Piracy encourages innovation?

[Anah'ya]

No, Tipsy Giant is right. If you're pirating something, you never intended to buy and there never was a potential sale. It's all on your conscience. There is a potential sale being lost in case someone buys a used copy or rents/borrows a game, thus giving the money to the retailer (boom, sale lost!) and then pirating taking the game/software without a single cent money unit going to the publisher. And there's even no conscience involved - he paid! - hell, he might not even know he got a used copy. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Besides, the developers already got their paychecks. It's the investors who are at risk of not getting their money back. Naturally, it isn't as black and white for indie and small developer crowd, but the "market" there is smaller, prices are lower and piracy risk is thus (theoretically) reduced, which is what the thread originally addressed.

*sighs*

Fine.

You lot win.

Everything will be fine. People should continue to take things and claim ownership/entitlement to products for free. There is nothing on the line. In fact, why don't I just support this Software company that I am working for for free or a huge cut in the pay? I mean, it's not like I'll need the money, I can just take all the entertainment I want and not bother with paying for it. And while I'm at it I will write this novel here and then publish it into the hands of the masses for free as well. Not like my time is worth jack, eh?

Yeh.

Sounds good.

*shakes her head and leaves*

 

[JaymesFogarty]

No, Tipsy Giant is right. If you're pirating something, you never intended to buy and there never was a potential sale. It's all on your conscience. There is a potential sale being lost in case someone buys a used copy or rents/borrows a game, thus giving the money to the retailer (boom, sale lost!) and then pirating taking the game/software without a single cent money unit going to the publisher. And there's even no conscience involved - he paid! - hell, he might not even know he got a used copy. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Besides, the developers already got their paychecks. It's the investors who are at risk of not getting their money back. Naturally, it isn't as black and white for indie and small developer crowd, but the "market" there is smaller, prices are lower and piracy risk is thus (theoretically) reduced, which is what the thread originally addressed.

*sighs*

Fine.

You lot win.

Everything will be fine. People should continue to take things and claim ownership/entitlement to products for free. There is nothing on the line. In fact, why don't I just support this Software company that I am working for free? I mean, it's not like I'll the money, I can just take all the entertainment I want and not bother with paying for it. And while I'm at it I will write this novel here and then publish it into the hands of the masses for free as well. Not like my time is worth jack, eh?

Yeh.

Sounds good.

*shakes her head and leaves*

Anah'ya, I completely agree with you! Whether it's an author writing a book, a musician recording a song, or a developer making a game, they all deserve to see the fruits of their labour. Denying them that right is completely wrong.
Plus, if you can afford to pay for a decent internet connection, and buy an up-to-date computer, (several hundreds of pounds right there) I don't see how suddenly you have no money to purchase games.

 

[Arehexes]

every reason for piracy is bullshit see how that works , people who buy everything feels like we should all buy stuff so they don't feel cheated.

 

[Arehexes]

also is piracy is a issue how come activision lost two of it's big CoD devs, I doubt it was because of piracy (contract breach).

 

[meglathon]

maybe, but it still a slipery slope

 

[Anah'ya]

No one has a "right" to sell anything just because they made something. It's always up to the consumer (except in cases where laws force people to buy a product) to decide if something is worth purchasing.

I agree! That's why I don't buy sports games, racing games or kids games. I also don't buy Austrian folk music and I stay very far away from spending money for romantic comedies on the screen. I also don't watch or play these things.

... so. Err.

Your point being?

 

[Coldie]

Everything will be fine. People should continue to take things and claim ownership/entitlement to products for free. There is nothing on the line. In fact, why don't I just support this Software company that I am working for free? I mean, it's not like I'll the money, I can just take all the entertainment I want and not bother with paying for it. And while I'm at it I will write this novel here and then publish it into the hands of the masses for free as well. Not like my time is worth jack, eh?

Whether or not they should is hardly relevant. People will still buy your game and people will pirate your game, no matter what. You can't stop either of those factions, so you have to take them into account and encourage people to buy your game and support you. The market is fast and harsh, so if the "buy" camp isn't big enough, you have failed and possibly bankrupted. Make a better game next time, or use "better" DRM. Your best bet in the 21st century? Be Blizzard or Valve.

 

[Pipotchi]

I am too poor to buy movies music and games, I pirate, if anyone thinks that means I shouldn't get to experience the media at no cost to anyone, you only believe so because you want to have what others don't and that is due to your weirdly small member!

