Pachter Says Team Bondi "Wasn't Entitled to Overtime Pay"

[Herbsk]

This is the truth for any salaried employee - people that work via hourly rates get overtime - salaried employees do not.

And how many developers do you think are hourly employees if they are not contractors? Its a simple fact that most developers today are salaried employees and oftem work extremely long hours - especially in the gaming industry. What this analyst has said is not wrong, but the way in which he delivers it is pretty harsh.

 

[-Axle-]

This is the truth for any salaried employee - people that work via hourly rates get overtime - salaried employees do not.

And how many developers do you think are hourly employees if they are not contractors? Its a simple fact that most developers today are salaried employees and oftem work extremely long hours - especially in the gaming industry. What this analyst has said is not wrong, but the way in which he delivers it is pretty harsh.

Its not like the majority of the economy doesn't have salary jobs. I'm pretty sure most of us above 25 have salary jobs. The issue is the amount of work that needs to be done.

Just because you pay someone a salary, it does not justify the expectation of overtime. The idea of salary is supposed to be to "get the job done" and not "work this long doing x", that doesn't mean you get to give one person the job of three.

I could pay one person a salary and ask them to build me a house, that doesn't grant me the expectation that they should be able to do it while working 80+ hours a week.

 

[Brian Schuster]

I think there's a bigger point being missed here. I don't think Team Bondi was particularly pissed about the overtime... that's common. I think they were pissed that they had to work overtime for Brendan McNamara. The good folks over at Valve work hundred hour weeks , too, but you don't hear any complaints about Gabe Newell.

 

[DTWolfwood]

sux being an Exempted Employee doesn't it? Not entitled to overtime at all!

 

[Electric Alpaca]

100% agree.

Whilst there aren't 'up front' payments, there's a bonus pool that gets dipped into when targets are hit. People up in arms are forgetting this part.

Plus, I'd wager that the same individuals crying unfair would burst into tears when the deficit of wages was recouped by stripping elements of the game down - because that's the trade off.

Basically; unpaid overtime is not uncommon in the real world - if you have some form of meaningful profession and actually take pride in articles with your name on.

 

[Herbsk]

This is the truth for any salaried employee - people that work via hourly rates get overtime - salaried employees do not.

And how many developers do you think are hourly employees if they are not contractors? Its a simple fact that most developers today are salaried employees and oftem work extremely long hours - especially in the gaming industry. What this analyst has said is not wrong, but the way in which he delivers it is pretty harsh.

Its not like the majority of the economy doesn't have salary jobs. I'm pretty sure most of us above 25 have salary jobs. The issue is the amount of work that needs to be done.

Just because you pay someone a salary, it does not justify the expectation of overtime. The idea of salary is supposed to be to "get the job done" and not "work this long doing x", that doesn't mean you get to give one person the job of three.

I could pay one person a salary and ask them to build me a house, that doesn't grant me the expectation that they should be able to do it while working 80+ hours a week.

I would argue that this is exactly the expectation that is given for this circumstance - especially within the IT industry. I work for an IT company (I'm not a developer) and all developers who work for my company end up working long hours as a default. They don't work 80 hour weeks (I think) but they do work at least 50 to 60 hour weeks. Companies do this because it is cheaper for them to pay a higher initial salary then to provide a lower base salary plus overtime pay. Also, I expect that many companies in the IT industry are not a part of unions. Especially for game companies, but also for many IT companies in general, the expectation is that you will be paid a good salary for your area, but that you also will be required a lot of hours - definately more than a person in another industry would have.

Combine that with the bonuses that developers get when a game does well, and you have even higher expectations of the people who work for you. This also considers that all games are under some kind of deadline, and shareholders and consumers often push that deadline to be sooner rather than later. I'm not saying all this is right necessarily, but this is reality and anyone in the IT industry should be aware of how things work before they get into it.

As the article said, if they aren't willing to work these hours, they can find a new job - that's basically any large game companies view of the situation, especially in the current down economy that we are experiencing.

 

[senordesol]

I'm a salaried employee in the games industry. I've seen days where it was declared 'no one leaves until this is finished.' We all know better than to complain, we all know that there will be no comp time or pay.

HOWEVER: There is a difference between enduring those semi-rare instances, and being worked to death as a cost saving measure. I've got a family, I like seeing them on occasion. I like doing things with them on occasion. My job allows me to keep them fed, clothed, housed, and educated; but that alone is not enough.

