Overkill Studios - The developers of Payday 2: Asks for 20$ "donations"

[sanquin]

"But then no one might get the new content!" So effing what! If you don't want to buy it, don't! And if you do think the promise of more content later is enough to justify it, then DO buy it! I'd...consider you an idiot for spending 20 dollars on the promise of new content in the future considering game devs' reputation these days. (It might be crap, it might be less, it might not come out at all anyway.) But that's just me. I agree with TB in this. Don't buy an early access game because it might become good later (early access), and don't spend money on just promises.

In general, do you think people or companies haven't asked for donations in similar or better circumstances? Take the American Red Cross alone for example which has a balance of billions of dollars, but are still asking for donations. I'd say just the financial situation alone should not exclude them from the liberty to ask for donations. I personally prefer such donations over the donations for example youtubers are receiving for filling the channels with their noise. Let people pay and ask if they feel like it.

You can't really compare a game dev to Red Cross imo. Game devs have a very shoddy track record over all with their promises and means of getting money. Promises not kept, worse quality than advertised, some devs just plain running away with the cash, etc. Not saying naughty dog will do this. But the past has shown us that a game dev asking for 20 dollars to reach a 'donation goal' for extra content, while they're clearly not short on profits, is shady at best.

 

[FC Groningen]

It's not something you mentioned so far in your posts. Since I'm not from the USA myself, I can't say how they are financed there, but over here, the majority of their support comes from the central government or different companies instead of donations of individual citizens. I'm just as glad as you the red cross is receiving donations and support, but my point was that just the financial situation alone should not exclude them from asking for donations. Considering both of us aren't paying the developers of Payday 2, I wonder how relevant it is to discuss it in the first place.

edit: By legal terms, donations aren't considered a "donation" anymore if you expect a product in return. You're right regarding most developer studio's; people should just realise what they are paying for, which is basically nothing.

 

[Prince of Ales]

If I read this right:

https://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=sv&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avanza.se%2Faktier%2Fresultat-balans.html%2F5528%2Fstarbreeze

Their profits far exceed their listed debts.

Yeah that's right. 1.04 debt from 159.29 capital employed (158.25 + 1.04) gives 0.65% gearing. Gearing is an indicator associated with risk for investors (lower is better), and with a ratio so low they wouldn't have any trouble at all seeking future finance.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Ok. Apparently im to stupid. What's the problem again?

Overkill does shady stuff and ask for money. And you want to be able to prevent them from that? Instead of just not paying?
But somehow not paying them isn't enough? What am i missing?

 

[Mutant1988]

Ok. Apparently im to stupid. What's the problem again?

Overkill does shady stuff and ask for money. And you want to be able to prevent them from that? Instead of just not paying?
But somehow not paying them isn't enough? What am i missing?

I want other people to know what they are doing when they introduce pre-order, limited time offers (As in, cannot be obtained past a certain date) and crowd sourcing strategies such as stretch goals with obscene requirements and products with minimal content and inflated prices to further the aforementioned stretch goals, well into the life span of their game which they already make millions from and reconsider any thoughts they might have had, however remote, of giving them their money.

Their game which total cost with all DLC lies around 74 dollars or so - They are now asking 25 dollar more for very, very little and many, many vague promises.

Apparently that is an objectionable thing to post.

Presuming to tell people what is or isn't worth their money is apparently a big no no on the internet.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/video-games/reviews

 

[Drop_D-Bombshell]

Ok. Apparently im to stupid. What's the problem again?

Overkill does shady stuff and ask for money. And you want to be able to prevent them from that? Instead of just not paying?
But somehow not paying them isn't enough? What am i missing?

Basically it's a season pass that occurs after the game was released. You pay $20 for four pieces of DLC yet to be released, so far only the masks are announced, there's going to be more content available.

I'm not sure what the problem is. the 'might' thing could hold ground if Payday 2 was still in development, but Overkill have a pretty decent record when it comes to stretch goals and DLC. They did one last year with group likes where every 50k bench mark got the community free stuff. Only thing that could hold weight against it is that some items haven't been released but considering this includes dynamic day-and-night modes for certain missions and a new special enemy AI, those things take time.

As for the masks themselves, well they're masks. Pretty much cosmetic items that don't change your gaming experience or skills. You customise it and stick it on whenever things go tits up. Plus there's still a month to go, i'm sure they'll give more information down the road as the deadline draws near.

