Pimpin Reviews: Dragon Age Origins vs Rise of the Argonauts

Heart of Darkness

The final days of His Trolliness
Jul 1, 2009
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Pimppeter2 said:
I too divide RPGs into similar segments.

I wouldn't consider Mass Effect 2i to be an RPG in the vein of the genre, as say Dragon Age whichis a pretty much the definition of an RPG. I lump things like JRPGS, Mass Effect 2, and even games like Infamous and The Legend of Zelda into a category that is semi-separate from RPG territory. I think the main problem is that they're lumping these genre breaking games into places they don't fit.Mass Effect 2 was indeed a great game (IMO), but it was not the RPG experience of the year, and I think that effected some peoples opinion of the game.

There's nothing wrong with a static character to roleplay as. But my problem with Rise of the Argonauts is that Jason is neither of these things. He's not a blank slate, because the game doesn't offer any options to mold him into either side. I think that the game would have been the type to benefit from a morality bar. Jason also isn't a set character because the game simply doesn't devolve into character development enough. There's this part were you venture into the homeland of your wife, which really shows some of Jason's emotions and motivation, however the other parts of the game (85% of it) don't share the same theme. Simply, the game offered choices but they neither effected Jason nor did they make sense with the character they tried to make Jason to be. If he had been a fully fleshed out character, it would have been much easier to sympathize with him.
First off, take nothing of this as confrontational. I'm not trying to be that, but rather trying to engage in a conversation. Admittedly not the best place for it, but eh. I've derailed threads worse in the past.

You do need to clarify what "similar" segments mean, as I only gave my categories, not my subcategories of RPGs; namely, action, turn-based, pen-and-paper, tactical, and sandbox/open-world. Mass Effect seems like something that would fall into action RPG territory (but I haven't played the games in the franchise, so I can't say for certain). It's still technically an RPG, but maybe not in the same vein as Dragon Age: Origins or something like The Elder Scrolls franchise. Doesn't mean it's not an RPG, but rather that it takes the RPG perspective from a different angle.

And while I can see why you have problems with Rise of the Argonauts in terms of the main character, it seems like you dismiss the game from the RPG category for two petty reasons: lack of loot and lack of a morality system. Lack of loot isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is instead more realistic; why can you only harvest venom from certain specimens of poisonous spiders and and not others, and why is this dire wolf dropping gold and lockpicks? And while I can see why you have issues with RotA's morality system (with an implemented base but lack of influence on either character or story), it doesn't necessarily make it any less of an RPG; sometimes, perceived growth is enough to role-play.*

There's also the fact that not every game needs a morality system, and that morality systems are simply much, much too complex to actually work in anything other than pen-and-paper RPGs (Dragon Age: Origins circumvents the problem rather than solves it from what I've played of it, so meh). And, as an aside, I wouldn't go so far at to say that Dragon Age: Origins as the singular definition, just a high example, right down to the cliches.

[sub]*Either way, your opinions on why Rise of the Argonauts isn't an RPG actually creates a retroactive contradiction with one of your previous reviews. It's not important to the overall conversation, but it'd be nice if you can clear a few things up for me.[/sub]
 

Pimppeter2

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Dec 31, 2008
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Heart of Darkness said:
Pimppeter2 said:
I too divide RPGs into similar segments.

I wouldn't consider Mass Effect 2i to be an RPG in the vein of the genre, as say Dragon Age whichis a pretty much the definition of an RPG. I lump things like JRPGS, Mass Effect 2, and even games like Infamous and The Legend of Zelda into a category that is semi-separate from RPG territory. I think the main problem is that they're lumping these genre breaking games into places they don't fit.Mass Effect 2 was indeed a great game (IMO), but it was not the RPG experience of the year, and I think that effected some peoples opinion of the game.

