Pirates accidentally preserving gaming history?

[Sikachu]

Be wary of writing anything positive about piracy on The Escapist forum - it's an organ for expanding the revenues of the games industry rather than free and rational discourse and you could easily face mod wrath.

For my part I think that there should be a ten year limit on copyright infringement in videogames, and thereafter old games should have their sources opened for the good of the community. I think this is actually true for software in general, as restricting that information for longer doesn't doesn't really provide much in the way of extra incentive to innovate.

Isn't that how copyrighted works go into public domain, a number of years after the copyright owner's death?
of course, difficult to quantify with games, seeing as so many work on them...

No not really - copyright law varies massively depending on the type of thing you've copyrighted, and jurisdiction. For some things it's a strict term of years (often with extensions being something you can apply for) and with others it is natural death (often with a term thereafter), and other things like drug patents run out after ten years. My proposal was not for 10 years 'after death', it's 10 years after publishing.

 

[Sikachu]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

 

[Jammy2003]

They will just release hard copies of the games as compilations. There is also already emulators on the PC as well. In fact you can game all the way up to the last gen with emulators although they haven't worked out all the kinks yet with the last gen. This is what emulators and these compilations are for.

Hard copies of Double Fine and Twisted Pixel games aren't coming. Beyond Good and Evil HD is staying digital. This is just fact.

I know all about emulators. It was the DC emulator's lack of cooperation that made me buy an actual DC. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to play FFVI without the SNES emulator. And the dolphin emulator is what got me hyped for Last Story's (hopeful) eventual release. Emulators are God-sends, but it'll be a long time before we get a proper emulator for Flower.

No it is not fact. As soon as they want or need money they will be able to re-release them as a hard copy. Why do you think bands have so many "last" tours? As I said about emulators last gen's emulators are not perfect but they are still being worked on. Yes it will be a long time but you also aren't taking into account that in a new gen they may just move the shop. So would still have access to all the old XBLA and PSN titles just in a new shop. If there is a market and money to be made then money they will make.

Also you don't need a DC emulator for FFVI as PS1 emulator with FFVI works just fine thank you very much. I have nor problems running my PS1 games on it. You just need to shop around for emulators.

They will always be ABLE to re-release, but how many will? FF7 never got it, despite people loving it and wanting a re-make. It was a pain in the arse for me to get disks for it, and I ended up paying more than I do for games pre-order as I wanted the PC version of it.

Game Companies do shut down people re-releasing even if its completely non-profit, to "protect their property", case in point, Chrono Trigger remake Chrono Resurrection. Some companies aren't interested in re-doing the old stuff or making it available for now, that's the past.

For a very short while I pirated, now I don't as I a) thought more about the effects of it, b) have the money to buy games and c) Like to support the industry I love. I will only get games that it is impossible to buy, ie. things for emulators. And I think there is a distinct difference between piracy and Roms of games no longer being distributed, as one can sometimes be seen as a lost sale, while the other has no standing on the company who own the product, as even if you can buy it, they receive no profit from the sale as it is purely second hand sale.

Edit: For clarity and to expand a point

 

[the_green_dragon]

This is where i like to mention good sites like www.Abandonia.com and www.oldversion.com who keep old games alive. And good old games too. Hopefully in the distant future the games of today will be on these sites and live on!!!

P.S I feel a banhammer coming down on this thread soon.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

They will just release hard copies of the games as compilations. There is also already emulators on the PC as well. In fact you can game all the way up to the last gen with emulators although they haven't worked out all the kinks yet with the last gen. This is what emulators and these compilations are for.

Hard copies of Double Fine and Twisted Pixel games aren't coming. Beyond Good and Evil HD is staying digital. This is just fact.

I know all about emulators. It was the DC emulator's lack of cooperation that made me buy an actual DC. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to play FFVI without the SNES emulator. And the dolphin emulator is what got me hyped for Last Story's (hopeful) eventual release. Emulators are God-sends, but it'll be a long time before we get a proper emulator for Flower.

