Picture of everything wrong with the US justice system

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Does life imprisonment not also exclude any chance of reform? And if you honestly think that paedophiles and terrorists and serial killers can change, try inviting one over for coffee sometime.

In my personal opinion I also believe that a full life sentence with no possibility of parole is wrong for exactly the same reason, justice should be about redemption, reform and (if possible) reconciliation, not revenge. Of course some people cannot be reformed and will never show remorse so I guess for that reason life in prison is always going to be an option even if I still disagree with what it stands for morally. But I'd make damn sure that was the case before I sentenced any individual with that kind of no-way-back finality. However, in either case, it doesn't change my mind that state sponsored murder is just wrong and allowing people to come and watch is just sick.

Simple revenge, in these cases, is a pretty good motive. If your son or daughter were raped and murdered (example) you would agree. You've also failed to highlight a clear distinction between justice and revenge, since we're supposed to see one.

No, revenge is NEVER a good motive. While it is true that I would personally wish nothing but ill on a person who had done what you describe there, that is exactly the reason why relatives of victims have no say in what happens to the guilty party. Just because I would want him dead from my attached and irrational perspective does not mean that it is the just thing for the state to do.

I would have thought the difference between justice and revenge was simple. As I said above, justice should be about redemption, or at least making sure no-one else gets hurt. When you factor in the death penalty, further people are being hurt, and when we start talking in terms of who deserves to die, or who deserves to have a friend or relative be killed, in the name of justice, then we are on a very, VERY, slippery slope.

Justice should only ever be constructive, whilst revenge will only ever be destructive. Revenge only ever creates more suffering and loss, and will make the friends/family of the original guilty man feel like they're the ones who have been wronged, and then they will want revenge. Revenge also rarely provides the people who seek it with the peace that they need. Seeking it, and exacting it only tarnishes people and brings them down to the level of the person they wanted revenge on.

And society is automatically better, because it isn't the belligerent party. The criminal goes out and commits a horrific offence, society then reacts with what at most amounts to an infliction of equal harm. Being in that position, i.e. not having done anything wrong to begin with, means an automatic moral high ground unless the response is vastly disproportionate. Killing a killer clearly isn't.

Murder is murder and I don't care how you try to dress it up! In fact, I would argue that a state that has capital punishment is in some case worse than the people it executes; because then the state isn't just a murderer, it's a hypocrite too.

If you are a leader then you lead by example. It's that simple. The death penalty is not leading by example, simply ruling through the threat of force. No matter how hard it is sometimes and no matter how much you may want to just take an eye for an eye, leaders must remember that this will always do more harm than good. It negates any prospect of redemption (no matter how small it was in the first place), It harms people who have done nothing wrong (ie friends/family of the guilty man), it undermines the respect you can command as a leader, you can never be 100% sure you are not condemning an innocent to death for a crime they did not commit, and it won't help the victims, no matter how much they may want it.

In my opinion there are two, only two justifications in this world for killing another man. (1) If your life or the life of a loved one is in direct danger from the person in question and it would not have been easier to incapacitate them in any other way (this is self-defense), and (2) If you are a soldier/policeman and taking the life of one armed enemy combatant (NOT IN COLD BLOOD) who could not be detained will save the lives and livelihoods of many innocents in the near future (that is higher duty). neither of these apply to capital punishment!

P.S. Just in case you were thinking of hitting me with the 'death-penalty solves overcrowding issue' argument, I have 3 points in response to that...

1. America is a bigger fan of capital punishment then any other country in the western world, but also has the most serious overcrowding in prisons of the western world. So it clearly doesn't do it very well.

2. If I were the one making these decisions I would abolish many of the smaller, bullshit prison sentences (seriously whats the point in sending a minor offender to prison for 6 months to a couple of years? What does it achieve? It's just a waste of time, money, and cell space) in favor of out-of-prison alternatives. This would free up MUCH more space than capital punishment does as minor sentences are a lot more common than death-row sentences, and therefore allow more deserving criminals to be kept inside longer than they are now.

3. What kind of BS excuse for cold-blooded murder is that 'it's more convenient'?!?!

 

[PureChaos]

Think of it this way. That homeless guy now has a home and consistant food for 15 years.

