Pillars of Eternity: your opinion so far?

RavingSturm

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Casters needing rest and a limited number of spells per day is a balance thing going back to D&D. The D&D designers wanted players to focus on teamwork and character synergy. Imagine if your priest/wizard could use heavy armor w/o penalties plus unlimited spell casting.
 

DoPo

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RavingSturm said:
Casters needing rest and a limited number of spells per day is a balance thing going back to D&D. The D&D designers wanted players to focus on teamwork and character synergy.
Yes, and the D&D designers failed, by the way. The restriction was stupid and the implementation of it was stupider still. It created a class imbalance because it was poorly handled - AD&D admittedly suffered less, 3.X was pretty much screwed.

The problem is that their idea of balance goes like this "Well, spellcasters can use powerful abilities but only a limited amount of times per day, fighters can keep up fighting all the time". The reality was rather different - sure spellcasters are limited but when their spells dry up, they are pretty much useless. Well, at lower levels, at least, at higher levels they may have magic wands and scrolls and stuff. I'll come back to those later. At any rate when spellcasters are spent, even though fighters can go on (I'll come back to this as well), they'd be pressured to rest with the group. So, from this, the restriction suddenly doesn't make sense - yes the spellcasters do get a limit but that's actually a limit on the entire group. It's as good as no limit, since there is almost no penalty for the group to rest every fight or two, which would enable the spellcasters to never really run out of spells. Which means that spellcasters don't even need to ration their resources - they get even more power, since they can go nova in every fight, expending as much resources as possible, which means they'd outperform "mundane" classes even more. And again, when they run out of spells, the group is pressured to stop and rest anyway.

Now, I mentioned the scrolls and wands. These are items which allow spellcasters to expend a different form of resource in order to cast spells - namely, the scrolls themselves, or wand charges. They would use that instead of the spells they have prepared. This allows them to sidestep the Vancian magic restriction. Sure, they do expend a form or resources, but D&D adventurers start swimming in gold after they've delved into few dungeons, so it's not really taxing on the characters, really. In other words, they can throw money at a problem and it goes away. There are other exploits that would make the casters completely obliterate the problem, but those are more system specific, this the consumable casting items are a general flaw in the design of it.

The other thing I wanted to come back to is the idea of "unlimited resources for fighters". The idea is pretty much this, but I'd just elaborate slightly - the spellcasters are bound by how much they can cast per day, the fighter classes are supposed to have no such restriction - they can swing their weapon all day long and more - long after the wizards run out of fireballs, the clerics run out of cures and so on. It appears that the fighters are not restricted, but they actually are. They do have a resource they can run out of - a very precious resource - health. Fighters are supposed to be bravely whacking bad guys with various tolls of war, but this means they are exposed to being whacked back by the enemies - more so than the frail wizards[footnote]And even that gets perverted by D&D. Sure, "frail wizards" is the stereotype but BECAUSE of that, they are encouraged to stack up constitution. They could have more than the fighters, even, so the PC wizards are more likely to have paramount fitness levels.[/footnote]. This means that fighters have a higher chance of losing health - no matter the armour, they are going to. And health is a non-renewable resource - not unless other resources are expended - health potions, are one kind, but the other is magic. Yes, those same cure spells by the priest that the fighters can brave without...are actually needed. So either they rest or they die. Or risk dying anyway - the difference at this point is negligible, since they want to rest. Hey, it gives them some HP back, as well.

In summary, the spellcasting restriction was not well done. On top of the problems outlined above, it adds a really obnoxious amount of bookkeeping which bogs the game down. It doesn't do what it's supposed to do as it manages to fail in several ways.

RavingSturm said:
Imagine if your priest/wizard could use heavy armor w/o penalties plus unlimited spell casting.
Sure - it's not hard: they can in D&D 3.X. They are called "spellcasters". The wizard class is widely acknowledged to be vastly superior than all those non-spellcasting classes, there is also the term "CoDzilla" - no, it's not about a modern first person shooter franchise, it stands for "cleric or druid"-zilla. Named after what they can do to a game - the best description of druids[footnote]aside from them having abilities more powerful than entire classes [http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html][/footnote] I've heard is "you can turn into fucking bear who summons more bears". Sure, that's not the only thing they can do but the spellcasting bears ain't got stopping, not easily. As for clerics, they have spells to allow them to be better fighters than the actual fighters. While still being able to cast more spells. Hey, the wizards can do the same. They don't usually need to, but they can. What they are more likely to do is cast a spell that allows them to be GMs. That's not a big exaggeration, either - they have spells that let them directly say "this is what happens". At some of them allow a roll for save. By using metamagic, the casters can effectively be unencumbered by the vancian spellcasting, they can even use spells to do the same. They can, in fact, cast spells that make other spells completely free - summon and bind a genie (or whatever race it was) and order it to cast Wish instead of you. This way you're not hit by the XP cost of it[footnote]The Wish spell can, more or less, do anything. In fact, it's description is of what it cannot accomplish. It's not a long description. Casting it costs, I believe, 5000 XP or at least an amount of XP.[/footnote].

