Paul Dini: Superhero cartoon execs don't want largely female audiences

WindKnight

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Karthak said:
Windknight said:
Considering Nickleodeon had a really big hit with both genders with Avatar TLA, and yet seem to have been doing a lot of dicking around with the sequel to keep the boy audience, it may be these guys just don't learn.
Are they still meddling with Korra? I thought they just complained about the protagonist being a girl for a while.
They were very on-and off about how many seasons the show would get, to the point that pretty much the entirety of season one was written under the assumption it was to be the only season, and some are blaming the sloppy character writing in the first half of season two on a desire for more aggressive, combative characters because that's what boys like (the anime I mentioned in my original post was touted as the characters rewritten from the Japanese to be 'stronger', which ultimately meant they generally went from sweet, naive or warm, to bratty, aggressive and insulting... moments where a character showed concern for another were generally rewritten to be them being annoyed with or insulting to them).
 

Something Amyss

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Dragonbums said:
I wonder how the League of Legends fans will feel knowing that their awesome show was cancelled because execs still haven't grown out of their cootie phase.
But...But boys will never watch something girls enjoy!

*sweeps MLP under the rug*

Never!

Boys and girls can't enjoy the same thing, so it will drive of the boys buying our toys!

Kolby Jack said:
Misogyny is a bit too strong of a word for this. It's marketing, pure and simple. Sexist? Yes, of course. Hatred? Nah. It's just business models and trends and shares to those guys. Hatred is personal.
*cough*
Misogyny /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/ is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.
Basic Wikipedia. The word is apt.

kurupt87 said:
Targeting a product at a demographic does not a misogynist make.
Complaining about another demographic enjoying a show does.

We're not even talking huge amounts of time devoted to the female characters, evidently. And still....

Johnny Novgorod said:
They could take a hint from My Little Pony. If dudes buy toy ponies made for girls, what's stopping girls from buying boy's stuff?
In fact, since the default position tends to be "make stuff for boys; the girls can tag along if they want," you'd almost think they'd push this as a positive.
 

Mangod

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Nickolai77 said:
I think it's a bit of an assumption to make that A) Developing a greater focus on female characters would cause the male audience to lose interest


The Legend of Korra, the sequel to Avatar: The Last Airbender, premiered this weekend on Nickelodeon. We know you probably have a few strong opinions on it (feel free to share them in our comment section) but today we?re here to clue you into something you may find shocking -The Legend of Korra, featuring a female lead, appeals to boys! In fact, they think Korra is ?awesome.?

Creators of the series, Bryan Konietzko and Michael DiMartino, recently spoke with NPR about the premiere and how they approached the new series and spoke about the live-action film that flopped.

NPR writes, ?On the big screen ? an adaptation DiMartino and Konietzko had no control over ? the show?s hand-painted look was coarsened with cheesy CGI effects and live actors. Shyamalan?s film cost $150 million ? and flopped epically. Fans complained that the casting added weird racial implications, and they lamented the ham-fisted script.?

?It?s very nice to be back in the driver?s seat,? said Konietzko.

?Konietzko says The Legend of Korra takes audiences back into the Last Airbender?s shadowy snowscapes and pastoral tribal villages. But this show ? meant for older kids ? also includes a steampunk metropolis with coughing, old-fashioned cars and floating iron blimps,? writes NPR. ?Some episodes find Korra fighting in alleys and at night, and DiMartino calls the show moodier and more noir than its predecessor.?

?She?s muscular, and we like that,? said Konietzko. ?It?s definitely better than being a waif about to pass out. I know, I look like a waif ? who am I to judge??

But probably the most interesting bit of information to come out of the interview was a little background information on getting Nickelodeon to approve the show.

?Some Nickelodeon executives were worried, says Konietzko, about backing an animated action show with a female lead character. Conventional TV wisdom has it that girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won?t watch shows about girls,? they write. ?During test screenings, though, boys said they didn?t care that Korra was a girl. They just said she was awesome.?