Great. You ever been in prison?

apparently some prisoners have passed up opportunities to escape because they have such an easy life in prison, but that may be UK prisons rather than US prisons. not sure

Context is everything. WHY do they pass up the opportunities?

i don't know the ins and outs of it, i heard about it a few years ago. all i know is they had such a good life in prison they had the opportunity to escape but decided not to and stayed in prison

 

[Blemontea]

all i can imagine now is a racist Mr. Krabs counting off money he got from the two cases.

 

[Saelune]

Think of it this way. That homeless guy now has a home and consistant food for 15 years.

Great. You ever been in prison?

You ever been homeless?

No, and I'm sure it sucks, but I don't think prison is better. People have this picture of prison as this idyllic pleasure palace where you get to watch TV all day and get free food, and they conveniently forget that it's a great place to get addicted to drugs and fall in with gangs. Not to mention the fact that it's soul-destroying.

But yeah, let's send all our homeless people to prison, great solution. Let's not work together to solve their problems, get them jobs, get them places to live. Just throw them in prison instead.

What a fucked up world we live in.

Neither is automatically better. Some homeless people have it better than prisoners, some prisoners (not just wealthy ones in cushy prisons) have it better than homeless people.

 

[spacewalker]

Think of it this way. That homeless guy now has a home and consistant food for 15 years.

Great. You ever been in prison?

You ever been homeless?

There was a story this week of a homeless person robbing a bank for one dollar so he would go to prison.
What is worse of the two is very dependant on where you live, i think.

 

[SilentCom]

I've never really liked lawyers, judges, and the legal system. Notice how I didn't call it the 'justice' system because nothing about it is about justice.

 

[Manatee Slayer]

While this disgusts me it isn't much of a surprise.

Although reading some of the comments in this thread reminds me of a conversation from A Christmas Carol.

?At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge,? said the gentleman, taking up a pen, ?it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.?

?Are there no prisons?? asked Scrooge.

?Plenty of prisons,? said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

?And the Union workhouses?? demanded Scrooge. ?Are they still in operation??

?They are. Still,? returned the gentleman, ?I wish I could say they were not.?

?The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?? said Scrooge.

?Both very busy, sir.?

?Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,? said Scrooge. ?I?m very glad to hear it.?

?Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,? returned the gentleman, ?a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for??

?Nothing!? Scrooge replied.

?You wish to be anonymous??

?I wish to be left alone,? said Scrooge. ?Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don?t make merry myself at Christmas and I can?t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned?they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.?

?Many can?t go there; and many would rather die.?

?If they would rather die,? said Scrooge, ?they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

 

[TheDooD]

I've never really liked lawyers, judges, and the legal system. Notice how I didn't call it the 'justice' system because nothing about it is about justice.

It's basically a punishment / revenge system. It's based around "high and mighty" punishing people for making mistakes instead of truly trying to help them.

 

[Treaos Serrare]

Business criminals like the first dude need to be brutally tortured and killed with blunt objects, period.

The homeless man should have been given community service duty for a few months and be done with it He only took 100 dollars, and didn't kill or hurt anyone and turned himself in in little to no time at all

 

[Dragonpit]

Think of it this way. That homeless guy now has a home and consistant food for 15 years.
That buisness guy now has a <6 year time period to get stabbed. (Sure the homeless guy does too, but hes probably just as likely to get stabbed being homeless too)

Uh...the business man is only going to be incarcerated for just three years and four months, not six years. And I thought that fraud in this case was considered a type of theft.

Also, Captcha: emplos OFFICE (

 

[VanTesla]

I've seen worse... I've also seen some asinine, retarded ones... Point is the system sucks!

 

[VanTesla]

Also this guy shouldn't even be in prison... That is not helping any one, he was no threat by showing he felt guilty enough to turn himself in the next day with the money... How many desperate people do you think would do that? almost zero! They should have found the guy a job and have him pay X amount over a long time period.

 

[VanTesla]

Business criminals like the first dude need to be brutally tortured and killed with blunt objects, period.

The homeless man should have been given community service duty for a few months and be done with it He only took 100 dollars, and didn't kill or hurt anyone and turned himself in in little to no time at all

I agree 100% on the slaughtering of the parasites.

 

[funguy2121]

I found this photo earlier and googled the cases just to make sure they were real. And they were.

So, really? How can there be that much discrepancy between the two cases?