Heck, the tier system [http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7it8uqgn2abeu2m3sadul71g71&topic=5293] exists - it classes the character classes by the amount of power they have. The entire tier 1 consists of spellcasters. It's tier 3 where non pure spellcasters start to appear...and those aren't even core classes - duskblade, crusader, etc. The core non-spellcasting classes show up at tiers 4 and 5. There are 6 Tiers in total, if we don't count the truenamer class which has a special place below the entire tier system.
 

Norrdicus

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I always love a good mechanics rant, buuuuut...

What was your point, at least relating to PoE? That "Per rest" restrictions are sucky at balancing and will always suck?
 

hybridial

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Yeah, whilst I get some of Do Po's points most of them really don't even pertain to Baldur's Gate and IWD vs PoE. When it comes to playing Pen & Paper role playing I'm not even really into it and prefer other games.

But we're talking about the videogames and I'm still not remotely convinced PoE's mechanics offer any advantages as well, you still gotta rest to get back the major spells, if you run out of tents to rest you're just gonna have to traipse back to a town to buy more if you wind up running out costing more time.

You don't have to rest that much in the older games if you're intelligent about how you use spells and items, and battles in it are a bit more interesting than PoE because of there not being disengagement attacks because you can choose if a battle is not going your way, to change your battle formation, to change who you have fighting who. Trying that in PoE will make you dead. now I realise that it adds another layer of strategy and some classes are designed to force multiple engagement so you have options open but... I'm still not really seeing much point in it.
 

DoPo

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Norrdicus said:
I always love a good mechanics rant, buuuuut...

What was your point, at least relating to PoE? That "Per rest" restrictions are sucky at balancing and will always suck?
You'd notice I've not said that. I mean, I've only ever talked about D&D, so I don't know why you decided to draw this idea from what I said.

I've yet to play Pillars of Eternity, but I know there is money cost associated with the rest. I don't know if that's significant or not, but it's one way of balancing things out. In, say, Neverwinter Nights, however, you don't have that cost - you can rest pretty much any time between fights and thus the entire system is just baffling - there is little reason not to you do rest, if it takes almost no effort or isn't any sort or penalty.

But while I don't think that "it's always bad, never to be used", I'd prefer it if D&D stopped being so...mimicked. It's overall a bad system for video game format. The fact that so many copies and derivatives of it and parts of it exist is a bit tiring and bothersome.

Pillars of Eternity actually takes a page from D&D 4e for some things which is...amusing and ironic on multiple levels. Again, I've yet to play it, so I've yet to see how well it does, however, from the surface here are a some things it does take from there:

- per encounter abilities - a really good concept, IMO, as it allows cool stuff to happen without needing to rest and without giving too much power to the PCs
- the fighter classes also get powers - this has been a really big flaw in D&D related to what I've described above.
- health and endurance - OK, there is no such mechanic in 4e, however, the healing surges and temporary hit points do serve this role - making "in-fight HP" to not be equivalent of "total HP". Actually, health/endurance is smoother, and I really dig that system, but still - it's not a totally new idea. It's good implementation of it, nonetheless.
- paladins not necessarily being Lawful Good

Overall, from what I've seen the system takes cues from both older D&D editions and meshes them with 4e for some patches. But I think it's a bit odd, since the older D&D stuff didn't need to be there, not in the form that would require 4e patches. It's also a somewhat heavier on some pre 4e ideas which saddens me a bit.
 

Norrdicus

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DoPo said:
Norrdicus said:
I always love a good mechanics rant, buuuuut...

What was your point, at least relating to PoE? That "Per rest" restrictions are sucky at balancing and will always suck?
You'd notice I've not said that. I mean, I've only ever talked about D&D, so I don't know why you decided to draw this idea from what I said.
Well then that post is quite off-topic then, isn't it?

DoPo said:
I've yet to play Pillars of Eternity, but I know there is money cost associated with the rest. I don't know if that's significant or not, but it's one way of balancing things out. In, say, Neverwinter Nights, however, you don't have that cost - you can rest pretty much any time between fights and thus the entire system is just baffling - there is little reason not to you do rest, if it takes almost no effort or isn't any sort or penalty.
Unfortunately the cost relating to resting isn't all that significant after first few hours, especially since sleeping in the Common Room of an inn is free. I'd like it more if sleeping in common room gave you the Minor Fatigue penalty at least to discourage that.

