People are being WAY too critical of The Elder Scrolls Online!

Saladfork

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I mostly hate the fact that they keep ruining my favourite games by making them into MMOs.

WoW killed any chance for a warcraft 4, and I loved warcraft 3.

TOR killed any chance of a KOTOR 3, and KOTOR 2 was the only thing that, along with the original trilogy, justified Star Wars' existence.

Neverwinter is killing any chance of a neverwinter nights 3, and I loved NWN2 (especially mask of the betrayer).

I'm sure there are more, though I can't think of them off the top of my head.

In this particular case they've at least set it up so that when it fails spectacularily, it won't ruin the real elder scrolls games (hopefully Bethesda will just pretend it didn't happen).
 

Madman Muntz

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MephistosCousin said:
This video is giving a LOT of negative feelings this games way...and honestly guys I gotta say it's undeserved.

Give the guys a freaking break this is like one of the first Beta's they've had, they still have MONTHS of development to go through to fix up details on animations. AND what is with this crap being thrown against the bad graphics? OF COURSE IT IS! it's early beta guys...what mmo has it's Graphics cranked to eleven during it's early beta's?

~Mudcrab taking way too long to kill? Beta
~Animations aren't good enough? Beta
~Graphics are bad? Beta
~Where is all the cool stuff they promised? grr we got lied too! Uhh...no it's beta its just the first 20 minutes of the beta of a MMO...what MMO has a super cool/exciting first 20 minutes?
~Looks like a WoW clone? uhh...how so? I mean I can tell they come from the same genre but it seems to look like it's more related to Guild Wars 2 with a bit of DDO thrown in for good measure (not that stealing/borrowing/whatever is any better when taken from those games)

And another thing that seems to be repeated some more...this game is ONLY being published and directed by Bethesda...they are not making it. That means that this MMO is NOT going to destroy TES if it fails or in ANY way impede on the next one coming out. (or Skyrim expansion)

Come on guys...at least let the game come out before tearing it a new hole...if it's bad i'll be right there with you guys tearing it apart and gnawing on the poor beast's carcass. But give them some credit and at least be SLIGHTLY optimistic for the game or at least wish them the best of luck...wouldn't you rather this game be GOOD or at least decent?

Give it a chance is all I ask.
Core game play mechanics in no way resembling the years of source material its was adapted from, NOT beta.

I honestly have no idea if the game will be good or bad, but from that footage it looks to resemble Age of Conan more than anything Elder scrolls.
 

hermes

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My problem with the game is not the buggy or clumsy state that could be attributed to a beta... Its the fact the game looks generic, it looks nothing like what people like about Elder Scrolls, and plays nothing like what people want from Elder Scrolls games.

I think, in this case, "WOW clone" is thrown as synonym of "same as a lot of things out there" or "generic", and while I don't think that is a fair comparison (to WoW), I see where people are coming from: this is not Elder Scrolls, this is just another MMO with the chance to play as lizard-people and cat-people.
 

BloatedGuppy

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AndrewF022 said:
The Secret World
Launched with a full subscription model. They only revoked it when the game fell flat on its ass coming out of the gate.

AndrewF022 said:
Obviously F2P without box retail would be ideal
I'll have to disagree. It's certainly beneficial in terms of zero barrier to entry, but FTP tends to come with some pretty dubious tradeoffs, including a game designed around nudging if not straight out pushing people into purchases through hard-baked tedium or constant needling. As alluring as "free" is, FTP games tend to be fairly shitty games. And actually accessing the content locked behind the fee wall tends to cost many times over what a subscription fee would have set you back.

Grape_Bullion said:
Guild Wars 2 IS a WoW clone. Everquest came out first, you could make the argument that WoW is a Everquest clone if you really wanted. I figured it went without saying that I was talking about MMO's but I guess not.
GW2 isn't anything close to being a "WoW clone". Would that it was. Some of its prime deviations from formula ended up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

And WoW wasn't really an Everquest clone either, despite carrying over some familiar loot/level mechanics. The core experience is wildly different between the two games.

Honestly can we stop with the "clone" nonsense? It's incredibly disingenuous. Yes, there is a sub-genre of MMOs that share some basic design elements and UI aesthetics. This does not in any way, shape or form make them "clones".

Soviet Heavy said:
People said the same thing about The Old Republic. "You can't criticize the visuals, it's a beta!". Now look at the game.
TOR was actually a very handsome game running on a decent PC, it just didn't scale well. The visuals were the least of its problems.

Grape_Bullion said:
Before we go deeper, I'm just going to say I played maybe an hour of GW2 and WoW combined, so that's where my opinion comes from.
It shows.

