Pirates of the Caribbean 1 had the deepest villain motivation I have ever seen.

PapaGreg096

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Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.
I did mention it, but what I am trying to say is that from the perspective of a different kind of villin, not being able to feel or taste anything hardly matters anymore so long as you are immortal.
Umm, yes it does most people including evil people enjoy the sensation of taste and touch ,its pretty much one of the reasons that make life worth living.Take that away and immortality and invincibility feel more like curses than blessings. If you ask any person if they want to be immortal/invincible but loses the ability to taste and touch I guarantee you most people would say no.
So you don't think a villain would sacrifice what makes him human to obtain ultimate power?
Well not a pirate villain who are known for their hedonistic and decadent lifestyle.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I think you're putting far more thought into it than the writers did.
 

Thaluikhain

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It's explicitly a Curse. Barbarossa explains why it's no fun, IIRC he says something about forever being tortured by unfulfilled needs, perhaps with the implication that the desires were made stronger by the curse. The people behind it intended it to be a punishment, not a blessing.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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I will have to agree that I don't think it is a particularly deep motivation. However, I think it is a very humanizing motivation, which is pretty rare in your standard popcorn flicks. In general, PotC is much better written then it ever needed to be and that's probably why the first one was such a big success. All of the characters have clear and conflicting motivations, Jack plays at ignorance but is also obviously plotting in every single scene he is in and even Norrington gets a few moments to shine despite being the obvious foil to Will. Geoffrey Rush manages to really sell the pain and misery that the curse has put on Barbossa, while keeping Barbossa as a deliciously hammy villain that we absolutely want to see defeated.

Of course, the subtlety that made the first movie great vanished in the sequels, that were all pomp and bombast.
 

PapaGreg096

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Canadamus Prime said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I think you're putting far more thought into it than the writers did.
Again these are pirates not Doctor Doom esque supervillians
 

Xprimentyl

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Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.
I did mention it, but what I am trying to say is that from the perspective of a different kind of villin, not being able to feel or taste anything hardly matters anymore so long as you are immortal.
Umm, yes it does most people including evil people enjoy the sensation of taste and touch ,its pretty much one of the reasons that make life worth living.Take that away and immortality and invincibility feel more like curses than blessings. If you ask any person if they want to be immortal/invincible but loses the ability to taste and touch I guarantee you most people would say no.
So you don't think a villain would sacrifice what makes him human to obtain ultimate power?
Villains look to gain by any means necessary; Barbossa and his crew are unable to ?gain? anything. What good is immortality if you cannot enjoy it? Food is tasteless, thirst unquenchable and the pleasures of the flesh nullified; what good is immortality if the basic needs and wants are beyond one?s reach? It?s the antithesis of ?quality of life? but FOREVER. So, no, as many have now stated, I don?t think his motivations are particularly deep; they?re actually pretty basic.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Xprimentyl said:
Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
PapaGreg096 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I mean its not just being immortal/invincible you can't feel or taste anything, you are practically numb to the world. You are mentioning the upside to the whole "Pirate's curse" but for some reason you're not mentioning the downsides which were the motivations for the antagonist.
I did mention it, but what I am trying to say is that from the perspective of a different kind of villin, not being able to feel or taste anything hardly matters anymore so long as you are immortal.
Umm, yes it does most people including evil people enjoy the sensation of taste and touch ,its pretty much one of the reasons that make life worth living.Take that away and immortality and invincibility feel more like curses than blessings. If you ask any person if they want to be immortal/invincible but loses the ability to taste and touch I guarantee you most people would say no.
So you don't think a villain would sacrifice what makes him human to obtain ultimate power?
Villains look to gain by any means necessary; Barbossa and his crew are unable to ?gain? anything. What good is immortality if you cannot enjoy it? Food is tasteless, thirst unquenchable and the pleasures of the flesh nullified; what good is immortality if the basic needs and wants are beyond one?s reach? It?s the antithesis of ?quality of life? but FOREVER. So, no, as many have now stated, I don?t think his motivations are particularly deep; they?re actually pretty basic.
Metallo in Superman also had the same idea:

 

CaitSeith

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Yeah, it's not deep. It's clearly spelled out "we'll do anything in order to get rid of our recent immortality and feel pleasure again", just in a poetic way. It's not an uncommon trope of losing pleasure of the body (or getting other physical impairment) by gaining immortality, and wanting to fix that. It's just an original motive for a villain in a pirate movie. It's still an interesting existential conundrum to discuss.
 