What have you heard about my member?

This has to be the worst pro-pirate argument i have ever heard. People who buy games legitimately are snobbing you? It's such a sound argument I can't believe the pirate party hasn't adopted it as a slogan. Do you know how much a game cost? On average $60 brand spanking new... if you saved 2 dollars everyday for a month you could buy that game brand spanking new... or you could wait several months and buy it for significantly cheaper.

No sir! I say it is you pirates who are snobs, you put your fingers in everything and play it until you are bored with it, promising to purchase it if its good, and then cast it away and pirate another game because even though you love that game, and you played 150 hours of it, it still wasn't good enough for you to save up some money to buy it, even at a discount.

Plus I don't know how poor you are if you have a computer that can play the games that come out now, and can afford to pay for an internet subscription, but golly jee willikers... your wallet just happens to be empty when you visit a torrenting site.

And you OP, piracy does not encourage innovation, it encourages more piracy and lost profits. Loss of profits = less risk taking by developers. Less Risk on New IP's seems like exactly the opposite no?

This poster said everything I was going to and much more eloquently.

The "I cant afford it so no-one is losing out" arguement is utter twaddle. I cant afford to eat at Michelin Starred restaurant every night but that doesnt give me the right to run in off the street and steal their stuff.

Try saving up your money and then buying it, this culture of instant gratification is half the reason the Western Worlds economy is in the crapper

 

[Eponet]

Could everyone please stop arguing amongst themselves?

 

[Flying Dagger]

To be perfectly honest, there are certain groups - notably children between the ages of 14 and 18 who I have absolutely no problem with pirating. (and to a lesser extent university students and the unemployed)

Want to know why I have no problem with them pirating? It's because they were never exactly big spenders. Most children that age have absolutely no money, and what little they do they want to spend on other things.
As long as these people, once they start earning money, put down the cash on games, I see no problem with it whatsoever.

If kids of that age don't get interested in gaming, there won't be an industry by the time they have the money to pay for it, just like football teams give out free tickets to children, and world book days give out free books, I see it as taking one for the team, ensuring that when they have the money, they spend it on games.

it's a direct parallel to other industries where the scenario works.

Don't lump all the people pirating games into the same bag.

 

[Owlslayer]

Jesus Christ, what's with all these pirating threads? Can't people see that this material is flame-bait?

This is a topic that shouldn't really be at the Escapist. It brings out the not-so-nice side of the usually polite members.
Anyways, I'm not really seeing how piracy could encourage innovation...
Except, maybe by making things like DRM, only...more innovative? Eh, don't quote me on that. Don't quote me at all.

 

[Something Amyss]

Looking at it, it seems as though piracy actually discourages mass market appeal, and instead encourages more experimental, niche titles. Looking though it, it seems to make some sort of sense, but it just feels wrong.

It is wrong.

If that were the case, the market would play out differently. We'd see a decline in safe titles. Big budget productions would be virtually non-existent. Games like Civ or Starcraft would not have significant reason to come out. A good test is whether these games exist and sell well. They do, so this apparent leveling of the playing field does not exist.

Piracy tends to lead to innovation in fighting piracy, which tends to lead to innovating in piracy. It does not reward artistic innovation or technical innovation, nor does it particularly change the way the overall business goes. Even the "punishment" phase is largely superfluous, since there's no real way to track lost sales.

But even as "piracy is on the rise," are we seeing an influx of new, clever titles from the major companies? Or are we seeing the same old, packaged in slightly better definitions? In fact, aren't we seeing more releases that are buggy and/or incomplete from major studios? Shorter titles? Fewer risks being taken?

 

[Tipsy Giant]

I am borrowing it, off of the net

OK SMALL COMPLAINT TIME

Fine you don't like piracy, you are rich I get it, but can you ALL stop using "This guy steals physical object" as an example, Pirates aren't going to shops and stealing the games, they download them without anyone losing anything, the only loss is if the person would have bought the full version anyway and considering that most that download would maybe at best buy the game used, no money for the developer there either, you can stop worrying about sales. For an industry losing to pirates it's strange that MW2 could still sell more than anything ever, not really the sign of a struggling industry

Come back to me with that argument after you wrote a book, made a game, did a movie, wrote and performed a song (in any capacity involved, be it the guy that mops the floor of the studio or the person actually programming/coding/writing/singing/filming) and have done so for free.