- Jill Pantozzi, April 15th, 2012
 

Karthak

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Windknight said:
Karthak said:
Windknight said:
Considering Nickleodeon had a really big hit with both genders with Avatar TLA, and yet seem to have been doing a lot of dicking around with the sequel to keep the boy audience, it may be these guys just don't learn.
Are they still meddling with Korra? I thought they just complained about the protagonist being a girl for a while.
They were very on-and off about how many seasons the show would get, to the point that pretty much the entirety of season one was written under the assumption it was to be the only season, and some are blaming the sloppy character writing in the first half of season two on a desire for more aggressive, combative characters because that's what boys like (the anime I mentioned in my original post was touted as the characters rewritten from the Japanese to be 'stronger', which ultimately meant they generally went from sweet, naive or warm, to bratty, aggressive and insulting... moments where a character showed concern for another were generally rewritten to be them being annoyed with or insulting to them).
Hmm. More aggressive, combative characters, you say? Just yesterday I read a really interesting post that actually tackled this (achtung, long quote incoming!:

Culturally disoriented said:
I think, moreover, that there?s something more than your average ?bitches be crazy? trope going on in The Legend of Korra. I think the show is having a hard time coping with their female protagonist.

You would not thing a strong female protagonist would be a problem for the writers of Korra, given that the previoous series, Avatar, is full of strong, interesting women: Katara, the waterbending master, Toph, one of the greatest earthbenders to ever live, Azula, who? I mean, how do you even talk about the powerhouse that is Azula? And Mai, Tai-Lee and Suki, three non-benders who could stand toe-to-toe with any bender and come out on top.

But in Avatar, unlike in Korra, there was always one male character who was theoretically more powerful than any given woman: Aang, by virtue of being the Avatar. In Legend of Korra, however, the protagonist is female. Aang is dead and Korra is the new Avatar ? the most powerful person in the entire show. Once she?s fully trained, nothing will be able to stand against her. There is no male character more powerful than Korra.

People have? problems with that kind of female power. A whole lot of writers just have no idea how to deal with it, especially in the context of western patriarchy and western-prescribed gender roles (most of the characters of Avatar are POC, and the areas they live in correspond to asian and first nations locations, but the writers of the show are mainly from north america). There aren?t a whole lot of creators with the kind of talent and chutzpah to deal with a world where women and men are on equal footing ? and where a woman is the ?savior? of the world.

Which is where you get weird stuff like the Korra abuse narrative. The writers are unable to separate the world of Korra from western ideas about gender and patriarchal structures. More specifically, they?re unable to conceive of a world where the strength of women doesn?t come at the expense of the strength of men. They?ve moved beyond the patriarchy by flipping it.

Thus, in Korra, gender equality doesn?t mean that relationships will become healthier and more equitable. No ? a gain in power by women must mean a loss in power by men, since we?re still stuck in gender hierarchies. Thus, if women are the ?strong? ones ? if women are captains of industry (Asami), police chiefs (Lin Bei Fong), Avatars (Korra) and incredibly powerful waterbenders (Eska) ? then the men must be the ?weak? ones. Thus, we get all the heterosexual relationships where the women are abusive and the men are passive.

Which, I should note, tells you a whole lot about how the writers conceive traditional male-female relationships. And a whole lot about how the writers conceive ?strength.? They seem unable to conceive of a woman with stereotypically male attributes ? like Korra, who is very physically strong, who acts first and think later, who is competitive and impulsive ? without also making her borderline abusive. I don?t know if it?s because the writer?s vision of masculinity is so entwined with strength-as-abuse, or if it?s because they can?t help but see a character like Korra as an aberration, and thus infuse her with ?bad? qualities. Whatever it is, it?s disturbing.
https://culturallydisoriented.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/abusive-relationships-and-victim-blaming-in-the-legend-of-korra/
 

DementedSheep

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Mangod said:
?Some Nickelodeon executives were worried, says Konietzko, about backing an animated action show with a female lead character. Conventional TV wisdom has it that girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won?t watch shows about girls,? they write. ?During test screenings, though, boys said they didn?t care that Korra was a girl. They just said she was awesome.?

- Jill Pantozzi, April 15th, 2012
Yeah, heard that before from a marketing teacher. If you want to market to "everyone" you market to white and male because other groups will buy stuff marketed to white guys but white guys won't buy stuff marketed to other groups especially not girls because men don't want to be associated with woman. I don't even know if that's true anymore, especially among little kids but either way it seem to be one of the reasons every other group gets the shaft in western media. Frankly "safe bets" and "it's not personal" doesn't excuse this shit anymore.
 

