People are being WAY too critical of The Elder Scrolls Online!

[BloatedGuppy]

I can't help but agree honestly. As I've played the game, many flaws have stuck out at me and the list has only continued to grow (though I still play because I maintain that it's still one of the best MMOs I've ever played).

One particularly damning problem with the game is the devs' insistence that this would be a "no-grind" MMO in which you don't need to farm. Because when they said "no grind", they actually meant "shitloads of grind if you want anything with cosmetic appeal", and when they said "don't need to farm", they meant that everything is designed to prevent farming.

Dungeons reward you with decreasingly less dungeon tokens with each successive run in a given day, up until reset. One of their dungeons doesn't reward you for completion AT ALL after the first run for that day. World bosses only give rewards once per day. Daily laurels are only accessible once per day, and guild commendations once per week. And the game is built around Diminishing Returns, which prevents you from farming any particular region of the game without getting significantly decreased rewards and loot drops.

And yet, you're expected to gather absurd amounts of materials in order to craft anything of significant cosmetic appeal. One particular Exotic-tier weapon requires 350 of an item that drops so rarely, that its present market value is nearly 3 gold per piece. Virtually all ascended gear is designed to be attainable only after a month or so of dedicated play. And don't even get started on legendaries, which have so many requirements that you need a FLOWCHART to figure it all out.

And this is just one area that the game's really screwed up in, though it's admittedly one of the biggest flaws IMO.

So suffice it to say that I agree. The game made strides in innovating the genre, and while some were good changes, others....were clearly not. And yet they're choosing to leave it as is, or even make it worse, just so they can be different. Given their sales figures, I suppose it's working out for them, but they've burned bridges with a lot of their fans in the process. I don't think the expansions will sell nearly as well, when those finally roll out.

It's debatable how well it's worked out for them. They sold 2.5 million copies in the blink of an eye, then labored to sell the next 0.5. One can speculate that the original surge in sales was largely built on the back of their superlative viral marketing. There were a lot of airy promises about revitalizing the genre and turning conventions on their ear, and people bought into it. I should know...I was one of them.

And really...it's a strong game, for what it is. The world is big, and beautiful. The minute to minute game play is...imperfect, but fun enough. The BTP model remains a breath of fresh air and the cash shoppe was surprisingly benign.

What it isn't, though, is the "lifestyle" MMO that WoW refugees are perpetually hunting for. Okay, you've toppled the holy trinity, and replaced it with...a mess. Let's face it, it's a mess. There is little form or cohesion to combat. Team work is minimal, and encounter design is completely lacking outside of FOTM, where it's passable at best. It's not enough to just butcher sacred cows if you have nothing better to slide into their place.

Dungeon design (pre FOTM) was terrible. WvWvW was promising, but instanced maps, queues, poorly thought out rules, zero individual progression and culling killed it in its infancy. It was the best try at a DAoC type system to date, but it fell flat at the finish line. SPvP was a hot mess, the poor class design came back again here, battles just felt like formless melees. No ranking, no spectators, limited maps and game modes. Just...bad.

Not being shackled to an endless raid/loot treadmill at level cap was nice...refreshing, right? No second job. But the game just stops. You could grind for cosmetics, but why? There's some mild upgrades in the form of exotics and ascended gear, but they're tedious as hell to get and nothing more than bland stat upgrades. You could alt, but the (frankly execrable) story line pipes you through the same small handful of zones every time, and skipping it costs you valuable experience and items. So people just stop playing, and honestly I'm not really sure that was the intention.

Again, don't get me wrong...it's a good game. I'd even recommend it, to a person looking for a certain sort of thing. But I'd recommend it as a 200-300 hour story-lite RPG, not as a MMO to play for months or years. I think they had a shot at 3-4M players, at being TNBT...and they missed it.

 

[Grape_Bullion]

Words

See below if you really want.