...

Seriously.

I don't get you pro-piracy folks. Do you seriously believe you would be fine working for free? I fucking well wouldn't want to sit my hours in an office working for jack. I need money to survive and so does every single person involved in the creation process of the media that you skimp, thus potentially deducting money from their paycheck. Just because the CEOs of big companies are filthy rich doesn't mean the people that put out the labor won't be effected by your greedy attitude of "I WANT TO HAVE IT BUT I REFUSE TO PAY".

I'm so glad that was your response, I actually am recording an album that will be free to download, so when it is available i'll let you know

 

[Tipsy Giant]

I am too poor to buy movies music and games, I pirate, if anyone thinks that means I shouldn't get to experience the media at no cost to anyone, you only believe so because you want to have what others don't and that is due to your weirdly small member!

What have you heard about my member?

This has to be the worst pro-pirate argument i have ever heard. People who buy games legitimately are snobbing you? It's such a sound argument I can't believe the pirate party hasn't adopted it as a slogan. Do you know how much a game cost? On average $60 brand spanking new... if you saved 2 dollars everyday for a month you could buy that game brand spanking new... or you could wait several months and buy it for significantly cheaper.

No sir! I say it is you pirates who are snobs, you put your fingers in everything and play it until you are bored with it, promising to purchase it if its good, and then cast it away and pirate another game because even though you love that game, and you played 150 hours of it, it still wasn't good enough for you to save up some money to buy it, even at a discount.

Plus I don't know how poor you are if you have a computer that can play the games that come out now, and can afford to pay for an internet subscription, but golly jee willikers... your wallet just happens to be empty when you visit a torrenting site.

And you OP, piracy does not encourage innovation, it encourages more piracy and lost profits. Loss of profits = less risk taking by developers. Less Risk on New IP's seems like exactly the opposite no?

This poster said everything I was going to and much more eloquently.

The "I cant afford it so no-one is losing out" arguement is utter twaddle. I cant afford to eat at Michelin Starred restaurant every night but that doesnt give me the right to run in off the street and steal their stuff.

Try saving up your money and then buying it, this culture of instant gratification is half the reason the Western Worlds economy is in the crapper

But in your example the restaurant lose something physical when you steal whereas with digital distribution you can only argue that they may have lost money if you were to have bought it instead

 

[Tipsy Giant]

But if I steal that car the dude whos car it is doesn't have a car anymore, if I torrent a movie for example, who finds out? I always go to the cinema to watch movies i'm excited about but if it just came out online and isn't available another way and I wanna see it, whos to stop me?

The car doesn't belong to anyway except BMW, it just came of the shop floor. They miss out on the profit they are entitled to for the work they put into designing and building that car. Its no different then pirating a movie or game, the developers and production crew put a great deal of time and effort into these creations not just so some schmuck and come along and steal their work. Having put in the time and effort it is their right to receive the profits from it, it is not your right to play or watch it.

I completely agree! If anyone should make money of of their creation it should be them, however, If I choose to download it for free and try it out, if I enjoy the game and then buy some of the studios older games, if I then look into their next project and save up for it.... That is the real pirates at work, trying something usually leads to buying something

 

[loremazd]

No, Tipsy Giant is right. If you're pirating something, you never intended to buy and there never was a potential sale. It's all on your conscience. There is a potential sale being lost in case someone buys a used copy or rents/borrows a game, thus giving the money to the retailer (boom, sale lost!) and then pirating taking the game/software without a single cent money unit going to the publisher. And there's even no conscience involved - he paid! - hell, he might not even know he got a used copy. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Besides, the developers already got their paychecks. It's the investors who are at risk of not getting their money back. Naturally, it isn't as black and white for indie and small developer crowd, but the "market" there is smaller, prices are lower and piracy risk is thus (theoretically) reduced, which is what the thread originally addressed.

*sighs*

Fine.

You lot win.

Everything will be fine. People should continue to take things and claim ownership/entitlement to products for free. There is nothing on the line. In fact, why don't I just support this Software company that I am working for free? I mean, it's not like I'll the money, I can just take all the entertainment I want and not bother with paying for it. And while I'm at it I will write this novel here and then publish it into the hands of the masses for free as well. Not like my time is worth jack, eh?