I work to live, I don't live to work. If I were to be expected to work 110 hour weeks for months on end with no guaranteed compensation; I would quit in a second.

We should not sell human dignity so cheaply.

 

[Sabazios]

Doesn't this amount of time, including bad conditions, make people less efficient and good at what is essentially a creative endeavour? Look at Japan, Square Enix is a terrible place to work, and look what's coming out of there. You can't treat people like resources that can be mined, you have to treat them as people.

 

[-Axle-]

I would argue that this is exactly the expectation that is given for this circumstance - especially within the IT industry. I work for an IT company (I'm not a developer) and all developers who work for my company end up working long hours as a default. They don't work 80 hour weeks (I think) but they do work at least 50 to 60 hour weeks. Companies do this because it is cheaper for them to pay a higher initial salary then to provide a lower base salary plus overtime pay. Also, I expect that many companies in the IT industry are not a part of unions. Especially for game companies, but also for many IT companies in general, the expectation is that you will be paid a good salary for your area, but that you also will be required a lot of hours - definately more than a person in another industry would have.

Combine that with the bonuses that developers get when a game does well, and you have even higher expectations of the people who work for you. This also considers that all games are under some kind of deadline, and shareholders and consumers often push that deadline to be sooner rather than later. I'm not saying all this is right necessarily, but this is reality and anyone in the IT industry should be aware of how things work before they get into it.

As the article said, if they aren't willing to work these hours, they can find a new job - that's basically any large game companies view of the situation, especially in the current down economy that we are experiencing.

I don't think anyone is doubting that it happens, what's at issue here is whether it SHOULD happen.

The problem with the model right now is that it does indeed shift the cost burden of labour directly on to the workforce. This allows a company to forgo paying for the ACTUAL time required to develop a game, and only pay after the game is successful (ie in Bonuses). Its extremely dangerous because it essentially allows the investor to put up only a partial amount of the money required for the venture and only pay the rest out IF and only if it is successful. Do you see the problem here?

Take the human factor out, this is like saying I'm going to go out and purchase 1000 shares of a company, but only pay for 400. The remaining 600 is payed for by the people working for me. I'll pay them back for the remaining 600 if and only if the price of those shares go up (in other words, the venture is successful). The people working for me should never have to carry any of the financial burden considering I'm the only one making the decisions. They should get paid for the work I ask them to do, not for the risks I decide to take.

 

[-Axle-]

Has anyone of you knee-jerkers ever stopped to think that he may have a point? It's not just game developers; lawyers, doctors, scientists, engineers, traders, bankers etc, especially those working for big, successful companies, put in bloody arseloads of unpaid overtime, and nobody cries for them. Why do they do that? To get promoted, to get fat bonuses, and to be millionaires by the time they're 35. If you want to make $200k a year at a young age, you'd better be burning the midnight oil.
...

Last time I checked, I don't want a surgeon that works 80+ hour weeks to perform surgery.

I think you're confusing flexibility and workload with work hours. Doctors, Lawyers, Bankers, etc. are all sometimes expected to work odd hours or long shifts, this doesn't mean they do so indefinitely or for months on at a time. That and they are typically much more in charge of their own destiny than the average programmer, artist, tester, etc. Notice how a doctor / lawyer / trader / etc. can all have more than one client? Their workload is proportional to what they take on. A developer (other than the leaders) doesn't have the ability to take on multiple jobs from different sources nor make any of the critical decisions that affect what risks they take.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

For once I agree with him. If the developers don't like it they should have quit. And get a job in an industry that doesn't rely on squeezing the life force out of enthusiastic fresh-outs.

 

[puffenstuff]

Pachter trolls gamers and press. Film at 11.

Can we please stop posting stuff this guy says as news?

 

[Callate]

"Don't they know they should be doing it for love?..."

Salary positions are often ripe for abuse. Saying that such abuse is industry-typical and ought to be anticipated isn't addressing the issue.

Failing to actually address the issue makes you a poor excuse for an "analyst".

 

[feather240]

Bonuses are a scam, always.

Sure, some people manage to get them, but they are a calculated business decision to ensure they don't have to pay people a fair wage for a fair days work.

"We pay you extra for selling more..... but if someone else screws up, we don't advertise it properly, it just doesn't sell because of other games released.. whatever.. you don't get squat"

Hourly pay, set hours, overtime.. that is the ONLY acceptable method of working.

