Piracy and TV shows

[Sp3ratus]

Alright, so I know that the Escapist frowns upon this and that it can't really be justified, but I've been thinking about this for a while. Most movies are shown in theaters around the same time and released on DVD and Blu-ray around the same time. The same with games, at least that's the case for Europe and US, I've heard it's a little different for Australia.

Anyway, the above is most certainly not the case with TV shows and I can't, and it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you wan't to watch a TV show legally in Europe, you first have to hope that the show is picked up by a network in your country, which mostly only happens to the most popular show. By the time that happens, for the most part, it's a while after the original air date in the US. This is really frustrating as it's hard to get excited about a show you read about online, knowing that it may or may not be picked up some time in the future.

The only other thing to do is wait for the show to be available on iTunes for an example, but again, there's a certain waiting period and again, not all shows will be there. I don't know if there are any rules or anything preventing the shows from being shown simoultaniously or a day or two after in Europe, but I know that FX for an example have launched several channels for different European countries, though not in Denmark, at least not for now. HBO has done something similar, but again, not in Denmark.

Also, a last point I want to raise is that when a TV show is finally picked up, at least in Denmark, it's shown on a channel most people here have access to. I know it's still not an excuse, but you could argue that when that happens, essentially you've paid to watch the show, since you're paying for the channel it's shown on. For me it's somewhat akin to recording the show, using a recorder. I don't think that's illegal, but I might be wrong?

My personal opinion is that, while it's still not legal to pirate, I can certainly see why people would do it. It seems very strange, having to wait a long time for a show that eventually might be picked up by a network in your own country, when everyone else is raving about how great that particular show might be.

Anyway, what do you think about this?

 

[ScumbagEddie]

The way I feel about piracy - It's only a crime if you profit off it. If you download it for your own personal use, who cares? In the US, the FBI piracy warning states that it is a crime to use the DVD for any other use than being the private owner. It is not a crime to backup your movies. Why would it be a crime to give a digital copy to a friend who is too poor to buy it themselves? Technically, it's not. Mainly because you're giving it away. As in, a gift.

Another way to look at it, and I have no idea how it is elsewhere, but in the US, we don't have to pay for every show we watch. Cable fees aside, it's all given freely. And they make this thing called TIVO that people can use to record new shows and then copy them over to a computer. That isn't illegal at all.

I don't truly understand the "big piracy debate" whatsoever. They state that they'll go after anyone, but if you look into it, they only ask for you not to profit from it. Doesn't make much sense.

 

[Baradiel]

I have no problem with piracy unless either the pirate or the creator of the product gains/suffers respectively.

TV shows are the least damaging piracy. So what if you've watched a programme online, instead of watching it on telly. For example, say I wanted to watch the new series of Dexter, but there is a delay of several months for it to arrive in the UK. I would watch it on TV Shack. The channel wouldn't suffer, and I wouldn't profit.

UNLIKE video game piracy. If you pirate a game, that is directly effecting the publishers revenue. If you pirate a TV show, all you effect is your rating. The channel doesn't directly lose money, it just loses an audience member.

Also, what is up with TV Shack being taken down by the US authorities? How is it their domain? The servers are in Australia, the offices are in Sweden, and I'm in the UK. Yes, there are files on there which might be protected by copyright laws, but still. If some relatively unknown country, like, say, Guatemala started brining down sites, there'd be uproar!

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

I pirated a lot back in the C64, Amiga and early PC days because it was the only way to get software. Software stores were rare, only found in big cities I rarely came to. Internet was still to come into the average home.

Then stores became more frequent, and I became more critical of what I wanted to waste time with, so affording games from that time on wasnt an issue. And with steam...oh my oh my, I really should uninstall that for the sake of spending more free time on better things.

I watch TV shows online. So I guess im still a copyright infringer (im under the impression that pirates are usually harder types than your average downloader so the term is misleading). I guess once the genuine TV channels get their act together with good online PPV services I wont bother with all the lameware associated with those kinds of sites.

 

[Anjel]

If you download it for your own personal use, who cares?

I believe the phrase used is "it is illegal to make a copy of this disc/movie" and you downloading a copy of a movie someone has uploaded is you making a copy of it and therefore illegal.