Words

I don't know how many times I have to say this, so hopefully this will be the last time. I'm defensive because you are saying that my hour of playtime has no merit in an argument comparing two games and that I'm wrong for slandering a game because of that experience (it's not even slander, but that's how you're treating it). I've said that one may be extremely different from the other once one plays longer. But that's not the point and it seems you don't get that. To use a metaphor, it's like being in a book club. And as you're reading the selected book, you get to page 30 or so, you decide that this book isn't for you. Now when you go back to that club, you talk openly about why you didn't like the book. You wouldn't claim to know everything, you would talk about what you didn't like about it, similarities this book had with others, etc. That's what I'm talking about, but you seem to keep insisting otherwise. If a stranger came up to me on the street and asked me if these games were the same I would say "I only played for an hour, but yeah, they seem to be the same." I'm sure there are games you have played where, in the first 10 minutes, you could draw innate and exact comparisons with another. My opinion is just as valid as your opinion. It's not the same and it's for different reasons, but both are just as "important". If you want to disagree at arguments involving why analyzing something at face value and first looks is wrong, we can do that. I'd rather not, but hey, this might be more your cup of tea than mine.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't know how many times I have to say this, so hopefully this will be the last time.

You've said a lot of things, Bullion, including straight up attacking me for contradicting a statement you made, but let's address what you're saying here.

I'm defensive because you are saying that my hour of playtime has no merit in an argument comparing two games and that I'm wrong for slandering a game because of that experience (it's not even slander, but that's how you're treating it). I've said that one may be extremely different from the other once one plays longer. But that's not the point and it seems you don't get that. To use a metaphor, it's like being in a book club. And as you're reading the selected book, you get to page 30 or so, you decide that this book isn't for you. Now when you go back to that club, you talk openly about why you didn't like the book. You wouldn't claim to know everything, you would talk about what you didn't like about it, similarities this book had with others, etc. That's what I'm talking about, but you seem to keep insisting otherwise. If a stranger came up to me on the street and asked me if these games were the same I would say "I only played for an hour, but yeah, they seem to be the same." I'm sure there are games you have played where, in the first 10 minutes, you could draw innate and exact comparisons with another. My opinion is just as valid as your opinion.

You are conflating your subjective opinion:

"I didn't enjoy game X, and felt it was too similar to game Y"

With your objective statement:

"Point and click to do something from a third person camera in a fantasy setting= WoW clone"

The former is your personal reaction to something, and requires no defense. The latter is you attempting to objectively categorize something, and it does require you to substantiate your argument. When that substantiation takes the form of "I played for an hour", people are going to point out that you don't really have the experience or knowledge to be making categorical statements about the games in question.

There was an easy way to deal with this. When people first began to tell you that you were incorrect in calling GW2 "A WoW clone", you could have just said "I guess the differentiation becomes more obvious the longer you play". Instead, you went straight to ad hominem and attempted to paint me as a drooling fanboy because I had the temerity to tell you that calling GW2 a WoW clone was off base.

I could care less whether or not you like GW2, or WoW, or MMOs. Perhaps you find some base similarities in game play disagreeable. I have a friend who finds all first person shooters boring, regardless how varied, because the underlying mechanics irritate him. Whatever, right? That's his deal, he can like whatever he likes. If he popped off in public, however, about how...I dunno...Bioshock Infinite was just a Call of Duty clone, I'd tell him he was out to lunch.

You and I could sit down for hours and I could tell you the many ways in which GW2 is most DEFINITELY not a WoW clone. There are some highly superficial similarities but the games are deeply different at their core. Indeed, hard core fans of WoW tended to be amongst GW2's most ardent detractors.

 

[Grape_Bullion]

Words

Sorry for the late response, working out of town is never fun. I'm not wrong when I say that you WADS and click, in fact, I think you'd agree I'm very right about that. It's not all there is, but I never said it was. I said its what I did. And that's an experience I had with another game. There was an easy way out of this, but let's be honest, we both decided to bite a little too hard.

 

[Phaerim]

I'm sorry. I get where you are coming from OP. I really do. But after I have seen this video I have become massively sceptical about Elder Scrolls Online despite the fact that I am an AVID fan of the Elder Scrolls series.