There's nothing wrong with a static character to roleplay as. But my problem with Rise of the Argonauts is that Jason is neither of these things. He's not a blank slate, because the game doesn't offer any options to mold him into either side. I think that the game would have been the type to benefit from a morality bar. Jason also isn't a set character because the game simply doesn't devolve into character development enough. There's this part were you venture into the homeland of your wife, which really shows some of Jason's emotions and motivation, however the other parts of the game (85% of it) don't share the same theme. Simply, the game offered choices but they neither effected Jason nor did they make sense with the character they tried to make Jason to be. If he had been a fully fleshed out character, it would have been much easier to sympathize with him.
First off, take nothing of this as confrontational. I'm not trying to be that, but rather trying to engage in a conversation. Admittedly not the best place for it, but eh. I've derailed threads worse in the past.

You do need to clarify what "similar" segments mean, as I only gave my categories, not my subcategories of RPGs; namely, action, turn-based, pen-and-paper, tactical, and sandbox/open-world. Mass Effect seems like something that would fall into action RPG territory (but I haven't played the games in the franchise, so I can't say for certain). It's still technically an RPG, but maybe not in the same vein as Dragon Age: Origins or something like The Elder Scrolls franchise. Doesn't mean it's not an RPG, but rather that it takes the RPG perspective from a different angle.

And while I can see why you have problems with Rise of the Argonauts in terms of the main character, it seems like you dismiss the game from the RPG category for two petty reasons: lack of loot and lack of a morality system. Lack of loot isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is instead more realistic; why can you only harvest venom from certain specimens of poisonous spiders and and not others, and why is this dire wolf dropping gold and lockpicks? And while I can see why you have issues with RotA's morality system (with an implemented base but lack of influence on either character or story), it doesn't necessarily make it any less of an RPG; sometimes, perceived growth is enough to role-play.*

There's also the fact that not every game needs a morality system, and that morality systems are simply much, much too complex to actually work in anything other than pen-and-paper RPGs (Dragon Age: Origins circumvents the problem rather than solves it from what I've played of it, so meh). And, as an aside, I wouldn't go so far at to say that Dragon Age: Origins as the singular definition, just a high example, right down to the cliches.

[sub]*Either way, your opinions on why Rise of the Argonauts isn't an RPG actually creates a retroactive contradiction with one of your previous reviews. It's not important to the overall conversation, but it'd be nice if you can clear a few things up for me.[/sub]

I think my problem with Rise of the Argonauts is the hype that I mentioned in the review. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with what Action RPGs do, but rather how RotA tries to paint itself as something akin to Dragon Age

When I mentioned loot and moral choice, its becuase those are things that allow customization. The game neither lets me roleplay as my own Jason, nor as a set character. Jason lacks any depth or value as a character as to be able to role play in his shoes. At the same time the game tries to make a customizable Jason, one that reflects me. But without loot and stuff like that, I can't have my own Jason. He's talented in each weapon just as the other, there's only like 4 armors in total, and even if I go with an Ares-like Jason, it doesn't effect the way the story progresses or the way my character acts.

I think the review you're refering to is Cleril's Haven; and I see where you're coming from. Howerver Haven doesn't paint itself as a game like Dragon Age, unlike RotA. My biggest problem with the game is that it tries to please everyone. The game could have worked as an Action RPG with cutscenes, or as an RPG like Dragon Age with a fully customizable player character.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense, if in a Study hall writing this, if I'm being unclear just tell me about it and I'll rephrase.
 

Heart of Darkness

The final days of His Trolliness
Jul 1, 2009
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Pimppeter2 said:
(>^O^)> ==> (>^x^)>
Kirby eats your posts!
Bah, your spoiler-ing of my posts prevents the quote message from appearing in my inbox. Bah.

I can see where you're coming from with this, too. Seems like whatever morality system was used in RotA was abandoned part-way through, and it's coding was never fully removed. Or maybe the developers ran out of time for it; I dunno. But yeah, from the way you describe it, it sounds like a pretty terrible RPG in those terms. Well, maybe not completely terrible, but meh. I need to review your review, and I'm not entirely on-board with doing that before my Art History class.

