Piracy staying legal in Switzerland - "Pirates still contribute"

Firia

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I'm trying to think of this in the context of things like DRM; DRM is something that stops me from purchasing a product. So, I can see their point in that respect. I'm not totally for trying to control everything people do, so cheers on the swiss for that.
 

Epona

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Takuanuva said:
kman123 said:
"since people eventually spend the money saved on entertainment products."

Umm.......that's a pretty flawed statement.

I mean come on, there's absolutely NOTHING stopping them from merely stealing music, films, games and not paying. Piracy is weird.
...actually, it makes sense.
Let's say you are some average guy with average wages, from which you can afford, let's say, $50 on strictly personal uses.
Now, you're downloading mp3s from the internet without paying. You just saved some of your personal-use money. You WILL spend them sooner or later though...and one way or another, it will go into entertainment.
The person who owns rights to the music lost his money though, didn't he? Well, that's possible, but someone else gained it, maybe even him. People wouldn't spend more money than they could afford, and they sooner or later spend the money they saved on some form of entertainment. The amount of money stays the same, it's just located in diferent places, and even that isn't necesarily true, since they might spend their saved money on the goods they- more or less- stole.
...yeah...that is actually a quite good strategy...there is no point in fighting piracy, because it causes pretty much no harm on the bigger scale. Fighting it, on the other hand...
Agreed!

Piracy was always there while the industry grew from small into the abusive, consumer hating industry that it is now. Piracy hasn't changed much, for better or worse but the industry has most certainly changed for the worse. Of course, the industry blames everyone except themselves for their worsening.

Yes, piracy allows people to sample digital goods which they otherwise would not be able to afford and through that sampling will result in some extra sales. The beauty of it is, piracy is like free advertisement. It isn't like someone downloading a song from a pirate site is costing the record company distribution or advertising fees. New artists and new game studios love to get their product "out there", it's only when they get greedy that they start whining and getting abusive towards consumers. Consumers and pirates, there is some overlap.
 

Athinira

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DRes82 said:
Neither one of those statements make any sense at all. If someone can get something for free with absolutely no consequences, what the hell would be the incentive to go spend money on that same something?
I'll say it before, and I'll say it again: Consumers have five main priorities when it comes to acquiring digital entertainment and how they acquire it.

1) They want as much quality entertainment as possible...
2) ...as cheap as possible...
3) ...as fast/early as possible...
4) ...as available/convenient/safe as possible...
5) ...as morally right as possible.


When a consumer considers acquiring an entertainment product, all of the five points above play in, although obviously to a varying degree from person to person (point 5 especially varies a lot, from "doesn't give a shit" to "I won't pirate from Valve because i like them" to "Piracy is wrong").

If developers and publishers play their cards right (as in, they don't follow the Ubisoft strategy) they can beat piracy on every point except point 2, and even there they can either strongly rival it (Steam Sales, natural price drop over time) or in some cases even equal it (free2play games like Team Fortress 2 and several MMO games who realized they can't beat WoW).

The problem isn't piracy. The problem is that consumers have limited income, and since entertainment budgets/expenses have exploded while our disposable income hasn't, this has made it harder and harder for entertainment companies to break even, which means most of them are trying to outdo each other. Or in short, it's not a race to beat piracy, it's a race to beat the competition.
 

Jegsimmons

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ah Switzerland... gorgeous babes, shit tons of guns (almost as much per person as america), and free internet.

i might work on buying a second house there.


Prince Regent said:
Levethian said:
Perhaps it makes more sense in Swiss ;)
Yeah because that's a real language...

OT: So is pirating software illegal/punishablein the US? Im not really certain how the law is there. Here in the Netherlands (and in most of europe as far as I know) pirating software is legal. As borrowing a book from someone else is legal so "borrowing" software from someone is too.
i dont think its really that big of a deal unless you distribute it for profit.
 