DoPo said:
But while I don't think that "it's always bad, never to be used", I'd prefer it if D&D stopped being so...mimicked. It's overall a bad system for video game format. The fact that so many copies and derivatives of it and parts of it exist is a bit tiring and bothersome.
Maybe the reason for mimicking D&D so much is simple "because Baldur's Gate, guys", or Josh Sawyer being in love with Vancian mages and wanting to make them work. Parts of it I like, but the way how the game straight up rips most of the Wizard spell selection spells from D&D admittedly feels a little awkward.

DoPo said:
- health and endurance - OK, there is no such mechanic in 4e, however, the healing surges and temporary hit points do serve this role - making "in-fight HP" to not be equivalent of "total HP". Actually, health/endurance is smoother, and I really dig that system, but still - it's not a totally new idea. It's good implementation of it, nonetheless.
The health&endurance thing also makes heals not as viable for lengthening your time between rests, as it is useful for surviving the fight happening this very instance. With healing spells you're basically just spending your reserve Health early to keep a guy from getting knocked out.

It's a nice system. Heavy armor giving straight up Damage Reduction rather than diceroll dependant stuff like AC makes you less likely to get slowly poked to death over long period of time, and melee classes that are meant to get hit for a lot of damage constantly due to their quicker lightly armored nature, like Monk and Barbarian, have 6x times their Endurance in total Health, while Wizards and Priests get 3x. Your Barbarian getting knocked out quickly in a fight doesn't mean the end of the world, but a Wizard, no matter how much Constitution, just lost >33% of their total health if they got knocked out.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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I probably sort of know the answer to this but...

I really wanted to like Baldurs Gate, but I just couldn't get into it, micro managing the party in combat could get really tiresome and the interesting story parts were too stretched out to keep me going through the combat. I really like the idea of this, it looks like something that I really want to like, I've seen people play the first couple of hours, but I get the feeling it's going to be pretty much the same as BG, the actuality of the game just not working for me. So people who've played both, are they that similar? Because it really looks like they are. But I really want to like it.
 

hybridial

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Zykon TheLich said:
I probably sort of know the answer to this but...

I really wanted to like Baldurs Gate, but I just couldn't get into it, micro managing the party in combat could get really tiresome and the interesting story parts were too stretched out to keep me going through the combat. I really like the idea of this, it looks like something that I really want to like, I've seen people play the first couple of hours, but I get the feeling it's going to be pretty much the same as BG, the actuality of the game just not working for me. So people who've played both, are they that similar? Because it really looks like they are. But I really want to like it.
I only played the Beta myself, but my view of it kinda of the micromanagement is way worse in Pillars. It's not even due to the lack of party AI, it's the fact even fighters need maintenance during combat, whereas in BG fighters would basically be left to do their thing, as buffing them before combat is much more optimal.

That's why scouting with a thief is so useful; it provides a non meta way for you to see what you're dealing with and prepare for it beforehand. Pillars has scout as well and it's somewhat handy too, but not to the same extent.

But in BG I feel when you know what's ahead and you set up a strategy, you can usually win the fight off of your first set of commands and just watch the battle play out. The exceptions to that are major boss fights but that makes sense. But killing mooks is not particularly taxing in BG, compared to PoE which seems worse in every regard to me.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Zykon TheLich said:
So people who've played both, are they that similar?
Yes. They're extremely similar. PoE enjoys benefits such as more voice acting, modern resolutions and a cleaner mouse driven interface. It is, however, a mild evolutionary step for the formula first established in Infinity Engine games such as Baldur's Gate.

It also starts out quite combat heavy. This quiets down when you get to Defiance Bay and you get more of a blend of dialogue, non-combat quests and action, but the first 5-6 hours of game are a bloodbath. You can't walk ten feet through some areas without coming across another clutch of monsters milling about in a forest glade.
 

DoPo

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Norrdicus said:
DoPo said:
Norrdicus said:
I always love a good mechanics rant, buuuuut...

What was your point, at least relating to PoE? That "Per rest" restrictions are sucky at balancing and will always suck?
You'd notice I've not said that. I mean, I've only ever talked about D&D, so I don't know why you decided to draw this idea from what I said.
Well then that post is quite off-topic then, isn't it?
No. For a game that takes so much from it, discussing the flaws of D&D is relevant, as it also maps to mechanics employed by Pillars of Eternity. Since not everybody is aware of these, giving some background would make people able to understand why some design choices were made.

Norrdicus said:
DoPo said:
But while I don't think that "it's always bad, never to be used", I'd prefer it if D&D stopped being so...mimicked. It's overall a bad system for video game format. The fact that so many copies and derivatives of it and parts of it exist is a bit tiring and bothersome.
Maybe the reason for mimicking D&D so much is simple "because Baldur's Gate, guys", or Josh Sawyer being in love with Vancian mages and wanting to make them work.
I wasn't talking about this game borrowing from D&D - but all the games that do.