And that doesn't really explain why the contradiction arose in the first place, but at least you know what I'm talking about. I just find it weird that you praised that game for the same reason why you slam RotA, especially considering I thought Haven wanted to be a non-combat RPG with a moral choice system.

As for the please everyone comment, you're talking about RotA, correct? Took me a while to figure out you moved onto a new point.

ASIDE: Also, I'm not gonna post again until I post my Mother 3 review. I thought I'd have more time for this, but apparently not. Guess I know what I'm doing in my Digital Media class tonight...
 

Pimppeter2

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Dec 31, 2008
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Heart of Darkness said:
I laughed so hard at the Kirby thing
Bah I've intertwined like 3 topics and am confusing the hell out of myself.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time. Can't wait to read your review.
 

Heart of Darkness

The final days of His Trolliness
Jul 1, 2009
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Pimppeter2 said:
Heart of Darkness said:
I laughed so hard at the Kirby thing
Bah I've intertwined like 3 topics and am confusing the hell out of myself.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time. Can't wait to read your review.
Heh. Happens to all of us.

And again, no problem. My review's up now, so I'm no longer forcing myself to not post. Woo! Freedom!
 

LWS666

[Speech: 100]
Nov 5, 2009
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do the DA:O DLC next plz. i want to know weather or not to spend my precious, precious money.
 

Pimppeter2

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Dec 31, 2008
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LWS666 said:
do the DA:O DLC next plz. i want to know weather or not to spend my precious, precious money.
It'll be out later today. Promise.

joethekoeller said:
I said that? Wait I remember. I believe I called the image use excessive. Well that was just my personal philosphy on image use shining through, I don't really believe it to be any more valid than yours. And I'm not one to complain but you misspelled my name. No hard feelings it's a nightmare to the english-speaking demographic.
I'm going to be trying a format reboot soon with a different more proffessional approach on a new type of review series. Also, in my defense I was typing on my schools minilaptops, and they make me RAGGEEE. I always read it as "keller" don't know why, I think I may have confused it with 'killer' for a while. What does "koeller" stand for anyways? A last name, or some culture refrence I'm not getting?

Also, Review Wars scores gou up tonight!

Anyway, thanks for the comments guys.
 

Drake the Dragonheart

The All-American Dragon.
Aug 14, 2008
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That was long, very long! Unfortunately I am currently crunched for time, so I will give this review the full attention it deserves when I have more time, and at such this post will be edited with a proper opinion.

Ok now that I have had the chance to actually read this, I thought it was very well detailed.
As for how to make future reviews better, Heart of Darkness pretty much said anything I might say and I really doubt I could say it any better than he did.

It is funny but the conversation between Pimppeter and Heart of Darkness concerning the Jason's supporting caste reminded me of an off-kilter game I had long ago for my Sega Saturn, Herc's Adventures, in which you played as either Jason, Hercules, or Atlanta.
Keep on Pimpin, the Dragon approves!
 

sms_117b

Keeper of Brannigan's Law
Oct 4, 2007
2,880
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I wish your reviews were on the front page, means I'd know when they came around rather than being lucky in the recently posted feed.

Enjoyed reading through the whole comparison, as per usual. I look forward to reading whatever you release next.

PS. If the NCIS in your upcoming section is the TV show with Gibbs on TV, please do that next.
 

IanBrazen

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Oct 17, 2008
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Great review as always pimp. could dragon age become your new elder scrolls?

I love dragon age in every single way...except for the combat, the combat to me is almost too simple and almost reminds me of turn baised combat without the turns.

RotA seemed really interesting at first, but it got mediocre reviews so I passed it up, I think Ill try it out though.
Pimppeter2 said:
I still argue Oblivion still has the best companions
When did I miss that companion?
I just got some damn Ork who wanted to be a knight.