No it is not fact. As soon as they want or need money they will be able to re-release them as a hard copy. Why do you think bands have so many "last" tours? As I said about emulators last gen's emulators are not perfect but they are still being worked on. Yes it will be a long time but you also aren't taking into account that in a new gen they may just move the shop. So would still have access to all the old XBLA and PSN titles just in a new shop. If there is a market and money to be made then money they will make.

Also you don't need a DC emulator for FFVI as PS1 emulator with FFVI works just fine thank you very much. I have nor problems running my PS1 games on it. You just need to shop around for emulators.

They will always be ABLE to re-release, but how many will? FF7 never got it, despite people loving it and wanting a re-make. It was a pain in the arse for me to get disks for it, and I ended up paying more than I do for games pre-order as I wanted the PC version of it.

Game Companies do shut down people re-releasing even if its completely non-profit, to "protect their property", case in point, Chrono Trigger remake Chrono Resurrection. Some companies aren't interested in re-doing the old stuff or making it available for now, that's the past.

For a very short while I pirated, now I don't. I will only get games that it is impossible to buy, ie. things for emulators. And I think there is a distinct difference between piracy and Roms of games no longer being distributed, as one can sometimes be seen as a lost sale, while the other has no standing on the company who own the product, as even if you can buy it, they receive no profit from the sale as it is purely second hand sale.

Edit: For clarity and to expand a point

As I said before this is what emulators are for. The only reason they shut down re-release or don't do them is too save them for a rainy day. Do you really think Square wouldn't do a FFVII remake if they were in the shits?

 

[Sikachu]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

The loss isnt the point. The point is you are presuming that your money is worth more than people who pay for things. Which it's not. By not buying products and using them forever after your just c*ck slapping everyone who pays for such things.

Screw the companies, your saying your more important than the common man, which makes you stuck up as all hell. You want something, you buy it, its how our economy works, don't like it, go to china.

1. No-one was talking to you. Kindly keep your nose out of conversation that you clearly do not have the faculties to follow.
2. Your pathetic 'analysis' regarding "c*ck slapping" would be embarassing if said by a twelve year-old.
3. I don't deny that piracy is harmful to the games industry. I do, however, deny that it costs the games industry something - the point that I was seeking clarification over as it is a claim put forward by people in lots of places that I consider to be a blatant lie.
4. Stop putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I says "Screw the companies", or that I am "more important than the common man".

 

[M920CAIN]

Hell yeah baby, someone finally appreciates our contributions.

 

[Jammy2003]

They will always be ABLE to re-release, but how many will? FF7 never got it, despite people loving it and wanting a re-make. It was a pain in the arse for me to get disks for it, and I ended up paying more than I do for games pre-order as I wanted the PC version of it.

Game Companies do shut down people re-releasing even if its completely non-profit, to "protect their property", case in point, Chrono Trigger remake Chrono Resurrection. Some companies aren't interested in re-doing the old stuff or making it available for now, that's the past.

For a very short while I pirated, now I don't. I will only get games that it is impossible to buy, ie. things for emulators. And I think there is a distinct difference between piracy and Roms of games no longer being distributed, as one can sometimes be seen as a lost sale, while the other has no standing on the company who own the product, as even if you can buy it, they receive no profit from the sale as it is purely second hand sale.

Edit: For clarity and to expand a point

As I said before this is what emulators are for. The only reason they shut down re-release or don't do them is too save them for a rainy day. Do you really think Square wouldn't do a FFVII remake if they were in the shits?

I think they shut that down as they re-released the original game on the DS, but you should look at the concept art, it looks pretty amazing, they should just hire the guys re-making it for the love of it and give them a job doing it! I'd buy that version of it in no time.

And I'm not sure if they would, people always complain about FF being a cash-cow, if they started re-making stuff it would be even more so. The game is getting a little old even for remake now anyway, the newest generation has no idea about it really.