In terms of MMO's so many have said "This will beat World of Warcraft". And in that effort developers ended up making World of Warcraft in a different universe with minor different features.

I FEAR that Elder Scrolls Online will end up being a WoW clone from what I saw on that 20 minute video and I honestly think it will fail as a game if it does not strip that in terms of gameplay - which I had hoped it would have been inspired by Guild Wars 2.

That being said, I hope they change a lot of stuff - but I call the right to be sceptical since Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, The Old Republic, Rift and Aion failed to tip WoW from it's (well deserved) peak.

Guild Wars 2 is still going strong but it is also trying to build itself as a standalone game. Not a WoW clone.

 

[Charli]

It's an MMO, a big name MMO, anything less than unfiltered criticism is going to land it a firm place on WoW's trophy cabinet of old MMO skulls. MMO's are big work. Less than that along with some innovation is going to leave you dead in the water, and the piranhas in that pool are fast and ravenous. Big money, big losses. Alot of people to make unhappy.


I am very lenient, but this is not what the game needs right now, it needs to be told when it's going to fail and the data in MY mind collected from testing nearly every major (and some minor) MMO to come out in the last...6 years? Tells me that this is not going to cut the cheese.

The first 20 minutes to one hour are CRUCIAL to your ability to hook the player. While there is still no word on method of payment, it does factor in too but for the time being I will presume a freemium model is in place as I do before anything is said.


I love MMO's. I like to see MMO's succeed. This... is half baked.

 

[fix-the-spade]

so in all honestly this game is probably doomed to failure JUST because it's an MMO and not WoW

That remains to be seen.

World of Tanks and Planetside2 are doing alright, Turbine's various MMOs are still going. The problem a lot have (including TOR and on first impression TES:Online) is that they basically ape WoW in every way they can, which spells doom. Like World of Warcraft, but without the stability, without the bottomless content pit and without a few million players to interact with, why would that entice any WoW players away from their hard levelled characters?

MMOs can survive just fine, but a subscription based persistent Warcraft-like game will struggle the same way Call of duty clones struggle, the market's already dominated and not by the new guy either.

 

[scorptatious]

Right, I would like to just say that I am a massive supporter of ANY kind of Elder Scrolls MMO. I'd even pay double the price of a game just for co-op. Because playing in a world like with my friends and mods could create a game like no other.

I won't go into full detail now, as if you were to look back on my post history, I am fairly certain I signed up for the express purpose of explaining why a co-op mode or an MMO of the Elder Scrolls (preferably the co-op, however) would be the most amazing thing in the entire fucking world.

Let me just list a few things:

1. If MMO:
Group of people take fort, become bandits, rob random players walking by. People get pissed and band together, charging and attacking the fort. The bandits might then have a siege on their hands, and may just barricade the entrance so they can try and hold out. Armies might form and fight for control of the land. Thieve's would be rampant. Assasins would exist. You literally do not have to add ANYTHING to an Elder Scrolls game for this to happen. Just add more players and boom, a world will be reborn.

I swear, within the first month of an MMO like that, there would already be a few massive armies with towns under their control, and players guarding them. There would be courier services, merchant caravans, travelling alchemists, Robin the Fucking Hood and mercs. There would be siege's and battles, and dare I say it...

Horse Armour!...(EDI: That was a joke.)

Okay, now THAT sounds awesome.

OT: *shrugs* if Yogscast's series of FFXIV videos has taught me anything, if the beta of an MMO doesn't seem all that engaging or fun, it's probably goint to stay that way at release.

 

[Bato]

I haven't been following the ESO updates much recently because I know it'll disappoint me with the setting.

But people have said it looks like WoW, some equate it to Guild Wars. The problem is the WoW shaped niche in the market is already filled, by WoW.
We don't need another game like it as long as WoW exists, which is why Guild Was is going strong. Because it's not trying to be WoW. Which also means the Guild Wars shaped niche is also filled.


But I already know Lore Wise it is going to disappointing me from the fact they have the Factions, and these factions make no sense.
What are they?