As for the stretch goal they're currently having, whenever you buy a DLC 'hype fuel gallons' are added to a meter, the more fuel the more free content everyone gets. One could argue that they're holding off content unless a certain aount of money is spent however i think they'll add all the content regardless but with some just add a cost.


http://www.overkillsoftware.com/thehypetrain/

Here's the link to the page for some information. Honestly, I don't think there's much of a problem, Mutant has an opinion and is letting it be known.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

I want other people to know what they are doing when they introduce pre-order, limited time offers (As in, cannot be obtained past a certain date) and crowd sourcing strategies such as stretch goals with obscene requirements and products with minimal content and inflated prices to further the aforementioned stretch goals, well into the life span of their game which they already make millions from and reconsider any thoughts they might have had, however remote, of giving them their money.

Their game which total cost with all DLC lies around 74 dollars or so - They are now asking 25 dollar more for very, very little and many, many vague promises.

Apparently that is an objectionable thing to post.

Presuming to tell people what is or isn't worth their money is apparently a big no no on the internet.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/video-games/reviews

Well, first of all: Yes, it is nono. You can say it's not worth the money for you, but others may decide otherwise and there's nothing you can do.
Same with critics. They can give their opinion, but that's it. I can still like and watch a movie they think sucks, and i've all rights to it.

I play PD2 myself, i know their pricings etc. You know what i do? I don't pay. And that's it. What's the fuss now? Becuase people already wrote that and you didnt agree, that's why im confused.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Basically it's a season pass that occurs after the game was released. You pay $20 for four pieces of DLC yet to be released, so far only the masks are announced, there's going to be more content available.

I'm not sure what the problem is. the 'might' thing could hold ground if Payday 2 was still in development, but Overkill have a pretty decent record when it comes to stretch goals and DLC. They did one last year with group likes where every 50k bench mark got the community free stuff. Only thing that could hold weight against it is that some items haven't been released but considering this includes dynamic day-and-night modes for certain missions and a new special enemy AI, those things take time.

As for the masks themselves, well they're masks. Pretty much cosmetic items that don't change your gaming experience or skills. You customise it and stick it on whenever things go tits up. Plus there's still a month to go, i'm sure they'll give more information down the road as the deadline draws near.

As for the stretch goal they're currently having, whenever you buy a DLC 'hype fuel gallons' are added to a meter, the more fuel the more free content everyone gets. One could argue that they're holding off content unless a certain aount of money is spent however i think they'll add all the content regardless but with some just add a cost.


http://www.overkillsoftware.com/thehypetrain/

Here's the link to the page for some information. Honestly, I don't think there's much of a problem, Mutant has an opinion and is letting it be known.

Yes i know that. I play PD2 myself. But if the deals shit, dont buy it. Why is there such a fuss about it? Should i make post everytime a shop in my city has something to offer i think is overpriced?
Post 2 or 3 already said it: If its worth your money buy it, if it isn't don't.

 

[Drop_D-Bombshell]

snip

Yes i know that. I play PD2 myself. But if the deals shit, dont buy it. Why is there such a fuss about it? Should i make post everytime a shop in my city has something to offer i think is overpriced?
Post 2 or 3 already said it: If its worth your money buy it, if it isn't don't.

1: No idea, I think he just doesn't like the price.
2: No.
3: Text posts don't display emotion. Hard to tell if your serious or sarcastic, plus i already bought an overkill pack. Plus i agree with them.

 

[Mutant1988]

I play PD2 myself, i know their pricings etc. You know what i do? I don't pay. And that's it. What's the fuss now? Becuase people already wrote that and you didnt agree, that's why im confused.

I disagreed with the notion that I was in the wrong to say my piece and with them generally acting in a rude and condescending manner.

I know that actual tangible results are produced by putting your money where your mouth is. What I'm doing is telling you why you should do the same.

If you already share my opinion, then great.
If you don't care, also great (But why did you open this topic I wonder?).
If you disagree and behave as if my opinion has no merit to exist, without offering any further explanation, then well -- I don't really see much reason to care what you think.

And no, again, I already know not to give them my money.

But thanks to those guys for reminding me to do what I already am doing. It's really super helpful.

I compare these practises to;

The stretch Goals to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
If enough people spend money then everyone might profit.