 

[Dapz]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

It costs the companies money when someone who would have otherwise paid for a game instead pirates it. I don't have to prove that it makes them lose money, the point is that it results in them not making money that they otherwise would have. I acknowledged in that post that it's usually not a massive problem for big companies, but for smaller ones it can be discouraging for the future. I've heard about DS games not being released in some countries because the projected profit when R4s are taken into account was too small. Maybe you're a frequent pirate and you're trying to convince yourself that it's ok, but you CAN NOT deny that one way or another, piracy is detrimental to the gaming industry.

 

[Sprinal]

Oh and btw, many of the "lost" episodes of Dr Who were recovered and compiled by pirates.

Damn Ninja'd

Well it is hardly surprising that I was considering I am a few hours late.

Still Piracy is good in that regard.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

They will always be ABLE to re-release, but how many will? FF7 never got it, despite people loving it and wanting a re-make. It was a pain in the arse for me to get disks for it, and I ended up paying more than I do for games pre-order as I wanted the PC version of it.

Game Companies do shut down people re-releasing even if its completely non-profit, to "protect their property", case in point, Chrono Trigger remake Chrono Resurrection. Some companies aren't interested in re-doing the old stuff or making it available for now, that's the past.

For a very short while I pirated, now I don't. I will only get games that it is impossible to buy, ie. things for emulators. And I think there is a distinct difference between piracy and Roms of games no longer being distributed, as one can sometimes be seen as a lost sale, while the other has no standing on the company who own the product, as even if you can buy it, they receive no profit from the sale as it is purely second hand sale.

Edit: For clarity and to expand a point

As I said before this is what emulators are for. The only reason they shut down re-release or don't do them is too save them for a rainy day. Do you really think Square wouldn't do a FFVII remake if they were in the shits?

I think they shut that down as they re-released the original game on the DS, but you should look at the concept art, it looks pretty amazing, they should just hire the guys re-making it for the love of it and give them a job doing it! I'd buy that version of it in no time.

And I'm not sure if they would, people always complain about FF being a cash-cow, if they started re-making stuff it would be even more so. The game is getting a little old even for remake now anyway, the newest generation has no idea about it really.

See you're not looking at this from the view of a company. As a company unless they need/want the money it is not going happen. Companies don't care about love they only care about the ching ching.

 

[soulblade06]

This is actually one aspect of piracy that is very interesting to say the least...

I think we do need a huge Vault for gaming, something straight out of Fallout that includes every game ever released ever.

Or y'know, more people could buy from GOG.com, that could work too.

And then we could populate it with teenagers, seal it for 200 years, and observe the culture that emerges! It's science!

 

[Dapz]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

The loss isnt the point. The point is you are presuming that your money is worth more than people who pay for things. Which it's not. By not buying products and using them forever after your just c*ck slapping everyone who pays for such things.

Screw the companies, your saying your more important than the common man, which makes you stuck up as all hell. You want something, you buy it, its how our economy works, don't like it, go to china.

1. No-one was talking to you. Kindly keep your nose out of conversation that you clearly do not have the faculties to follow.
2. Your pathetic 'analysis' regarding "c*ck slapping" would be embarassing if said by a twelve year-old.
3. I don't deny that piracy is harmful to the games industry. I do, however, deny that it costs the games industry something - the point that I was seeking clarification over as it is a claim put forward by people in lots of places that I consider to be a blatant lie.
4. Stop putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I says "Screw the companies", that I am "more important than the common man".

Your defending a practise most selfish. There is no need to pirate ever. The things which are pirated are luxury items not basic human needs. There is no true reason to ever do it, other than the people are selfish and want something without the work. I stand against it because if said people aren't called out for their transgressions the assumption is that its ok.

The only reason that certain drugs are so prevalent is because their socially acceptable, such as weed. I do not want our subculture to make piracy as socially accepted as that is. So i will argue and shout at people standing up for it.

I'm not defending a fucking thing. I'm challenging the bullshit notion that piracy costs games companies something. LEARN TO READ.