Well, we have the Aldmeri Dominion with the Altmer, Bosmer, and Khajiit.
Okay, that's fine. I wouldn't consider the Khajiit as part of the Dominion but they have been Summerset's bootlick ever since they claimed to have saved their moon.

Daggerfall Covenant with the Orc/Orsimer, Breton, and Redguard.
Half of the Orc's History has been spent getting killed by Bretons. The other half is getting killed by Redguard. They have grudges that are eternal. In fact the only group of people who accept the Orcs are the Imperial, and that's because the Imperial see their usefulness.

Ebonheart Pact with the Dunmer, Nord, and Argonian.
Nope.
The Nord hate the Mer of all kinds especially the Dunmer right next to them.
And the Dunmer and Argonian have even worse blood between them than Orcs and Bretons.
When Red Mountain exploded between Oblivion and Skyrim the Argonians invaded the weakened Morrowind just to screw them over and enslave them as the Dunmer had done to them.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Ebonheart Pact with the Dunmer, Nord, and Argonian.
Nope.
The Nord hate the Mer of all kinds especially the Dunmer right next to them.
And the Dunmer and Argonian have even worse blood between them than Orcs and Bretons.
When Red Mountain exploded between Oblivion and Skyrim the Argonians invaded the weakened Morrowind just to screw them over and enslave them as the Dunmer had done to them.

As much as I think ESO is gonna suck, the ebonhart pact makes sense.

Five Songs of King Wulfharth
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth
"The Nords asked the Devil of Dagoth why he might betray his countrymer so, and he said that the Devils have betrayed each other since the beginning of time, and this was so, and so the Nords believed him. The Tongues sung Shor's ghost into the world again. Shor gathered an army as he did of old, and then he sucked in the long-strewn ashes of King Wulfharth and remade him, for he needed a good general. But the Devil of Dagoth petitioned to be that general, too, and he pointed out his role as the blessed harbinger of this holy war. So Shor had two generals, the Ash King and the Devil of Dagoth, and he marched on the eastern kingdoms with all the sons of Skyrim."

"And so Dagoth-Ur, who wanted the Dwarves as dead as the Tribunal did, went to Kogoran and summoned his House chap'thil, his nix-hounds, his wizards, archers, his stolen men of brass."

"Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: ?Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?? And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed."

The Arcturian Heresy
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy
"He raises a storm, sends in his people, and is driven back by Tribunal forces. The Dunmer are too strong now. Wulfharth goes underground to wait and strengthen and reform his body anew. Oddly enough, it is Almalexia who disturbs his rest, summoning the Underking to fight alongside the Tribunal against Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, the Akaviri demon. Wulfharth disappears after Ada'Soom is defeated, and does not return for three hundred years."

The Nords and Dunmer, despite being enemies, have teamed up multiple times in the past, when great need arose. Hell, King Wulfharth, Ysmir Kingmaker, The Underking himself, answered the call of the Dunmer's own Tribunal, despite being the most anti-Dunmer Nord to have ever lived.

Also, the Argonians fight with the Dunmer to show them they are more then just slaves. that and they are being controlled by The Hist, a race of sentient trees from before Mundus's creation, that don't want Mundus to be destroyed by Molag Bal, it doesn't matter if the Argonians and dunmer hate each other, The Hist told the Argonians to work with them, and so they shall.


This is all basic lore.


And all of what you said about Red Mountains explosion is false, the Argonians only invaded the southern most part of Morrowind, because that was part of Black Marsh in the past, and the Hist wanted it back, and they didn't take the Dunmer as slaves, hell, the Argonians haven't even done anything but sit on the land they took, they dont even try to farm it.

 

[Sir Pootis]

Here's why I'm critical of it:
1. TES has largely been about exploring the world around you. Now take that, add about 100 douchebags around you swearing and spoiling quests and story paths, and the majority of the game is just your average MMO experience, even if the gameplay isn't.
2. Saying it's Beta is not a good excuse for a bad release. Beta is primarily for bug testing, so not much will change. Granted, if a majority finds something they don't like, it'l get changed, but not much will.