Grape_Bullion said:
In GW2 you can WADS out of the way sometimes and sort of clumsily aim. Keys 1-10 do stuff. Besides that? You click bad guys to start hitting, you click powers to make them go. On a scale of 1-That's a WoW clone, that's a WoW clone. It may be more in depth as it goes on, but those are base mechanics and they're the same as any other generic MMO that's come out in the past forever.
Yeah, this is not compelling analysis. It's obvious you dislike the genre, you can leave it at that. It's like listening to a guy who hates wine trying to explain how all wines are fundamentally the same, or a guy who hates music claiming it's all just noise.

Hagi said:
This the Escapist. ESO is an MMORPG.

Do the math, it'll be hated by most everyone here.
Pretty much this. The Escapist is about as far from an MMO fan site as you're likely to find in a gaming community.

MephistosCousin said:
Give it a chance is all I ask.
I'm going to withhold judgment until I've seen it in action, OP, but to be honest I'm not terribly optimistic. I don't get that "They know what they're doing" vibe from the developer interviews and pre-release hype I've heard, and the aesthetics don't exactly grip the imagination. It has a worrying pong of failure around it. But you never know. Games have surprised before, this could be one of them.

Of the (relatively few) upcoming AAA MMOs, I think Wildstar and WOD are your best bets prior to getting a glimpse of Titan. WOD because CCP does know what they're doing, and Wildstar because they've got a "getting back to basics" attitude that I think has been sorely missing the last few years. They have a good handle on what works and what doesn't.
 

Thoric485

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I'll be glad if it falls flat on its face just like the rest of the unimaginative theme parks from the last 8 years or so that have turned MMORPGs from the cutting edge of video game technology into the most stagnant and outdated genre in the industry by far.

It's for the greater good. Maybe after this one drops dead/F2P too, publishers will dare think players might enjoy doing other things in a MMO than scripted raids, instanced battlegrounds and fetch quests all tied to an endless gear treadmill.

Bethesda won't even take that much of a hit. They made enough money out of Skyrim to fund two MMOs.
 

Ftaghn To You Too

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It spits on my favorite game franchise and shows absolutely no signs of doing anything even remotely interesting.

When it fails, absolutely no one will be surprised.
 

AlotFirst

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Hagi said:
This the Escapist. ESO is an MMORPG.

Do the math, it'll be hated by most everyone here.
Well, I suspect that most people on MMORPG.com will hate it as well, because they think it isn't MMORPGGGG enough. Poor ESO, you pathetic little misfit. : )
 

mad825

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Ickorus said:
.
This just in:
Witcher 2, Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Dark Souls 2 are all WoW clones.
Eh...No Skyrim? They're more like God of War clones.

That said, I would call Wow a runescape clone.
 

KungFuJazzHands

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I find it ironic that the biggest critics of TESO seem to be hardcore fans of the Elder Scrolls series, a series that has long consisted of cookie-cutter FPS design and generic fantasy derivation. They're expecting innovation from a company that hasn't shown any for over a decade.
 

MorganL4

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AndrewF022 said:
That said, if they dropped the subscription model, and released it a la Guild Wars, Defiance or The Secret World I would probably check it out, knowing even if it was broken at launch (which is probably will be haha) I would be able to come back to it later, without forking over more money, once they solve any launch issues.

It pisses me off that people get on MMOs for being broken at launch.... Am I the only one that was alive in 2004? Because you know what guys? WOW was as broken as it gets at launch!

They were doing nothing but huge bug fixes for months and months after launch.

Hell, when I played Star Trek Online, I played for over a year before I gave up on it, I actively overlooked the problems, trying to allow Cryptic time to fix the problems, they didn't.... Apparently most of them have been fixed NOW thanks to the PWE buyout.

But my point is this: If you are raging at an MMO dev for releasing a broken MMO at launch, and your argument is "BUT WoW IS BETTER!!!" Then there is a certain place from which you must dislodge your head.


Now, we are in a ridiculous scenario where people are raging on a game for being broken and unfinished WHILE IN CLOSED BETA!!!

WTF guys? I mean REALLY!!!


KungFuJazzHands said:
I find it ironic that the biggest critics of TESO seem to be hardcore fans of the Elder Scrolls series, a series that has long consisted of cookie-cutter FPS design and generic fantasy derivation. They're expecting innovation from a company that hasn't shown any for over a decade.

Morrowind may have been over a decade ago, but it was full of innovation.
 

Ickorus

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mad825 said:
Ickorus said:
.
This just in:
Witcher 2, Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Dark Souls 2 are all WoW clones.
Eh...No Skyrim? They're more like God of War clones.

That said, I would call Wow a runescape clone.
Skyrim is a tricky one, you can play the game in first person and third person so it alternates between WoW clone and CoD clone.
 

spartandude

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MorganL4 said:
AndrewF022 said:
That said, if they dropped the subscription model, and released it a la Guild Wars, Defiance or The Secret World I would probably check it out, knowing even if it was broken at launch (which is probably will be haha) I would be able to come back to it later, without forking over more money, once they solve any launch issues.