Norrdicus said:
DoPo said:
- health and endurance - OK, there is no such mechanic in 4e, however, the healing surges and temporary hit points do serve this role - making "in-fight HP" to not be equivalent of "total HP". Actually, health/endurance is smoother, and I really dig that system, but still - it's not a totally new idea. It's good implementation of it, nonetheless.
The health&endurance thing also makes heals not as viable for lengthening your time between rests, as it is useful for surviving the fight happening this very instance. With healing spells you're basically just spending your reserve Health early to keep a guy from getting knocked out.

It's a nice system. Heavy armor giving straight up Damage Reduction rather than diceroll dependant stuff like AC makes you less likely to get slowly poked to death over long period of time, and melee classes that are meant to get hit for a lot of damage constantly due to their quicker lightly armored nature, like Monk and Barbarian, have 6x times their Endurance in total Health, while Wizards and Priests get 3x. Your Barbarian getting knocked out quickly in a fight doesn't mean the end of the world, but a Wizard, no matter how much Constitution, just lost >33% of their total health if they got knocked out.
I wouldn't claim it's perfectly executed indeed the different rations between health and endurance do sort of make it a bit invalidate the point behind it, but not entirely. It depends on how it actually behaves in-game, which, again, I've no experience with but on paper it's quite an elegant system, in fact - it means you don't need to enter a battle with, say, half health, but you also can't really keep fighting all the time.
 

Don Incognito

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DoPo said:
InvisibleJim said:
censorscuming
What does this mean?
Well you see because Obsidian changed a poem that has no effect on the game whatsoever, that you have to go hunting for to even find, and was changed with the blessing of the original backer/author, they are therefore guilty of the Greatest Sin Of Our Or Any Other Time: CENSORSHIP. And are therefore scum. Censorscuming.

Or so I presume.
 

hybridial

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Don Incognito said:
DoPo said:
InvisibleJim said:
censorscuming
What does this mean?
Well you see because Obsidian changed a poem that has no effect on the game whatsoever, that you have to go hunting for to even find, and was changed with the blessing of the original backer/author, they are therefore guilty of the Greatest Sin Of Our Or Any Other Time: CENSORSHIP. And are therefore scum. Censorscuming.

Or so I presume.
Didn't stop someone from finding it offensive and complaining about it. Didn't stop Obsidian bending over backwards to appease them for no real reason.
 

Don Incognito

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hybridial said:
Don Incognito said:
DoPo said:
InvisibleJim said:
censorscuming
What does this mean?
Well you see because Obsidian changed a poem that has no effect on the game whatsoever, that you have to go hunting for to even find, and was changed with the blessing of the original backer/author, they are therefore guilty of the Greatest Sin Of Our Or Any Other Time: CENSORSHIP. And are therefore scum. Censorscuming.

Or so I presume.
Didn't stop someone from finding it offensive and complaining about it. Didn't stop Obsidian bending over backwards to appease them for no real reason.
And?

It is their product, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. They made a business decision to change it. That is their right. It sure as shit isn't censorship. Anyone with a lick of sense doesn't care one way or the other what happens to the damned poem, because it isn't our goddamned business.
 

StatusNil

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Don Incognito said:
It is their product, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. They made a business decision to change it. That is their right. It sure as shit isn't censorship. Anyone with a lick of sense doesn't care one way or the other what happens to the damned poem, because it isn't our goddamned business.
Well, you could argue that it may in fact be the business of the backers who funded the game. And InvisibleJim outlined some possible ramifications of their business decision. That's business alright.
 
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hybridial said:
I only played the Beta myself, but my view of it kinda of the micromanagement SNIP

BloatedGuppy said:
Yes. They're extremely similar. PoE enjoys benefits such as SNIP
Ok, thanks for your replies. Looks like I'll have to give this one a miss. I really wanted to like Baldur's Gate but, ugh, I just couldn't.
 

DoPo

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StatusNil said:
And InvisibleJim outlined some possible ramifications of their business decision.
When? What ramifications? And why the hell did my simple question spun off into this discussion?

InvisibleJim said:
I would never make any kind of commitment to a Developer who treats their investors and customers with such disdain.
What disdain?
 

Don Incognito

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StatusNil said:
Don Incognito said:
It is their product, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. They made a business decision to change it. That is their right. It sure as shit isn't censorship. Anyone with a lick of sense doesn't care one way or the other what happens to the damned poem, because it isn't our goddamned business.
Well, you could argue that it may in fact be the business of the backers who funded the game. And InvisibleJim outlined some possible ramifications of their business decision. That's business alright.
My understanding is that they worked with the backer in question on the revision. Mr. Jim is, of course, free to vote with his wallet however he wants. But to call this censorship seems beyond silly.