Yeh.

Sounds good.

*shakes her head and leaves*

Anah'ya, I completely agree with you! Whether it's an author writing a book, a musician recording a song, or a developer making a game, they all deserve to see the fruits of their labour. Denying them that right is completely wrong.
Plus, if you can afford to pay for a decent internet connection, and buy an up-to-date computer, (several hundreds of pounds right there) I don't see how suddenly you have no money to purchase games.

No one has a "right" to sell anything just because they made something. It's always up to the consumer (except in cases where laws force people to buy a product) to decide if something is worth purchasing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You have the right to sell anything you make, sure people may or may not buy it, but et me break this down to you, while you may not agree on the specific price it's being sold at, If you use it the one who made it does have the right to your money. More than that, the law is on their side if they ever decide to sue you. Given legal costs it's unlikely, but the law is firmly on their side.

 

[loremazd]

But if I steal that car the dude whos car it is doesn't have a car anymore, if I torrent a movie for example, who finds out? I always go to the cinema to watch movies i'm excited about but if it just came out online and isn't available another way and I wanna see it, whos to stop me?

The car doesn't belong to anyway except BMW, it just came of the shop floor. They miss out on the profit they are entitled to for the work they put into designing and building that car. Its no different then pirating a movie or game, the developers and production crew put a great deal of time and effort into these creations not just so some schmuck and come along and steal their work. Having put in the time and effort it is their right to receive the profits from it, it is not your right to play or watch it.

I completely agree! If anyone should make money of of their creation it should be them, however, If I choose to download it for free and try it out, if I enjoy the game and then buy some of the studios older games, if I then look into their next project and save up for it.... That is the real pirates at work, trying something usually leads to buying something

There is no such thing as a real pirate or a fake pirate. They are all pirates and they're each individuals with different moral standards.

-most- pirates aren't noble dogooders with illusions of changing the industy, they're media hoarders. They realised they can shoplift without getting caught and are going on a spree.

 

[GeneticallyModifiedDucks]

Edit: Mispost. Don't mind me.

 

[The Hairminator]

Everything will be fine. People should continue to take things and claim ownership/entitlement to products for free. There is nothing on the line. In fact, why don't I just support this Software company that I am working for free? I mean, it's not like I'll the money, I can just take all the entertainment I want and not bother with paying for it. And while I'm at it I will write this novel here and then publish it into the hands of the masses for free as well. Not like my time is worth jack, eh?

Whether or not they should is hardly relevant. People will still buy your game and people will pirate your game, no matter what. You can't stop either of those factions, so you have to take them into account and encourage people to buy your game and support you. The market is fast and harsh, so if the "buy" camp isn't big enough, you have failed and possibly bankrupted. Make a better game next time, or use "better" DRM. Your best bet in the 21st century? Be Blizzard or Valve.

You're missing the point. The point is that there shouldn't have to be any annoying DRMs, because people shouldn't pirate. It has nothing to do with what the situation looks like, it's about what it should look like, wether it be realistic due to human nature (or otherwise) or not.

I'm so glad that was your response, I actually am recording an album that will be free to download, so when it is available i'll let you know

I still have a feeling that if music was your only income, and you felt that your music was good enough to make money from, you would.

 

[TheComedown]

I completely agree! If anyone should make money of of their creation it should be them, however, If I choose to download it for free and try it out, if I enjoy the game and then buy some of the studios older games, if I then look into their next project and save up for it.... That is the real pirates at work, trying something usually leads to buying something

No. No it doesn't. Have a look at aPods said again.

No sir! I say it is you pirates who are snobs, you put your fingers in everything and play it until you are bored with it, promising to purchase it if its good, and then cast it away and pirate another game because even though you love that game, and you played 150 hours of it, it still wasn't good enough for you to save up some money to buy it, even at a discount.

He is right, you all say this, but never follow through, the game is never worth it no matter how good you think the game or the dev may be. Stop lying to yourselves. Name one situation where you pirated a game then bought it or another game from the same developer? Cause I assure you while you all think this is what you do, none (if not, a tiny minority) actually do.

Wait what? "That is the real pirates at work"? So real pirates aren't actually all about me me me, pillage and steal? It's all about try before you buy? That doesn't make any sense, if it were measurable on a scale those that "try before you buy" and actually follow though on the buy part would be less of a pirate.