightened', 'The Thinkers', 'The Faithful', 'The Red Pills'), The names for the 'enemies of the better world' ('Stupid Theists', 'The Backwards', 'Ghetto trash', 'red necks', 'The Patriarchy', 'Beta Males and Feminists', 'The PC'), and their various causes, you'll get the same message.

"We are right. They are not only limiting us, but hurting the world. Are you virtuous enough to stand by me and strike a blow"

It's when people are the most hurt do they think less and just want to hear about targets to take their anger out on.

 

[tzimize]

I know people care. We should care about it all because one death at the hand of man, is one too many no matter the location. My main point was with the news and the angle they play on all sides. Often lies, some times misinformation, sensationalizing a story, heating up emotions, adding fuel to the fire, 1 sided stories trying to create a "us versus them", "heroes and villains", type stories.

And for what? Ratings? Money? Power?

Well that's an issue with the commercialization of news. It has become a commodity instead of the public service it should be. Hence why I use so many news sources and I try to stick with public ones.

When people try to discuss these things the conversation is invariably sandbagged with accusations of racism (islam isn't even a race) or islamophobia, as if it is irrational to have fear for a religious beliefs that advocate for the slaughter of non-believers

Then again, you can find passages calling for violence in pretty much every Abrahamic religion's religious texts so cherry picking those is pretty pointless. You don't have that irrational fear of Christianity, do you?

Yeah well, as much as Christianity is fucking retarded what with their most ardent followers advocating creationism and all, I'm pretty sure most churches wouldnt advocate non-integration and the murder of infidels on a general basis.