Kinda funny he gets to use his probably fraud-stricken money to defend him. This is just what he got caught for, who knows what else he wasn't caught doing. Gets a 40 month sentence, which, beside being nothing, will probably be at a country-club jail.

How does nothing get done with such blatant evidence like this?

*looks at ground and shakes head*

The homeless man doesn't have (what was it, 9 thousand?) attorneys to help him dodge paying taxes like GE did this year. I'm with Michael Moore. The show Cops should focus on taking down the people who fuck over the rest of us so they can hold on to a bigger (already overlarge) piece of the pie.

"You know, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fucking each other over for a Goddamn percentage." (cookies provided upon furnishing of reference)

 

[Kagim]

How to make sense of this case.

1) Ignore the yellow bits. They have been highlighted to mislead you.
2) Actually read the entire articles.
3) Go do that now. Seriously.
-Read between the lines-
4)Think, for five seconds, about the two circumstances.

Now, let's review. While the guy who stole billions stole a much larger sum of money he did it through deceit and lying. The second criminal robbed a bank with an assumed firearm.

From this step we can infer right off the bat why the sentences. While Criminal X stole billions he did it through fraud. In other words, through non-violent means. Citizens might be pissed off about the whole fraud bullshit, but they are alive and unhurt. No matter what people say they would rather be alive then rich.

Criminal Y, on the other hand, committed assumed armed robbery. In other words, they have expressed intent to harm others. This is considered worse then fraud, as discussed earlier.

--------------Now, it's time to read between the lines---------------

Criminal X is a businessman. Likely living a cushy life. The 40 months in prison? Are going to be hell. He will be released after what will be like torment to him. How his life is after that, well i can't really say. His connections might boost him back to power. They might slap him to the gutter and he might lose everything.

Criminal Y? He did it on purpose. He doesn't take all the money. he tells the bank teller he is homeless and hungry. Then tells the authorities that he needs rehab. He pleads guilty. To anyone who didn't live in a cushy middle class residential area the fact he was trying to get arrested is pretty damn obvious. Growing up people would break any law to get them off the streets and into prison for the winter. They WANTED to be in jail. The way the case unravels that is very clear. He was looking to get arrested. The proof is in the article.

"The next he surrendered to the police voluntarily and told them his mother didn't raise him that way"

He wanted ot go to prison. Because he would be fed, looked after, and kept much safer in prison.

Yes, he coudl get stabbed, or raped, or beaten or any number of horrible things. However for him he will have a much higher chance of staying alive.

So no. This is NOT a case of "everything wrong with the US justice system". This is a case of something wrong with the community not giving enough to create a better alternative for homeless outside of prison or freezing to death on the streets.

You can all go back to freaking out about injustice and how corrupt the country you live in is while refusing to give a dime to homeless shelters or an hour lifting a ladle....

 

[Elamdri]

Spoiler: snip

I found this photo earlier and googled the cases just to make sure they were real. And they were.

So, really? How can there be that much discrepancy between the two cases?

Kinda funny he gets to use his probably fraud-stricken money to defend him. This is just what he got caught for, who knows what else he wasn't caught doing. Gets a 40 month sentence, which, beside being nothing, will probably be at a country-club jail.

How does nothing get done with such blatant evidence like this?

*looks at ground and shakes head*

Well, a couple things:

1st: As it turns out, turning yourself in and confessing to a crime is not a great way to stay out of jail. The other guy fought his case.

2nd: Although he didn't use a gun, the homeless man used the threat of force with his crime, while the other guy committed a fraud. Force tends to really escalate things in a bad way.

3rd: Money.

 

[Gindil]

im sure they are both bad in there own ways. but if i have a choice i think ill take the option where i get food water shelter medical care a shower (and all the butt secks i can ever need )

You do realize that hepatitis and HIV in the U.S. prison system has become a serious public health concern, right? And there's no condoms in almost all U.S. prisons.

Prison rape really isn't a joke.

I'll forgive you if you don't know this, it doesn't get nearly enough (or any) press coverage.

There's been a recent study about prison rape. PDF [http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf]

Ironically enough, it's mostly the guards [http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/20/rape-factories]

Contrary to popular belief, most of the perpetrators were not other prisoners but staff members?corrections officials whose job it is to keep inmates safe. On average, each victim was abused between three and five times over the course of the year. The vast majority were too fearful of reprisals to seek help or file a formal complaint.