Beryl77

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Don't know what to think about this, especially since I live in Switzerland. Digital Piracy is still fairly new compared to other forms of stealing. Maybe this will work, maybe not. It's hard to predict at the moment, what will work against piracy and what not. Only time will tell.
 

Athinira

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Beryl77 said:
Don't know what to think about this, especially since I live in Switzerland. Digital Piracy is still fairly new compared to other forms of stealing. Maybe this will work, maybe not. It's hard to predict at the moment, what will work against piracy and what not. Only time will tell.
Whether it will work against piracy or not is irrelevant, since piracy is not the cause of the economic crisis game companies are having.
 

Aris Khandr

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Maleval said:
Why do people keep calling piracy "stealing"? It's stupid really.
Last time I checked, taking something without paying for it IS stealing. Any nonsense about how you "didn't take a physical thing" and "data is infinitely copyable" is just justifying it to yourself, and a thin justification as that. Taking something without paying for it is stealing.
 

Von Strimmer

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Does this mean that the Escapist will now ban the Swiss government?

On topic: good for them? I must say I dont really care :p
 

Heaven's Guardian

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Therumancer said:
kman123 said:
"since people eventually spend the money saved on entertainment products."

Umm.......that's a pretty flawed statement.

I mean come on, there's absolutely NOTHING stopping them from merely stealing music, films, games and not paying. Piracy is weird.
You are correct.

One thing you have to understand is that there are economic concerns behind all of this. If a country like Switzerland decides to ban piracy it then has to enforce those laws, which means putting people in jail which costs money. Not to mention the damages that would be paid to the companies holding the IP which is money that leaves the swiss economy and generally winds up in the economy of the company's parent nation.

Piracy also allows them to absorb this material while not having to pay for it, which means less money leaving in generla. Claiming that the money is "eventually spent on entertainment media" as a justification is purely lulzworthy as they struggle for a justification.

This is why I have pointed out on numerous occasions that really the only way to see this kind of thing enforced, either in terms of personal use, or people violating IP/copyright laws to make money, is to push the issue with the military. The only time a nation participating in these kinds of policies is going to be advantageous is if it has as many, or more, of it's own IPs going elsewhere in the international marketplace. While I'm sure the Swiss make movies and TV shows, video games and other media, they don't produce anything close to what the US or UK does, an accurate trade arrangement based on media exchange would wind up with a lot more money leaving the Swiss economy on that front than entering it.... and really, trillions of dollars floating into say US companies based on media where the Swiss get nothing to show for it except some transient fun, is not something the goverment sees as healthy for the nation and it's independance.

Honestly, given how invested the US and some of it's allies are in the media nowadays, I have been of the opinion we do need to start making some rather bloody examples. Few countries are going to pass the kinds of laws we're talking about when there is nothing to gain, and even less are going to pass them when it's liable to result in a lot of money leaving their economy, yet with the global situation the US and other media producing powers need that money to enter our own economies given that we are producing the product.

Understand I'm generally both anti-pirate, and anti-game/media industry.
Push the issue with the military? Against Switzerland? You cannot possibly be serious.

1. Switzerland quickly proceeds to freeze all US assets in its banks, shattering the American economy.

2. The entire international community unites against the US, destroying the last hundred years of economic and military power the country has developed.

3. A male population entirely trained with the use of assault rifles obliterates anything less than a full strength ground invasion, so you've killed off hundreds of thousands of American soldiers.

4. If that were to even happen, because any government stupid enough to launch that attack would face a military insurrection and a coup.

The military is a very limited tool, that is only useful to prevent active threats to a country's security. I'm not sure if you're trolling here, but you need to realize that A) America is not the overlord of the world, and B) NOBODY is the boss of Switzerland. Ever.
 

Epona

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Aris Khandr said:
Maleval said:
Why do people keep calling piracy "stealing"? It's stupid really.
Last time I checked, taking something without paying for it IS stealing. Any nonsense about how you "didn't take a physical thing" and "data is infinitely copyable" is just justifying it to yourself, and a thin justification as that. Taking something without paying for it is stealing.
I have an empty Ritz crackers box on my desk that has more monetary value than a digital download because if you take that Ritz box from me, I have lost it. Also, it is just logical that as time goes on, more and more people will realize that they can either pay EA $60 to download a DRM version of BF3 or they can get a DRM-Free version for free.
 