It pisses me off that people get on MMOs for being broken at launch.... Am I the only one that was alive in 2004? Because you know what guys? WOW was as broken as it gets at launch!
as somebody who didnt play WoW at launch i say this... I dont care.

it was bad at launch...so what? its good now. its a pretty stupid idea to compete with the biggest thing in the market by being as (non)funtional as it was 9 years ago.

It would be like running in the olympics againt Usain Bolt and being as fast as he was 9 years before he won the gold. you cant exactly expect people to start betting on you.
 

Hagi

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AlotFirst said:
Hagi said:
This the Escapist. ESO is an MMORPG.

Do the math, it'll be hated by most everyone here.
Well, I suspect that most people on MMORPG.com will hate it as well, because they think it isn't MMORPGGGG enough. Poor ESO, you pathetic little misfit. : )
That goes for every single game on MMORPG.com though xD

For every game 90% of that website utterly and completely despises it whilst 10% believes it be the greatest thing in the universe.

The only exceptions are dead sandbox MMOs and sandbox MMOs in pre-alpha stage, those everyone loves. As soon as actual gameplay information is released though people will start hating them.
 

MorganL4

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spartandude said:
MorganL4 said:
AndrewF022 said:
That said, if they dropped the subscription model, and released it a la Guild Wars, Defiance or The Secret World I would probably check it out, knowing even if it was broken at launch (which is probably will be haha) I would be able to come back to it later, without forking over more money, once they solve any launch issues.

It pisses me off that people get on MMOs for being broken at launch.... Am I the only one that was alive in 2004? Because you know what guys? WOW was as broken as it gets at launch!
as somebody who didnt play WoW at launch i say this... I dont care.

it was bad at launch...so what? its good now. its a pretty stupid idea to compete with the biggest thing in the market by being as (non)funtional as it was 9 years ago.

It would be like running in the olympics againt Usain Bolt and being as fast as he was 9 years before he won the gold. you cant exactly expect people to start betting on you.

So, if I take your analogy.... You are saying that because Usain Bolt won gold at the Olympics we should no longer train ANY OTHER runners for the rest of time? Because lets be honest, no runner won every race they ever ran while training for the Olympics.
 

spartandude

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MorganL4 said:
spartandude said:
MorganL4 said:
AndrewF022 said:
That said, if they dropped the subscription model, and released it a la Guild Wars, Defiance or The Secret World I would probably check it out, knowing even if it was broken at launch (which is probably will be haha) I would be able to come back to it later, without forking over more money, once they solve any launch issues.

It pisses me off that people get on MMOs for being broken at launch.... Am I the only one that was alive in 2004? Because you know what guys? WOW was as broken as it gets at launch!
as somebody who didnt play WoW at launch i say this... I dont care.

it was bad at launch...so what? its good now. its a pretty stupid idea to compete with the biggest thing in the market by being as (non)funtional as it was 9 years ago.

It would be like running in the olympics againt Usain Bolt and being as fast as he was 9 years before he won the gold. you cant exactly expect people to start betting on you.

So, if I take your analogy.... You are saying that because Usain Bolt won gold at the Olympics we should no longer train ANY OTHER runners for the rest of time? Because lets be honest, no runner won every race they ever ran while training for the Olympics.
no, by all means train your runners, but dont put out someone who was as good as he was 9 years before and expect people to think the new guy will win.
you dont have to win right from the get go, you improve but dont just think people should except you as a champion right away because the current guys wasnt always as good
 

thiosk

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I've been telling the always present "omg y no multiplayer in (morrowwind oblivion sky rim)" crowd that I have a low impression of their collective intelligence and worth as members of society for years.

These are the people to whom tes online is targeted. Now they can strip to their ninnies and jump up and down screaming about mining 4 cabbage to their hearts content.

Enjoy.

Eat they get will not be tes as they know it, and I sincerely doubt that it will be a persistent commercial success. Who knows, could be wrong.
 

Warachia

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frobalt said:
Mr.K. said:
Well if you want to live in a dream world where everything is perfect then by all means tuck yourself in and avoid the outside world, but when outside your happy bubble do expect the harsh reality to cross your path at some point.
Interesting you come out with this sarcasm, as the same could be said to people that complain about pretty much anything they can complain about.

Yes, things aren't perfect and I'm not saying that you shouldn't point out imperfections, but people seem to like judging things based off a small snapshot.

Imagine being able to watch a movie before it's gone through post-production (so all you're seeing is the raw footage). Would you then complain about how unfinished it looks or would you realise that it's in an unfinished state? Now imagine you've only seen the first 2 minutes of raw footage. Would you say it's rational to judge the whole thing as a pile of crap?