The unknown other parts of the $20 DLC to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke
Because you're basically paying for a promise, for this DLC and in general. Pre-orders in general IS this.

The pricing of the $20, considering the limited time only aspect of it to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury
The only way they can get away with charging such an absurd premium is because it's "exclusive".

The fact that the $20 omits the content of the similarly named $5 DLC this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising
Or more specifically, intentionally deceptive in their naming.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Looking at the stretch goals on their website, this pretty clearly looks like 'We plan on releasing most of this stuff anyway, but if enough people 'donate', then we'll just offer it as another free update as opposed to making it paid DLC'. Which, y'know, I don't have a problem with. They've given enough free content updates that I'm willing to shell out for Seabreeze.

 

[laggyteabag]

I used to play a lot of PAYDAY 2, and I kept up a lot with the DLC heists and weapons, but it just kind of got to a point where it seemed like every other week they would release a new pack with new stuff that you would never use, and I just got bored of the oversaturation of the game. Sure, they release some free stuff every now and again, and all of the heists are free to join (not to host), but this is the perfect example of too much DLC. I just can't be bothered with the game anymore.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

And only if enough people donate will they give us additional content. As opposed to, you know, just charging reasonably for the content they do release.

It's not that. It's another Crimefest: if the community meets this goal within a certain time period, and we release this content for free. If they don't, then we release it for a price, like originally intended. At best, we get content for free. At worst, we get exactly what Overkill intended to charge us for. It's no doubt most of the content is near complete and ready to be shipped out within a month after the event ends.

Except the Crimefest goal was an easy process of joining the game's usergroup, which naturally happened anyway as people bought the game on sale and subscribed to the group for the free content. Now they're banking (literally) on people buying their DLC for them to release more free DLC. As a lot of people will say, Crimefest was handled better and much easier to publicize to people. Crimefest at least had the incentive of Payday: The Heist being free for everyone on Steam, so long as you open the Community tab and find the biggest Steam usergroup. Now it's asking you to drop money on a game most people probably haven't even downloaded, if they do own it.

I don't like it near as much as Crimefest, because I can't realistically see us meeting half the goals in time for the deadline. Most people who do drop money on the DLCs are already active Payday 2 players who already know about The Hype Train. But I'm really happy The Hype Train is here: at the very least, Overkill has released a road map of updates to come. Another weapon pack, at least three more heists, another character, and another new enemy.

By the way, the new SWAT Turret Enemy isn't the enemy Overkill promised from Crimefest, right? Because we already earned that enemy, it seems stupid to put it behind two seperate goals. Simon Viklund said the Crimefest enemy has a lot of audio cues and won't be realistically ready for release until summer.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

So... I suppose, you could, umm... not give them your money?

Since, y'know, it's voluntary. You don't "need" to fork out for anything.

EUREKA! HOLY SHIT, I'VE SOLVED THE PROBLEM!

My god, I'm a fucking genius.

yes sure they said the same thing about DLC

until they started pumping out DLC for everything without really adding much to the game, and then they started taking content away from the game to sell it as DLC on day one, or locking content already on the freakin' disk and selling it as DLC, and they they started selling pre-order for DLC

so, sorry Mr "a fucking genius", your solution has not only been proposed before, it failed miserably back then

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

People cry about how horrible the big debs of triple A games are, we'll if you want games free from the clutches of evil publishers then their money has to come from somewhere else. So donations. And if you don't want to give you don't have to.

 

[Vivi22]

If I don't, ALL players get less content and I miss out on every getting that content which has been put behind a 20$ paywall.

That is the problem. I don't mind paying a reasonable sum for a quality product. This is not a quality product. This is forcing a purchase or be penalized for it by never being able to access it and not unlocking future content.

You aren't being penalized for not paying by having them keep cosmetic items behind a $20 paywall and them refusing to release further content. Will your experience with the current game actually change if you don't pay the money? No, it won't. Not one bit. You lose nothing by not giving them your money.

But if they want to fuck customers around with exploitative business models, they should absolutely lose customers. And I say this as someone who's a big fan of Payday 2.

Simply put, get over it. If you don't think this stuff is worth paying for then don't pay for it and move on with your life. They'll either get the message and fuck off with the silly bullshit or they'll lose customers and you know not to waste your money on their games anymore, but to act like you're actually losing something if you refuse to pay is completely absurd.

