Pirating Game Dev Tycoon Dooms Players to be Ruined By Piracy

J Tyran

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I do not want to argue the rest,our opinions our too polarized and the discussion is starting to go in circles. I cannot ignore this though,

Entitled said:
But deciding that the old publishing format simply needs to be protected even at the cost of limiting our personal rights,
No-one has the right to decide what entertainment you can take without returning fair due. Entertainment isnt really a right anyway, if we where discussing basic foodstuffs or water in this context I would generally agree with this position. Basic Human needs should be shared, those that can pay should pay and those in need should be provided for.

Noone has the right to simply take digital content, people spend hundreds of hours and heaps of cash. Denying them fair due is just wrong, noone has the right to do that.

If they simply admit they are taking it fine, just stop attempts to moralize it. I cannot condemn someone for simply taking something, its hypocritical of me to do so in all honesty. I have done worse in my life than download some movies and games, I own up to it and admit it. Pirates should step up and be honest too and admit "I want it so I will take it".
 

Waaghpowa

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I love these subtle non consumer damaging means to prevent piracy. Everyone should refer to Serious Sam 3's immortal pink scorpion.

This is easily the best way to combat piracy. It only hurts the pirates.
 

Korten12

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SecondPrize said:
The funny thing is, while I won't call for it in these forums, I won't be upset when a crack of the 'real' game dev tycoon comes out because this stinks of a PR stunt which, while brilliant, is more than a little hypocritical to me because as far as I can tell these two guys are straight ripping off kairosoft and their Game Dev Story.
Thing is, Game Dev Story is very basic, Game Dev Tycoon from what I have seen is a LOT more complicated. With publishers, having to meet a standard, having to make an engine and having to study into various things like 2D, 3D, etc...

It maybe a clone but it added a lot more depth then the original did...
 

ScrabbitRabbit

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I just tried the demo and fell in love with it.

Now the site appears to be down, so I can't buy it.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

EDIT: And now it's working. YAAAAAAAY.
 

Jadak

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This is also good example of where the 'wouldn't have bought it anyways" argument used to diminish the impact of piracy comes into play.
The depressing results of its own game's day one piracy rates show that only 6.4% of people playing the game bought it legitimately.
.

Now, that sounds pretty damn severe, because it is. But honestly, who has an interest in playing this game? Let alone buying it. Hell, I'm a fan of 'tycoon' type games, but I wouldn't even consider paying money for this, there's simply no appeal. But for free? Fuck, I don't know, maybe, but I've got better things to do even then.

Point being, sure, piracy is bad. But the percentage of your user base that is pirates might not mean a damn thing if nobody wants to buy the game in the first place. Now, if those same pirates are still playing a week or two from now, that might be a different story.
 

Judas_Iscariot

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Entitled said:
>Every argument you made so far goes here <
You are an author. You spend countless nights over the course of years perfecting your masterwork novel, all while working full time at an assembly line to earn enough to live off of. One day, after these long grueling years, you finish your novel and everyone loves it. You receive $30 in compensation, because you sold a single copy online which was then "shared" to anyone who wanted to read it for free. You never write again, and the world loses any new works you may have created.


Too much hypothetical? Without copyright protection there would be a grinding halt to creativity.
 

Entitled

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First of all:
J Tyran said:
Pirates should step up and be honest too and admit "I want it so I will take it".
That's an inherently loaded analogy, running on the same false comparison as "piracy is theft".
Copying is not "taking". The only thing that writing a copy of a game on your HDD takes away, is the IP holder's privilege to be the one who can tell you that you are not allowed to write that copy.

J Tyran said:
No-one has the right to decide what entertainment you can take without returning fair due.
We are going back to the basic question. How do you know that this exact amount of control truly *is* what is artists' fair due?

Let me put it this way:

Do you think that copyright should end after a limited term? (say, 90 years, as it does now?)
Do you think that the public should have Fair Use rights regarding others' IP?
Do you think that consumers should have used sales rights?


Let's say, that back when the first IP laws were still young, and they were mostly just about books, the US constitution was written in a slightly different way:

"...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing to Authors and Inventors an absolute Right to Control of their respective Writings and Discoveries..."