SHEESH No need to get aggressive! You're on a public forum and the sad truth (sad to you at least, it doesn't bother anyone else) is that people may enter a discussion if they think they have something to contribute. That's why you replied to my post, even though I hadn't said anywhere that I was directly addressing YOU. Your childish reply would be embarrassing if it came from a six-year-old, let alone a twelve-year-old. Anyway, as long as you acknowledge that piracy is harmful in some way to the gaming industry, you agree that there is a very strong argument against it, which was the main point of my post.

 

[Sikachu]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

It costs the companies money when someone who would have otherwise paid for a game instead pirates it. I don't have to prove that it makes them lose money, the point is that it results in them not making money that they otherwise would have. I acknowledged in that post that it's usually not a massive problem for big companies, but for smaller ones it can be discouraging for the future. I've heard about DS games not being released in some countries because the projected profit when R4s are taken into account was too small. Maybe you're a frequent pirate and you're trying to convince yourself that it's ok, but you CAN NOT deny that one way or another, piracy is detrimental to the gaming industry.

Failure to profit is not a cost. Piracy doesn't cost games companies anything, it just prevents them from being enriched further. I used to be a frequent pirate but I grew out of my rationalisation when I realised that despite the fact the the industry continuously lies about piracy and exercises its financial muscle to force the law into pretending that piracy is stealing, piracy is nevertheless unjust enrichment, and fundamentally I don't think that it is worth debasing myself just to get videogames. I've not pirated any games for a period of years.

I agree with you that piracy is wrong. Can you admit that failure to make money is not the same as costing money, or have you been brainwashed into thinking it is? Do you recognise at least that there is a distinction to be made between someone taking ten pounds of mine and me failing to maybe make some money off them?

 

[Jammy2003]

As I said before this is what emulators are for. The only reason they shut down re-release or don't do them is too save them for a rainy day. Do you really think Square wouldn't do a FFVII remake if they were in the shits?

I think they shut that down as they re-released the original game on the DS, but you should look at the concept art, it looks pretty amazing, they should just hire the guys re-making it for the love of it and give them a job doing it! I'd buy that version of it in no time.

And I'm not sure if they would, people always complain about FF being a cash-cow, if they started re-making stuff it would be even more so. The game is getting a little old even for remake now anyway, the newest generation has no idea about it really.

See you're not looking at this from the view of a company. As a company unless they need/want the money it is not going happen. Companies don't care about love they only care about the ching ching.

Some companies do, I feel. At least in the respect that they will do something for the love of it and make a profit, than do something they hate and make a slightly bigger one. I know, no companies seem to do something for the love and sod the profit, but that's unrealistic to expect. However, this would make money, and also bring new vigor to a much loved game.

 

[Dapz]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

It costs the companies money when someone who would have otherwise paid for a game instead pirates it. I don't have to prove that it makes them lose money, the point is that it results in them not making money that they otherwise would have. I acknowledged in that post that it's usually not a massive problem for big companies, but for smaller ones it can be discouraging for the future. I've heard about DS games not being released in some countries because the projected profit when R4s are taken into account was too small. Maybe you're a frequent pirate and you're trying to convince yourself that it's ok, but you CAN NOT deny that one way or another, piracy is detrimental to the gaming industry.

Failure to profit is not a cost. Piracy doesn't cost games companies anything, it just prevents them from being enriched further. I used to be a frequent pirate but I grew out of my rationalisation when I realised that despite the fact the the industry continuously lies about piracy and exercises its financial muscle to force the law into pretending that piracy is stealing, piracy is nevertheless unjust enrichment, and fundamentally I don't think that it is worth debasing myself just to get videogames. I've not pirated any games for a period of years.

I agree with you that piracy is wrong. Can you admit that failure to make money is not the same as costing money, or have you been brainwashed into thinking it is? Do you recognise at least that there is a distinction to be made between someone taking ten pounds of mine and me failing to maybe make some money off them?