Canadamus Prime

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PapaGreg096 said:
Canadamus Prime said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Drathnoxis said:
Ok, so the people saying it's not deep. What would you say makes something deep? Give an example.
I feel like these guys ignored what I said that the Pirate's curse would be seen as a benefit due to fact that they are virutally immortal and don't need to eat and sleep anymore. I mean can you imagine the possiblities of what you can do with such a thing? And as I said this is usually a goal most supervillains would desire. Like I doubt Dr. Doom would care if he turns into Skeleton at night if he is still virtually immortal and invincible.
I think you're putting far more thought into it than the writers did.
Again these are pirates not Doctor Doom esque supervillians
Precisely.
 

TrulyBritish

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Samtemdo8 said:
So you don't think a villain would sacrifice what makes him human to obtain ultimate power?
The thing is, you're treating immortality as the end goal which in well written stories it isn't, people want to be immortal to achieve some other goal, whether to take over the world (which again, is often treated as an end result when it shouldn't be) or otherwise.
If the story was about Barbossa wanting to, I dunno, take over the entire Caribbean then immortality helps, but him and his crew seem to be into it for pretty basic pleasure, drinking, eating whoring etcetera which the curse stops them from enjoying. Again, it's not just that they don't need to eat (which I'm sure most people would find freeing), it that they can't even if they want to.
Sacrificing that much for immortality could be worth it if he had some larger plot that required immortality to pull off, but it's not the case in PotC.

Take Zamasu from Super for example, also makes a wish for immortality, but this is done because he has a wider goal of wiping out mortal life but knows he's not strong enough to 1) Take out the Gods in a straight fight otherwise and 2) Fight certain mortals like Goku without risking death. While his motive is somewhat cliche, immortality is a stepping stone rather than the end result.
 
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What's good being able to eat, drink, or screw, if you can't feel anything? A pirate that can't even taste rum? A true tragedy i say. (Plus, Barbossa has a line along [i]a drink do not quench[/i] or something close, implying they're permamently thirsty and hungry... and horny(?) without being able to satiate themselves.)
And being immortal kinda makes everything even worse, since they can't even off themselves.

So yeah, not particularly "deep" motivation, by any meaning. But a very good and logical one.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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I wouldn't call it deep, but as villains go it's an OK motivation. Especially when you account for the fact that they're just a bunch of illiterate lowlife pirates. But the first movie is truly an excellent film. It might even be in my top 20 movies of all time. It's got everything that an adventure movie needs and it does everything really well.
 

Asita

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It's a relatable motivation, but it's not a particularly deep one. Nor is it particularly novel. At its core, their motive is heavily linked to continuous sense deprivation, which...well suffice to say that it's not uncommon for people in real life to become depressed after losing any of their senses. And we certainly aren't lacking for precedence in fiction. As linked earlier in the thread, Metallo in Superman TAS similarly desperately wanted to feel again, as did Renard in the World is Not Enough (James Bond), Alphonse in FullMetal Alchemist, Lord Scourge in Star Wars: The Old Republic[footnote]Late conversation with Scourge: "I still remember the feel of sunlight on my skin, the scent of favorite foods, the color of my first love's eyes. To experience those simple pleasures again would be worth anything"[/footnote], Baldur in God of War...

It's a sympathetic and easily relatable motive, but it lacks the complexity and/or introspective quality required to be deep.