It's all logical, after all, property doesn't just magically disappear after a few decades either, and it's ownership is absolute, you can't just claim "fair use" on your neighbor's car, so the same should apply to IP.

Now, in this world, centuries later, as music recoding is invented, it is obvious from the first day that covers, remixes, medleys, and other reusings of someone else's work. The Betamax case was won by Sony, and all video recording is illegal, even for time-shifting, as you can't just copy someone else's whole work, it's "their fair due" that if you miss the movie, you have to buy the casette. Used game sales are illegal everywhere, after all, creators continue to control their Property even after you paid for your own private license.

The Internet still exists, though more file-sharing and video-streaming sites are banned, including this one, but piracy is still possible. I you know where to look, you can also find some seedy sites with illegal media on it, like Kamakawiwo&#699;ole's "What a wonderful world", or parody videos like "How the Lord of the Rings should have ended", along with entirely pirated content.

And let's say, that in this world, you suddenly get the idea that copyright shouldn't be that restrictive after all, that a certain amount of public rights should also be protected, rather than just glorifying creator rights at every chance.

How would you communicate that? Anything that you say, about your right to time-shift movies, would be first seen as "going against the creators wishes". If Sony asked you to buy the casette instead, then why are you denying them?

Any complaint about having to pay for 200 year old novels to the writer's descendants, would be seen as "just wanting free stuff". Any suggestion that artists should have some open access to some Fair Use, would be criticised as "promoting unoriginality" instead of creativity.

How would you make people think outside of hundreds of years of TRADITION of what ended up being criminalized for historical reason, and instead, at least CONSIDER the possibility that the world that they grew up in is already stacked against them, that it pointlessly harms them, and the Earth would keep on spinning if publishers wouldn't get quite THAT MUCH authority over our lives, and we could more freely use media without having to worry about every frame, and every bit?
 

Entitled

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Judas_Iscariot said:
You are an author. You spend countless nights over the course of years perfecting your masterwork novel, all while working full time at an assembly line to earn enough to live off of. One day, after these long grueling years, you finish your novel and everyone loves it. You receive $30 in compensation, because you sold a single copy online which was then "shared" to anyone who wanted to read it for free. You never write again, and the world loses any new works you may have created.


Too much hypothetical? Without copyright protection there would be a grinding halt to creativity.
Yeah, because that's exactly what happened to Paulo Coelho, Eric Flint, Cory Doctorow, and several other writers who put up their e-books on the Internet for free downloading.

Oh wait, no! They went on to sell a bunch of dead tree editions, and optional buyable e-books, and made a living from it.

Though to be fair, there are quite a few writers who didn't make money from writing.
For example those hundreds of fanfiction novel writers who spent years on long, entertaining, creative, and popular sagas, (that happen to take place in an universe invented by someone else earlier, just like most modern pop-culture works), and then no one bought them. BECAUSE COPYRIGHT LEGALLY STOPPED THEM FROM SELLING THEM!

So eventually, they were forced to quit their work. That is, the ones who got a C&D letter legally obliging them to STOP WRITING. The rest kept doing it for more years.
 

C14N

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Probably one of the cleverest ways of teaching gamers a lesson, especially when you see their forum posts echoing what the devs themselves are thinking. I think if I was the developer I would have probably just made all the characters massive penises in the cracked version or something. I hadn't realised they could mess up the cracked versions.
 

Holythirteen

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Entitled said:
WORDS

But if it's "property", than every move against it means "taking away from artists what is their due", what obviously belongs to them just because, regardless of whether they need it or not, taking it away would still be like Robin Hood robbing the rich.
Man you go to alot of trouble to say its ok to steal because I can plus its not stealing because of reasons.

So you pirate games because you hate the industry, or just capitalism in general? Is that oversimplifying? I suppose it's true that these laws wouldn't exist if old rich people didn't benefit from having them implemented, but there are plenty of IP's that wouldn't exist today that I happen to enjoy(music, books, games) that wouldn't exist if they didn't benefit the individuals who made them, so in response to your pseudo-legal justification I have to say "SO WHAT?", because I happen to like some of those things and I want more of them. If there's no profit in them why should anybody make them? Are you saying we should have some sort of voluntary donation system? Do you not enjoy these things or do you think you should get them for free because you are so awesome? Or maybe you think its up to the rest of us to pay for your games because you are smart enough to click on links to torrents? Make some sense dude.