If it's ten pounds for a service of some sort that you've done for them and they haven't paid you for, it's pretty much the same as a loss. If you lose money, the result is is that you don't have money that you should have. If you don't get paid for something you should, the result is that you don't have money that you should have. Granted, there is a difference in how you came to not have said money, but it's essentially six of one and half a dozen of the other.

 

[Sikachu]

against it is the devastating amounts of money it can cost game companies

Demonstrate an example of piracy costing a games company money. Not some wishy-washy bullshit about a company not making money on what it presumes would otherwise have been a sale - failure to gain is not the same as cost. If you fail to demonstrate this, I demand you retract your misleading statement.

The loss isnt the point. The point is you are presuming that your money is worth more than people who pay for things. Which it's not. By not buying products and using them forever after your just c*ck slapping everyone who pays for such things.

Screw the companies, your saying your more important than the common man, which makes you stuck up as all hell. You want something, you buy it, its how our economy works, don't like it, go to china.

1. No-one was talking to you. Kindly keep your nose out of conversation that you clearly do not have the faculties to follow.
2. Your pathetic 'analysis' regarding "c*ck slapping" would be embarassing if said by a twelve year-old.
3. I don't deny that piracy is harmful to the games industry. I do, however, deny that it costs the games industry something - the point that I was seeking clarification over as it is a claim put forward by people in lots of places that I consider to be a blatant lie.
4. Stop putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I says "Screw the companies", that I am "more important than the common man".

Your defending a practise most selfish. There is no need to pirate ever. The things which are pirated are luxury items not basic human needs. There is no true reason to ever do it, other than the people are selfish and want something without the work. I stand against it because if said people aren't called out for their transgressions the assumption is that its ok.

The only reason that certain drugs are so prevalent is because their socially acceptable, such as weed. I do not want our subculture to make piracy as socially accepted as that is. So i will argue and shout at people standing up for it.

I'm not defending a fucking thing. I'm challenging the bullshit notion that piracy costs games companies something. LEARN TO READ.

SHEESH No need to get aggressive! You're on a public forum and the sad truth (sad to you at least, it doesn't bother anyone else) is that people may enter a discussion if they think they have something to contribute. That's why you replied to my post, even though I hadn't said anywhere that I was directly addressing YOU. Your childish reply would be embarrassing if it came from a six-year-old, let alone a twelve-year-old. Anyway, as long as you acknowledge that piracy is harmful in some way to the gaming industry, you agree that there is a very strong argument against it, which was the main point of my post.

How am I supposed to not be aggressive when my clearly stated opinions are being rewritten and opinions are being thrust upon me that I have at no point expressed? Particularly when I point out that this is the case and it nevertheless repeats itself from the same poster?

I'm perfectly happy for public contribution to a conversation, and I understand the nature of a public forum. Do you understand that it is important to respond to what is written in people's posts rather than some imaginary bullshit the exists only in the responder's head?

Also, the intended effect of my 'keep your nose out' to him was less to prevent people joining in discussion than it was to point out that he should seek to understand the discussion before wading in with irrelevant opinions that have nothing to do with the content of the post.

It's not enough to be on the right side of a debate. You need to actually marshall the facts and be on the right side for the right reasons. Otherwise your argument has no moral imperative. Our (mine and yours) disagreement is not as to the acceptability of piracy, but as to the reason it is unacceptable, and specifically as to whether or not failure to potentially profit is the same as 'cost'. Given that cost involves value moving from the person it is costing, I deny that it is. Doesn't mean piracy isn't wrong, it just means that it isn't wrong because it "costs the industry money".

That's why I asked you for an example where it cost someone in the industry money. I want you to go around telling people that piracy is bad for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. You're a lot more persuasive that way. That you and the other guy both assumed that questioning this meant I was pro-piracy is entirely down to your biases and expectations of what anyone challenging any part of your reasoning thinks, and in no way down to my comments. If in future both of you bothered to respond only to what was actually written, such conversations would be a lot more civil and interesting.