Pirates of the Caribbean 1 had the deepest villain motivation I have ever seen.

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
To keep it short, essentially the main badguys, the Cursed Skeleton Crew of the Black Pearl with Barbossa being the chief badguy. They are cursed with undeath and they turn into skeletons in the Moonlight. They are practically immortal and invincible since shooting them and cutting thier heads does nothing, but the by product of this is that it cost them not feeling "Human", Barbossa said so himself.

"The drink would not satisfy, food turned to ash in our mouths, and pleasurable company (prostitutes) could not slake our lust."

"For too long I have been parched of thirst and unable to quench it. Too long have I been starving to death, and haven't died. I feel nothing, not the wind on my face nor the spray of the sea, nor the warmth of a woman's flesh."

So their entire motivation is to lift the curse, forsaking the immortality and invincibility that comes with it, to gain back thier mortal humanity.

Why I find this deep is because you would think no longer needing to eat, drink, sleep, and being immortal would actually be a benefit, heck this is the usually the desire of most supervillains, and the drawback of turning into skeletons at night is not that big a deal when you are still completely immortal and invincible. But to these guys no, they would rather live their mortal lives with thier humanity intact then be this immortal ghost.

What do you guys think?
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
8,619
1,651
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
I dunno if that's deep. Understandable, sympathetic even, but not "deep."

But as undeadsuitor said, PotC 1 is the best of the 5 (well, 4 for me, haven't seen 5), but I think Davy Jones might be the better villain, if Barbossa is the better overall character.
 

SckizoBoy

Ineptly Chaotic
Legacy
Jan 6, 2011
8,671
192
68
A Hermit's Cave
Deep? Naw, not really... a bit more (sic?) base than would be considered a paragon of humanity? Yes...

Better than a lot of villains' motivations/justifications from other movies/movie franchises? Definitely.

Overall, it is probably the best film of the four (that I've seen... not seen the 5th, probably won't, in all honesty) just to chime in with the above couple posters, but I watch #3 the most, but pretty much only for select scenes and the music.
 

Squilookle

New member
Nov 6, 2008
3,584
0
0
They messed up and got cursed. Gotta reverse the mistake to lift the curse.

Nothing deep about that.

I'd say the villains of Watchmen, The Rock, Inside Man, The Usual Suspects, Silence of the Lambs, Pretty much everything Hitchcock, and damn near every other movie in general has more complex villain motivations than that. Hell even some Bond Villains back in the Connery era had better motives than that.
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
8,619
1,651
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Squilookle said:
Hell even some Bond Villains back in the Connery era had better motives than that.
...such as?

I remember two Connery villains. Dr. No (wants to take over the world or something?) and Goldfinger (I want to get rich by irradiating the US's gold stocks). Also saw Diamonds Are Forever, but not only is that my least favorite Bond film, I can barely even remember the villains (two bad guys who do bad things for bad reasons).

If I had to rank the best Bond villains (at least in terms of motivation), it would be Trevelyan and/or Silva. Revenge isn't the most complex of motivations, but it does make a villain more compelling rather than "I'm evil" or "I want power/money."
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
18,318
2,756
118
I think you're confusing strength with depth.


And even then, there's plenty of 'villain wants to end his/her suffering' plotlines in fiction. A side quest in The Witcher 3 and the recent God of War had pretty much the same villain set-up.
 

Squilookle

New member
Nov 6, 2008
3,584
0
0
Hawki said:
Squilookle said:
Hell even some Bond Villains back in the Connery era had better motives than that.
...such as?

I remember two Connery villains. Dr. No (wants to take over the world or something?) and Goldfinger (I want to get rich by irradiating the US's gold stocks). Also saw Diamonds Are Forever, but not only is that my least favorite Bond film, I can barely even remember the villains (two bad guys who do bad things for bad reasons).

If I had to rank the best Bond villains (at least in terms of motivation), it would be Trevelyan and/or Silva. Revenge isn't the most complex of motivations, but it does make a villain more compelling rather than "I'm evil" or "I want power/money."
A lot of Connery era plots were about a power-shift by extortion. Say in YOLT for example. If they succeeded in that one, a Nuclear war sparked between the US and Russia could have created a power vacuum large enough for SPECTRE to become a puppet master of the entire world through China as its puppet. That's not just getting rich, that's dictating the course of the planet.