 

[Zhukov]

So... I suppose, you could, umm... not give them your money?

Since, y'know, it's voluntary. You don't "need" to fork out for anything.

EUREKA! HOLY SHIT, I'VE SOLVED THE PROBLEM!

My god, I'm a fucking genius.

yes sure they said the same thing about DLC

until they started pumping out DLC for everything without really adding much to the game, and then they started taking content away from the game to sell it as DLC on day one, or locking content already on the freakin' disk and selling it as DLC, and they they started selling pre-order for DLC

so, sorry Mr "a fucking genius", your solution has not only been proposed before, it failed miserably back then

And do you know why it "failed"?

Because people buy DLC.

You can complain until the end of time, but the fact of the matter is that if enough people are buying DLC and whatnot, then clearly the practice is not enough to discourage customers. If people are demonstrably willing to pay the price, then the price is clearly not too high.

 

[Mutant1988]

If I don't, ALL players get less content and I miss out on every getting that content which has been put behind a 20$ paywall.

That is the problem. I don't mind paying a reasonable sum for a quality product. This is not a quality product. This is forcing a purchase or be penalized for it by never being able to access it and not unlocking future content.

You aren't being penalized for not paying by having them keep cosmetic items behind a $20 paywall and them refusing to release further content. Will your experience with the current game actually change if you don't pay the money? No, it won't. Not one bit. You lose nothing by not giving them your money.

But if they want to fuck customers around with exploitative business models, they should absolutely lose customers. And I say this as someone who's a big fan of Payday 2.

Simply put, get over it. If you don't think this stuff is worth paying for then don't pay for it and move on with your life. They'll either get the message and fuck off with the silly bullshit or they'll lose customers and you know not to waste your money on their games anymore, but to act like you're actually losing something if you refuse to pay is completely absurd.

They are explicitly telling us that if they do not get a certain amount of money collectively from us customers before a certain date we will not get or they will charge additionally for the content within the stretch goals.

Content which they could just as well had released in due time with a reasonable cost, without time pressure on customers to purchase any product within any specific time.

We are in fact losing "something" by not giving them this money and the exact nature of that is something they intentionally make vague. This is because of these stretch goals, which something which a fully funded and actively content producing company should not need.

Furthermore, this cosmetic content is both overpriced and time limited. The combination of which I find objectionable, since the whole purpose of it's existence appears to be to force customers to make a purchasing decision before time runs out and that it's price is solely inflate to exploit it's limited nature.

It's not paying for a product, it's paying for the very idea of exclusivity, to be one of the few that throws their money at the developer and be able to show everyone else that we did.

But that's not all, there's something else in it that they have not detailed, so we are unable to make an informed decision as they withhold information from us.

All this seem to serve a single purpose - To have us customers pay a premium solely to satiate the developers greed and excess.

I have not and will not pay for this and I aim only to inform others of what they are doing so they too can make an informed decision and not support this company with their money.

 

[Trunkage]

Do you think it is reasonable for a company that makes that much to ask for "donations"?

According to that site they made losses for 3 straight years but still managed to stay in business. There's a good chance they're still paying off debts as a result. I don't know enough about accounting to really talk about the rest of the figures, although I can see their share price is down again.

But the bottom line, which you can keep rephrasing as often as you like, is that they can ask for whatever they want - you don't have to give them a penny. There's a website dedicated to that kind of thing, you might have heard of it [http://www.kickstarter.com/].

I'm just going to start ignoring you repeating that tired old cliché. I don't pay for things I don't consider worthy my money.

You can stop acting as if I do something opposite of my intention already.

They put a kickstarter into a game for additional content in a product already released and they put a time limit on us purchasing an overpriced pre-order to work up funds towards stretch goals that may or may not be reached.

This the company, that made a profit in the millions, reasons qualifies as donations.

And no, the company does not still have debts because if it did they would not be able to repost profits. What part of "after all expenses" is difficult to understand?

I think its getting to a stage where you need to have the talk.

I don't know whether you know this but people are not you. They don't have the same name, idea or personality. Accept that some (and in this case most) people are going to disagree with you. Being a jerk is only making you angry.

I played payday for about 3wks before going infamous after which it became boring. There is a chronic shortage of levels for a grinding game. If they lock out content, they will lose all my future business, but I'm not going to whinge about it.