What always baffles me is if you have a TV licence so could watch True Blood (example), but choose to download it and watch it instead - is this illegal? You're copying the televised version not the DVD version. Spanner in the works would be if you have a TV licence but no satellite subscription and choose to download a televised series that would be available only on satellite channels - is this illegal?

For the record, I have never pirated a computer game or movie, and the only shows I do record onto my computer come via Windows Media Centre... so above-board as far as I know.

 

[Popido]

MLP:FiM is getting pirated to Youtube.

/thread

 

[Verlander]

There are enough online television sites (legal ones, like iplayer) to keep you happy. If television ratings go down, so does their ad revenue, and shows don't get bought, or funded. Simple chain of events.

The only thing worth downloading is something that's unavailable to get otherwise.

 

[Jonluw]

I must say I have felt that piracy may be justified if it's a tv-show that doesn't air in your country.

Say you want to watch anime: A japanese person gets to watch these shows without paying anything more than the tv-fee he pays anyways, while a Norwegian has to go to the store and hope he can find the dvd. It's rare to find the dvd you're looking for though, and when you do, the pricetags might as well have been written in blood. ($130 for half of a series? This hurts when you don't have a job or a decent allowance.)

I wish they would air anime on some Norwegian channels, but apparently animated shows are for children. *sigh*

Edit: Oh yeah, and stuff like Netflix and Hulu doesn't work here. You need to be American or British to use that kind of stuff.

 

[Ewyx]

There are enough online television sites (legal ones, like iplayer) to keep you happy. If television ratings go down, so does their ad revenue, and shows don't get bought, or funded. Simple chain of events.

Obviously you live in a country where that is actually available, for the rest of the world we just get 'not available in your area' message. Let's face it, people have problems properly monetizing their creative work, that's why piracy exists in the first place.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Obviously you live in a country where that is actually available, for the rest of the world we just get 'not available in your area' message. Let's face it, people have problems properly monetizing their creative work, that's why piracy exists in the first place.

This. Have you folks heard of Flattr?

 

[Gigano]

Legally, there's no doubt it's illegal under Danish copyright law (with compensation to the copyright right holder and potentially a fine as well as the sanctions).

Ethically, things are not so clear. Breaking a law legitimized by democracy is always to some extent wrong in and of itself, though sometimes only insignificantly so (who haven't crossed for red light as a pedestrian when no cars where in sight?).

Going by the assumption that there's no national market position for a TV show, and thus no economic interest in getting money off the Danish market, I'd say it's to some degree ethically justifiable to view it by other means, if you make sure to purchase the show first chance you get, i.e. immediately when it comes out on DVD in Europe.

...At least if there aren't any national channels airing the show; if so, then you'll reasonably have to pay up for those since a national "market position" (or at least a national economic interest) exist for the show, and you thus have a legitimate way of viewing it.

So while I'd never encourage it or say it's totally OK, I'd still hesitate to condemn anyone who viewed a TV show they had no other way of viewing, and who paid for it if they later got the chance; The law wouldn't though.

 

[Sp3ratus]

There are enough online television sites (legal ones, like iplayer) to keep you happy. If television ratings go down, so does their ad revenue, and shows don't get bought, or funded. Simple chain of events.

The only thing worth downloading is something that's unavailable to get otherwise.

That's the thing, online television sites like iPlayer and the like aren't available everywhere, at least I can't use it. Also, while I watch shows that are picked, that I'm interested in, I don't really have any control over which shows are being funded or not funded. The network payed for the TV show to be sent on their channel, but I highly doubt that the network in US knows who or how many watch one of their shows in Denmark. I also really don't have any control over which shows will be picked up and by extension showing my support for that US network that broadcasts it.

So following that logic, a given TV show is unavailable for me, I have no method of watching them, except hoping that they'll be shown on Danish TV at some unknown point in there future.

 

[Ranorak]

Lucky for me, the actual act of downloading tv showns, movies and music are LEGAL in the Netherlands.
It's still illegal to upload something. But not to download it.

South park is the ONLY show, as far as I know, that has a legal stream website.
It blocks the episodes until they have been aired on Comedy Central, and then they are free to watch on their website.

Surely Americans have this for more. But we sadly don't.

 

[ScumbagEddie]

If you download it for your own personal use, who cares?