No. You wouldn't. Or shouldn't. So why is this acceptable for an MMO?
Because it's being used to promote the game.
You wouldn't take footage from a movie that hasn't gone through post production and use it in the trailer, but if you did, people would be right to criticise.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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You know where a lot of the grief is coming from? The fact it's a fantasy MMO. Do you know what the ratio of fantasy to non fantasy is?

Why Elder Scrolls, why not Fallout?
 

Vrach

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I have not actually seen the video (started watching it, had to interrupt as I didn't have the time and now it's taken down). So take this with a huge grain of salt, I might be talking out of my arse, but I can give some answers to your post based on the objective problem with MMOs, which, bottom line, is what everyone's complaining about.

MephistosCousin said:
~Mudcrab taking way too long to kill? Beta
Not necessarily, this is how MMOs work, it could very well stay that way (it was done like that for beta with a reason). Not saying it won't get changed, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn;t.

MephistosCousin said:
~Animations aren't good enough? Beta
~Graphics are bad? Beta
True. But TES players have expectations and this MMO will never meet them.

MephistosCousin said:
~Where is all the cool stuff they promised? grr we got lied too! Uhh...no it's beta its just the first 20 minutes of the beta of a MMO...what MMO has a super cool/exciting first 20 minutes?
A number of MMOs do. SWTOR comes to mind, the starting area is where I had the most fun in the game (sadly)

MephistosCousin said:
~Looks like a WoW clone? uhh...how so? I mean I can tell they come from the same genre but it seems to look like it's more related to Guild Wars 2 with a bit of DDO thrown in for good measure (not that stealing/borrowing/whatever is any better when taken from those games)
This is the punchline. "Looks like WoW" means what it does for 95% of the MMOs out there - it's using the same tired old hotkey system. No matter how much dressing you put on it, it's just too worn out and doesn't appeal to pretty much anyone when a game has to draw a player in. The only people still willing to put up with this sort of control scheme are the people who are already playing MMOs, and they're doing it for reasons other than just playing a game (friends, guilds, progressed characters, etc.)

MephistosCousin said:
Come on guys...at least let the game come out before tearing it a new hole...if it's bad i'll be right there with you guys tearing it apart and gnawing on the poor beast's carcass. But give them some credit and at least be SLIGHTLY optimistic for the game or at least wish them the best of luck...wouldn't you rather this game be GOOD or at least decent?
I would wish them luck, but it'd be like saying "good luck" to a guy proving he can jump off a building onto solid pavement and survive. Sure, he might turn out to be Superman, but it's too unlikely for me to waste the two words. There's nothing to wish luck to when they're doing what every MMO developer out there has already proved doesn't work.

I'd wish them luck if they had the stones and the brains to try something "new". Which would be to try and turn TES as it is into an MMO. Instead, they're adapting it to the "WoW model" and I neither have the interest nor the remote hope they'll succeed.

Oh and that it's just published and not developed by Bethesda? Sure, it keeps the TES singleplayer franchise intact and that's cool, but tell me, how many games has Bethesda published and not developed, that were actually good? Fallout: NV doesn't count considering they just gave another team all their tools and the pattern to how to make the game, so the answer, in my opinion, is one and that's Dishonored.
 

Wuvlycuddles

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Saladfork said:
I mostly hate the fact that they keep ruining my favourite games by making them into MMOs.

WoW killed any chance for a warcraft 4, and I loved warcraft 3.

TOR killed any chance of a KOTOR 3, and KOTOR 2 was the only thing that, along with the original trilogy, justified Star Wars' existence.

Neverwinter is killing any chance of a neverwinter nights 3, and I loved NWN2 (especially mask of the betrayer).

I'm sure there are more, though I can't think of them off the top of my head.

In this particular case they've at least set it up so that when it fails spectacularily, it won't ruin the real elder scrolls games (hopefully Bethesda will just pretend it didn't happen).
Things do get back to normal though, I mean, Warhammer online bombed, but 5 years later we're getting a proper Warhammer strategy game from creative assembly.

Anyway, I "hate" on TESO because so far I've seen no evidence of any good raid content, which is sadly something sorely lacking from current mmos. I hate on it because they are pushing open world combat as being the big draw for high level characters and even games with good persistent open world pvp gets dull as hell pretty fast and I see no evidence of them allowing the variety of weapons and vehicles of something like Planetside 2.

And it seems like faction imbalance will be an issue from the start too, early indicators show Ebonheart Pact clearly ahead of the other two factions, while things my change, the fact that the gaming community I have been a part of for years have voted on and picked this faction forcing me to pick races I don't particularly want to play makes me more than a little grumpy.

As a Elder scrolls fan for nearly 20 years I am more than a little worried that this game will fail to capture to essence of what makes that series great, I've played more than a few mmos have it really isn't a genre conducive to immersion, you tend to be reminded at every turn that you are playing game.