The only people I've found who defend other practices are the people who have been lucky, or who are for some reason happy to give up ridiculous amounts of time without getting compensated.

Edit : Note, I'm not saying Salary is unacceptable, but it should ALWAYS be Salary based upon the actual hours worked not the ideal hours worked. If the company is giving its staff such huge workloads that they consistently work longer than the hours their pay is based upon, they need to start paying more.

For a small indie team bonuses would make sense though, wouldn't they?

 

[kael013]

However now we're talking about an extremely result-oriented industry, were shit needs to made in a certain time-period. If that shit doesn't get made on time, a lot of people loses a shitload of money they've fueled into projects. It's called crunch-work for a reason, and if you're not cool with that get another fucking job with a clear 9-5 schedule. Or you know, start some indie-studio or whatever, and take those "I should be payed for my overtime"-standards there. Let's see how fucking far you'll get.

Oh, I don't know... Valve has been pretty fucking successful and their business model is "oh, btw we're working on this new game. It'll come out...sometime". This allows them to negate crunchtime and the problems that'll be overlooked during that time by making them rule the deadline and not have the deadline rule them.

OT: Let's assume that your contract says you get paid for working 40 hours a week and you work Mon-Fri for 110 hours a week during crunch-time (that's 22 hours a day). This means that according to the contract, you stop getting paid 2 hours before you leave on Tuesday. That shit shouldn't fly, period.

EDIT: Also, 110 hours working, 1 hour for dinner and hygiene, 56 hours for sleep = 167 hours. A week has 168 hours, so I hope you don't live more than 30 minutes away, otherwise your gonna lose sleep. And as we all know, sleepy people are less effective workers (so, YAY! buggy games!).

 

[Fiskmasen]

Oh, I don't know... Valve has been pretty fucking successful and their business model is "oh, btw we're working on this new game. It'll come out...sometime". This allows them to negate crunchtime and the problems that'll be overlooked during that time by making them rule the deadline and not have the deadline rule them.

Take some time to consider that statement before I continue.

Done? Alright, here we go: VALVe are SELF-PUBLISHED. You know what that means, I hope? It means that all the money put into their projects is coming from their own company. That means the only people looking for results are the company itself, and not a third party.
Your point is absolutely fucking useless in this context.

 

[Arehexes]

This is the life as a game developer. Deal with it, or change profession, simple as that.

I

Words, words, words

I refuse to read your post since you won't read the one your quoting

Those companies with "No publishers" as you put it, well they are their own publisher and they need to push out the game. Any project that isn't done right with time management will have crunch time, but having to work for 8 months in crunch time mode MAKES NO SENSE.

Answer me this: Would you be willing to work 80+ hours (Remember the general number of hours is 40, so pretty much two weeks in one week) to finish a project or try to push the release date back.

I don't want to hear anything but your answer if you respond to this.

 

[Arehexes]

Oh, I don't know... Valve has been pretty fucking successful and their business model is "oh, btw we're working on this new game. It'll come out...sometime". This allows them to negate crunchtime and the problems that'll be overlooked during that time by making them rule the deadline and not have the deadline rule them.

Take some time to consider that statement before I continue.

Done? Alright, here we go: VALVe are SELF-PUBLISHED. You know what that means, I hope? It means that all the money put into their projects is coming from their own company. That means the only people looking for results are the company itself, and not a third party.
Your point is absolutely fucking useless in this context.

Dude one you don't need to sweat to make a point, and publishers need to be more flexible. People who are worn out and tired from working so many hours for so long will be less effective. Would you want a doctor who did 20 operations non stop in one day and didn't take a break and your number 21 in his list of people to cut up?

Self Published devs can panic and go OK WE GOTTA FINISH THIS GAME NOW UBER CRUNCH TIIIMMEEE, just like publishers for third party companies. Self published or not it does mean people need 6 MONTHS of 80+ a week work hours. And with programming you have to have a sharp mind, and if your tired and worn out you will make stupid mistakes to screw up a game. I mean hell people are pissed when a game is released with bugs. If you push back publishing dates to finish a product odds are you get a better product

 

[walrusaurus]

Isn't he one of those guys that gametrailers pays to troll people for hits? Seriously i can't believe that site still runs, i haven't been there in at least 3 or 4 years.