You talk about the term "Intellectual Property" like it was this evil thing rich people made up so that they could get even richer, but I can't think of any IP that wasn't initially made by an individual or a small group of individuals, and they probably expected compensation for their creativity. These laws kept others from taking their ideas and selling them, why are these laws "the enemy" to you?

I assume you're not planning on creating anything yourself, because I'm pretty sure you'd have to copyright it or protect it somehow if you ever planned on making money off of it. What DO you do besides steal from hard working people anyway? (Don't answer that I don't actually care.)

OMG you think you are Robin Hood. Except the only poor person you give to is yourself.

For example those hundreds of fanfiction novel writers who spent years on long, entertaining, creative, and popular sagas, (that happen to take place in an universe invented by someone else earlier, just like most modern pop-culture works), and then no one bought them. BECAUSE COPYRIGHT LEGALLY STOPPED THEM FROM SELLING THEM!
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T BELONG TO THEM. If their ideas were so great they could've easily changed a few names and sold their work as its own product.

What idiot expects to make money from fanfiction?

Yeah, because that's exactly what happened to Paulo Coelho, Eric Flint, Cory Doctorow, and several other writers who put up their e-books on the Internet for free downloading.

Oh wait, no! They went on to sell a bunch of dead tree editions, and optional buyable e-books, and made a living from it.
They own it they CHOSE TO DO THAT WITH THEIR OWN IP. Good thing there are laws that keep me from downloading, printing, and selling it myself!
 

C14N

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Jadak said:
This is also good example of where the 'wouldn't have bought it anyways" argument used to diminish the impact of piracy comes into play.
The depressing results of its own game's day one piracy rates show that only 6.4% of people playing the game bought it legitimately.
.

Now, that sounds pretty damn severe, because it is. But honestly, who has an interest in playing this game? Let alone buying it. Hell, I'm a fan of 'tycoon' type games, but I wouldn't even consider paying money for this, there's simply no appeal. But for free? Fuck, I don't know, maybe, but I've got better things to do even then.

Point being, sure, piracy is bad. But the percentage of your user base that is pirates might not mean a damn thing if nobody wants to buy the game in the first place. Now, if those same pirates are still playing a week or two from now, that might be a different story.
If they cared about it enough to invest their time finding it and playing it (bearing in mind that if they just wanted to try it out, there was a free demo) then the simple fact is that if the free version just didn't exist, they would have paid something for it. It's been years since I've paid full retail price for a game, because it's rare that I think it's worth it but I still buy tons of games because I pay a lower price eventually. Similarly, a lot of gamers might go "bah, not paying 8 bucks for this, I'll just pirate it because if I wasn't going to buy it, they aren't losing anything" even though if, in a year, they saw it for half that in a Steam sale, a lot of them would have forked out.
 

ResonanceSD

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JazzJack2 said:
But piracy doesn't make developers lose money, in fact it does the opposite, devs gain money from piracy.
Did you not even read the post? You seem to be all for advocating piracy even in the face of the developer saying "yo dude, we're losing money here".
 

Entitled

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Holythirteen said:
Entitled said:
WORDS

But if it's "property", than every move against it means "taking away from artists what is their due", what obviously belongs to them just because, regardless of whether they need it or not, taking it away would still be like Robin Hood robbing the rich.
Man you go to alot of trouble to say its ok to steal because I can plus its not stealing because of reasons.

OMG you think you are Robin Hood.
Ok. Now go back, and read the rest of those WORDS, where I'm explaining why IP is *NOT* property, but the content industry is trying to portray it as if it would be.

And then read again that paragraph starting with a hypothetical "if it's property...", and ending with Robin Hood.

What I'm saying is that "robbing the rich" is OBVIOUSLY wrong, therefore if copyright would be property, then not just every copyright infringement would be theft, but even copyright reform based on the fact that publishers already hoard too much IP right, should be treated as inappropriately Robin Hood-ish.

That's why we have to treat IP like what it is, a practical market regulation that was useful at a time for rewarding creativity, but it might need to be readjusted now as it is doing more harm than good, and we can totally do that without bringing up the content industry's whole theft/robbing/unalienable moral right to ownership issue.
 