BRex21

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I have always hated piracy as a facet of of our entitlement complex, its just wrong to enjoy the fruits of someone elses labours, but i am the first to admit that there is a strong body of evidence showing that people who pirate, both act as free advertisement, and buy stuff too when they are able.
I also think that the US is absolutely insane, and the companies who sell the stuff usually aren't much better, personally i would rather use the Swiss model of "ignore piracy" as opposed to Americas "pirates must end up bankrupt and in jail."
 

Aris Khandr

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Crono1973 said:
Also, it is just logical that as time goes on, more and more people will realize that they can either pay EA $60 to download a DRM version of BF3 or they can get a DRM-Free version for free.
No, that is not logical. Logical would be to decide that if you don't want what EA made, then you not only do not pay them, but you do not play the game as well. All pirating does is send the message that they made something interesting, but their market is filled with criminal jackanapes who would rather steal it than pay them for their work. You want to send a REAL message about their DRM? Don't buy it. Don't pirate it. Let the game flounder and die. And then tell them why you won't touch it. That sends the right message.
 

chris11246

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Crono1973 said:
Aris Khandr said:
Maleval said:
Why do people keep calling piracy "stealing"? It's stupid really.
Last time I checked, taking something without paying for it IS stealing. Any nonsense about how you "didn't take a physical thing" and "data is infinitely copyable" is just justifying it to yourself, and a thin justification as that. Taking something without paying for it is stealing.
I have an empty Ritz crackers box on my desk that has more monetary value than a digital download because if you take that Ritz box from me, I have lost it. Also, it is just logical that as time goes on, more and more people will realize that they can either pay EA $60 to download a DRM version of BF3 or they can get a DRM-Free version for free.
You clearly don't understand how value works. What you're paying for is all the work that was put into the game. That is valuable, and if game makers and publishers don't make enough money to stay in business then they will stop making games. How would you like it if you worked for a year on something and someone took it without paying you for it? When you steal from them you are devaluing their work and they are then losing the money they worked hard to get. That is stealing.
 

Levethian

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Aris Khandr said:
Maleval said:
Why do people keep calling piracy "stealing"? It's stupid really.
Last time I checked, taking something without paying for it IS stealing. Any nonsense about how you "didn't take a physical thing" and "data is infinitely copyable" is just justifying it to yourself, and a thin justification as that. Taking something without paying for it is stealing.
Except 'taking' isn't the right word ;). Nothing is 'taken'. Taken & all its synonyms imply that something has moved from a rightful owner to a thief. Not the case with software piracy.

There needs to be a better word for data-copying than 'stealing' or 'piracy'.

Any ideas?..
 

Aris Khandr

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SenorStocks said:
Aris Khandr said:
Maleval said:
Why do people keep calling piracy "stealing"? It's stupid really.
Last time I checked, taking something without paying for it IS stealing. Any nonsense about how you "didn't take a physical thing" and "data is infinitely copyable" is just justifying it to yourself, and a thin justification as that. Taking something without paying for it is stealing.
Thankfully the actual legal definition of stealing isn't so flimsy and makes the distinction between the two. So no, legally it isn't stealing.
We have a different term for damn near everything in the legal system. So, you're right, *legally* it may be "pirating" instead of "stealing", but *morally*, you're still a thief. But enjoy your logical loopholes, whatever helps you sleep at night.
 

Levethian

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Aris Khandr said:
We have a different term for damn near everything in the legal system. So, you're right, *legally* it may be "pirating" instead of "stealing", but *morally*, you're still a thief. But enjoy your logical loopholes, whatever helps you sleep at night.
I wish more people would concede to this being a grey area rather than yelling 'THIEF'.