Goldfinger's another interesting example. On the surface he just wants to get richer, but instead of simply robbing from Fort Knox, he knows that rendering it radioactive doesn't just increase the value of everything he already has, it renders an entire foreign economy obsolete. That's essentially what Trevelyan does too. Don't forget he's after the funds in The Bank of England, which allows Bond to really get under his skin by calling him a common thief.

I'd have to disagree that simple revenge gives anyone depth whatsoever. Trevelyan's plans may have been fuelled by revenge, but even if they hadn't been, it was a great scheme anyway.
 

Catnip1024

New member
Jan 25, 2010
328
0
0
For a kids movie, it's not bad. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it "deep".

I'm not sure about the deepest, but the villain motivation that I've found the best recently was in Unaltered Carbon.
No desire for wealth or power, just an obsession of being re-united with her brother that she'd been separated from as a kid, and keeping the two of them safe at all costs
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
16,209
1,764
118
Yeah, as mentioned, not a bad motive for an action film, but not deep in any meaningful way.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,955
118
Samtemdo8 said:
Why I find this deep is because you would think no longer needing to eat, drink, sleep, and being immortal would actually be a benefit, heck this is the usually the desire of most supervillains, and the drawback of turning into skeletons at night is not that big a deal when you are still completely immortal and invincible. But to these guys no, they would rather live their mortal lives with thier humanity intact then be this immortal ghost.

What do you guys think?
Isn't that basically the same as the turncoat in The Matrix? He's fed up of eating mush instead of steak frites.[footnote]Of course, the Wachowskis then went and spoiled that motivation of life outside the Matrix sucking in the next two movies, by showing Zion to have awesome all night mega fun raves.[/footnote] Or see any number of vampire movies that choose to portray them as slipping into a decadence where they crave the stimulation and excitement of humanity.

I think the most interesting villains are any kind of three dimensional characters. Not psychopaths, mad scientists, boring old undead, etc. I suppose zombies are often interesting as they can be metaphors for aspects of society, but it's not the same as psychological motivation.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
1,037
0
0
Samtemdo8 said:
Why I find this deep is because you would think no longer needing to eat, drink, sleep, and being immortal would actually be a benefit, heck this is the usually the desire of most supervillains, and the drawback of turning into skeletons at night is not that big a deal when you are still completely immortal and invincible. But to these guys no, they would rather live their mortal lives with thier humanity intact then be this immortal ghost.

What do you guys think?
Well its not about not needing more along of the lines of not feeling the sensation of. They can't enjoy the pleasures of life and since this is the colonial times entertainment is kinda limited.
 

Drathnoxis

The detective who kills people who ask him to help
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
4,535
1,243
118
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
 

CrazyGirl17

I am a banana!
Sep 11, 2009
5,141
0
0
Like everyone else said, it's not deep... but it is a reasonable motivation. Which is why the first movie is the best - it has a simple, straightforward story with no complications or confused loyalties.

...I still like the third movie, though.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
14,334
0
0
I wouldn't call that esp. deep, no. It's pretty simple and straight forward really. It's been awhile since I've seen PotC1, but If I recall they didn't even learn anything from getting cursed. Like maybe learning how their greed could be their undoing, which it was. Nope they were still running around being evil pirates and just wanted to lift the curse so they could better enjoy running around being evil pirates.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
1,037
0
0
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.

Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I say benefiting something bigger/other than yourselves is a bit more deep, not saying wanting to gain the ability to feel isn't a bad motivation(in fact its a pretty good) but I would personally call it shallow
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.
I did mention it, but what I am trying to say is that from the perspective of a different kind of villin, not being able to feel or taste anything hardly matters anymore so long as you are immortal.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
1,037
0
0
Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.
I did mention it, but what I am trying to say is that from the perspective of a different kind of villin, not being able to feel or taste anything hardly matters anymore so long as you are immortal.
Umm, yes it does most people including evil people enjoy the sensation of taste and touch ,its pretty much one of the reasons that make life worth living.Take that away and immortality and invincibility feel more like curses than blessings. If you ask any person if they want to be immortal/invincible but loses the ability to taste and touch I guarantee you most people would say no.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.
I did mention it, but what I am trying to say is that from the perspective of a different kind of villin, not being able to feel or taste anything hardly matters anymore so long as you are immortal.
Umm, yes it does most people including evil people enjoy the sensation of taste and touch ,its pretty much one of the reasons that make life worth living.Take that away and immortality and invincibility feel more like curses than blessings. If you ask any person if they want to be immortal/invincible but loses the ability to taste and touch I guarantee you most people would say no.
So you don't think a villain would sacrifice what makes him human to obtain ultimate power?