Holythirteen

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That's why we have to treat IP like what it is, a practical market regulation that was useful at a time for rewarding creativity, but it might need to be readjusted now as it is doing more harm than good, and we can totally do that without bringing up the content industry's whole theft/robbing/unalienable moral right to ownership issue.
Funny how that readjustment means you get stuff for free while the rest of us have to pay.

Yeah, intellectual property and physical property are NOT THE SAME THINGS I get that part. I figure if something takes time, effort, and resources to create then SOMEBODY SHOULD BE COMPENSATED FOR THAT INVESTMENT.

If it costs too much I won't pay. If its badly made or has punishing DRM I won't pay. If enough people WILL pay and they earn a profit I shrug my shoulders and say "Oh well, idiots." Then I find something worth my money. THAT is the path to this wonderful system where creativity is rewarded, and pirates don't care, they just want free stuff.
 

MrDumpkins

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SecondPrize said:
phoenix352 said:
SecondPrize said:
phoenix352 said:
SecondPrize said:
phoenix352 said:
But where does it come from? Most workers have no such rights, they just work, and that's it. Why are artists so priviledged, that their rights involve cntrolling the rest of the world's data transmission to protect their "fair due?"
Totally, it should be totally ok to walk into movie theaters, concerts, museums, and any other sort of service which presents art without paying for it. It's just art, all I'm doing is looking and touching, why should I have to pay for stuff like that? Stupid entitled artists wanting money for their contribution to society.
 

J Tyran

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Entitled said:
the Earth would keep on spinning if publishers wouldn't get quite THAT MUCH authority over our lives,
The publishers have zero authority over our lives, why do you believe you have some inherent right to consume digital content? The publishers offer entertainment for a fee, consumers have the choice to ignore it and go elsewhere. Thats as far as the "authority" goes, they control their content thats all.

I really do not understand why you believe in this digital socialism, no joke or slight intended but can you explain exactly why you hold this belief? Digital content is simply a modern storefront, just because its digital it doesn't become a huge free for all.

Sure a world like Star Trek would be great, a post need society where everyone does something because they enjoy doing it and want to get better at it. Artists can be great artists and would not have to worry about paying the rent and keep their utilities running.

Sadly the world doesn't work like that, because society cannot be trusted to pay someone for their efforts or creations we need regulation. No arguments about how hard regurgitation suck and how unworkable and unfair they become, thats the nature of legislation unfortunately. There will be winners and losers.

Ultimately though content creators need protection from the people that believe they do not have to give fair due in return for the entertainment they consume. Actors need to be paid, programmers want some recompense for the crunch where they neglected their family for weeks on end and the artists will have bills to pay.

Think of those guys, screw the higher laws that favor the big corporations and think of the little guys working for them. Those guys work the hardest, they are also the first to get pay cuts or get fired when sales do not meet expectations. Then they check stats and find millions of people decided to consume the content and not pay. If even half of those people actually paid for the content they still might have a job.

Piracy hurts the publishers sure but its the content creators on the front line who feel it the hardest. How can anyone morally justify putting people out of work or lowering their quality of life through pay cuts?
 

Entitled

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Holythirteen said:
Funny how that readjustment means you get stuff for free while the rest of us have to pay.
If I would just want free stuff, I alone could get it all right now illegally, while you tools keep obeyin' the law and paying for it.

Legal readjustment needs because I want free culure (free as in speech), where people in general can openly distribute and experience and create and modify all kinds of media, while creators keep getting rewarded at least reasonably (if not necessarily as well as now), without everyone having to bother with this ridiculously old-fashioned idea of publishers patrolling the Internet and making sure that we don't do the wrong kind of downloading. Which is both ridiculously unenforceable, and harmful (just look at all the Fair Use Youtube videos they have taken down on exaggerated claims).

There are multiple models to reach that, from the naively honor-based donation model to the cynical and harmful-to-artistic-integrity advertisement model, but all of them are more realistic than the current one.
 

Sargonas42

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Legion said:
I like this guy, not just for getting the message out in a clever way, but because he talks as a person to other people rather than a PR executive trying to reassure share holders.
That's because he doesn't have shareholders. That's the luxury of being an indie or small-venture studio that big publishers simply don't have. :/