I believe the phrase used is "it is illegal to make a copy of this disc/movie" and you downloading a copy of a movie someone has uploaded is you making a copy of it and therefore illegal.

What always baffles me is if you have a TV licence so could watch True Blood (example), but choose to download it and watch it instead - is this illegal? You're copying the televised version not the DVD version. Spanner in the works would be if you have a TV licence but no satellite subscription and choose to download a televised series that would be available only on satellite channels - is this illegal?

For the record, I have never pirated a computer game or movie, and the only shows I do record onto my computer come via Windows Media Centre... so above-board as far as I know.

You must have forgotten to look at the beginning of that paragraph where I stated "The way I feel about piracy."

Anyway, that isn't important. The fact of the matter is that technically, because there is no such warning on aired TV shows, obtaining a recorded copy that is not a DVD rip can't possibly be illegal in any way.

 

[fenrizz]

I'm not waiting 6 months (or possibly up to a year) to continue watching True Blood and other new shows.

New shows in my region (Norway) are shown much later than in the US.
Maybe they have a good reason to not let us see them right away, but I don't know.

What I do know is this:
I am not about to wait for that long to see the next episode of my favorite series.

Sorry, not going to happen.

Give me a legal alternative and we can talk.

 

[Anjel]

You must have forgotten to look at the beginning of that paragraph where I stated "The way I feel about piracy."

Anyway, that isn't important. The fact of the matter is that technically, because there is no such warning on aired TV shows, obtaining a recorded copy that is not a DVD rip can't possibly be illegal in any way.

No I didn't miss it, I was just saying how it is. Can't expect to say that you think *insert illegal activity here* is okay as long as *insert whatever stipulation here* and have no one try to counter you If no one did we'd had paedophiles, rapists and murderers here by the end of the week trying to justify their actions... okay, slight exaggeration.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well with some shows it's just no other way, especially something obscure, anime usually wont come outside Japan unless hugely successful and not too slutty(eliminating 90% off the bat).

 

[ScumbagEddie]

So, I ended up becoming horribly interested in looking into this. I found the actual definitions of criminal copyright infringement here in the US. It's horribly vague in most regards, as far as I'm concerned, and I won't change my position in the matter.

Here's what I've found...

"§ 506. Criminal offenses6

(a) Criminal Infringement. ?

(1) In general. ? Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed ?

(A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;

(B) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000; or

(C) by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.

(2) Evidence. ? For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement of a copyright.

(3) Definition. ? In this subsection, the term ?work being prepared for commercial distribution? means ?

(A) a computer program, a musical work, a motion picture or other audiovisual work, or a sound recording, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution ?

(i) the copyright owner has a reasonable expectation of commercial distribution; and

(ii) the copies or phonorecords of the work have not been commercially distributed; or

(B) a motion picture, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution, the motion picture ?

(i) has been made available for viewing in a motion picture exhibition facility; and

(ii) has not been made available in copies for sale to the general public in the United States in a format intended to permit viewing outside a motion picture exhibition facility."

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

 

[ScumbagEddie]

You must have forgotten to look at the beginning of that paragraph where I stated "The way I feel about piracy."

Anyway, that isn't important. The fact of the matter is that technically, because there is no such warning on aired TV shows, obtaining a recorded copy that is not a DVD rip can't possibly be illegal in any way.

No I didn't miss it, I was just saying how it is. Can't expect to say that you think *insert illegal activity here* is okay as long as *insert whatever stipulation here* and have no one try to counter you If no one did we'd had paedophiles, rapists and murderers here by the end of the week trying to justify their actions... okay, slight exaggeration.

Haha. Wicked exaggeration, friend Realistically, you brought in a whole different class of offense into the matter. And though I won't ever defend a pedo or rapist, I know for a fact people get let off for those heinous acts every day, which is a billion times more disturbing than you wanting to not wait for the DVD release of anything.
Further research and reflection on the matter really makes me realize how ridiculous the whole piracy debate is. It all seems to boil down to one reason most people seem to hate the States. Capitalism
Sad really

 

[Vibhor]

Don't you see TV shows for free?
Wouldn't that make them watching for free on the computer legal too.
Also, how the heck would piracy affect television?