Kolby Jack

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Kolby Jack said:
Misogyny is a bit too strong of a word for this. It's marketing, pure and simple. Sexist? Yes, of course. Hatred? Nah. It's just business models and trends and shares to those guys. Hatred is personal.
*cough*
Misogyny /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/ is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.
Basic Wikipedia. The word is apt.
Ok, well, you seem to be trying to argue a rather pointless argument here. We can go to the dictionary all we want to, but when it comes down to it, if you accuse someone of being a misogynist, that's whole lot more damning than merely saying what they are doing is sexist. I mean, if someone's talking too much I can say "quiet down" or I can say "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" Technically they mean the same thing, but I'd be kind of a dick for choosing the second one, yea? Language is magical, ain't it?
 

Jusey1

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CN hey? Not surprise honestly... All they is doing now-a-days is digging their own grave.

I don't think they even have one good show anymore that is flat-out actually fully good in all aspects... They use to but not anymore for sures.
 

Nickolai77

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Mangod said:
Well, thanks for showing that it's probably a false belief that boys lose interest if female characters take the lead in a childrens tv show!
 

broca

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I really don't understand the sentiment. Okay, i can understand it based on my knowledge that humans in general are not rational at all, doesn't make it less sad or stupid. Just look at some of the great scifi tv shows (e.g. Fringe, Battlestar Galactica, Orphan Black, Person of Interest) of the last years and you see that there is no problem with integrating interesting female chars into genre fiction.
 

Something Amyss

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Kolby Jack said:
Ok, well, you seem to be trying to argue a rather pointless argument here. We can go to the dictionary all we want to, but when it comes down to it, if you accuse someone of being a misogynist, that's whole lot more damning than merely saying what they are doing is sexist. I mean, if someone's talking too much I can say "quiet down" or I can say "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" Technically they mean the same thing, but I'd be kind of a dick for choosing the second one, yea? Language is magical, ain't it?
Pretending the word is some seriously harsh term is ridiculous. The same people offended by it are generally offended by "sexist." "softening" the language doesn't change the outcome. In fact, it's basically turned every available word into a buzzword for people to get further offended by.
 

VanQ

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They may not be the most tolerant sounding bunch on the vine, but if they want to target a specific demographic then it's their money and their choice. They're the ones taking a risk by investing in the cartoons in the first place and if their business venture is not panning out according to their plan then it is entirely their right to reconsider and even pull the plug before too much money goes down the drain.

We don't have all the details here. It just sounds like a bunch of flamebaiting to me. It's sad that they feel they can't or won't roll with their new audience even if it's unintended, but there may be some underlying business aspect that makes it unreasonable or not worth the risk involved.

Khrowley said:
Girls don't buy the toys? BULL&*%@! My older sister has over 100 Transformers toys in her room. I'm also willing to bet they'd be joined by zombie merch once she has the expendable cash.
Someone has already said so in this thread, but personal anecdotes are not evidence for an overwhelming trend. Your sister sounds pretty cool, though.

Neronium said:
Dragonbums said:
I wonder how the Young Justice fans will feel knowing that their awesome show was cancelled because execs still haven't grown out of their cootie phase.
Well I already have known that Ted Turner is a complete and utter dumbass, so the fact that his staff is probably a bunch of little kids wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
Especially since I've seen many awesome shows cancelled by Cartoon Network, which makes me sad.
Let us all take a moment to remember these shows:
The list goes on. Really all those shows, especially Time Squad and Thundercats 2011, were cancelled way too early. Hell, it's pretty much impossible to find Time Squad online anymore and I know many people who don't even remember it much. T^T
Time squad is exceptionally easy to find online, actually. I just did a search and found the complete series in one place, though I won't dare speak my methods here lest I receive swift judgement from the banhammer again.
 

MrHide-Patten

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I bet the executives that got MLP were CREAMING themselves when the found out more boys were watching it (not that I did, but still). Creaming, in their soulless pants made by child slaves in a factory powered by orphan's dreams.

If I ever meet a TV Exec I'm kicking him in the nads (or her in the ovaries). Don't care who, indiscriminate nad kicking.