Pointing out double standards does NOT make you sexist!

tkioz

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May 7, 2009
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There seems to be a trend online at the moment to jump up and down on anyone pointing out double standards against 'white straight males' automatically is a racist or a sexist. No white straight men are not a discriminated group, they (we) still hold a massive amount of power in the western world, but there are double standards that need to be addressed if we want true equality and pointing them out does not mean you hate women.

A few years ago there was a massive advertising campaign in Australia with the tag line "Violence again Women, Australia says no!", it was an important topic, one that needed addressing, but anyone who criticised it was automatically labelled a wife beating sexist. Most people who had an issue with it mainly had an issue with the fact that it focused excursively on physical abuse, which while devastating is far from the only form of domestic abuse. It also made the problem appear to be exclusively a 'male against female' problem, which is is most definitely not. Domestic abuse can be male against female, male against male, female against male, female against female, etc.

I personally grew up seeing things that if the genders were swapped would automatically be considered domestic violence, but since it was female against male, it wasn't. But when I attempted to point that out online that perhaps a better tag line would have been "Domestic Abuse, Australia says no!", I was howled down as a misogynist.

It's also a cultural problem, how often have we seen a 'comedy' where the female in a relationship strikes the male in anger and it's played for laughs when the male winces in real pain? Switch the genders in your mind and consider it. Yes males on average are stronger then females, but you know what? It doesn't matter, domestic abuse isn't just about physical violence, there is a large mental component where one partner dominates the other.

And woe to anyone who attempts to point out the funding disparity between female outreach programs for the victims of domestic abuse and male outreach programs, or even health programs, like the government funding of things like breast cancer and prostate cancer (which thankfully has gotten much closer to parity).

In fact if you switch the genders in a lot of things you can see a clear double standard.

For example imagine a 33 year old male teacher having an affair with a 16 year old female student. You intellectually want to string the creep up by his toes don't you? Good, that's the way it's suppose to be. They are taking advantage and it's dead creepy.

Yet switching the genders, a 33 year old female teacher having an affair with a 16 year old male student will get a different reaction completely, it's exactly the same thing, but it's seen less of a crime, there are men out there that see nothing wrong with it, indulging in prurient fantasies instead of realising just how damaging such a 'relationship' can be to a persons long term mental health. There are also issues regarding the sentencing and prosecution of female sexual offenders thanks to this stupid double standard.

Hell, there are people online who discount the existence of female against male rape. I remember a few years ago a news story from a respected site that played for laughs the story of a man who was grabbed by three women, held down, and sexually assaulted. Most of the comments were people laughing about it... Again switch the genders.

But apparently because it was a man he must have 'wanted it'. Never mind that the male sexual response (Erection and Ejaculation) is an INVOLUNTARY RESPONSE that can't be controlled. It's a sad reality that human sexual responses are outside of our control, a significant percentage of women who are sexually assaulted become sexually aroused during their attack and some even orgasm as a result, does that mean they 'wanted it?' OF COURSE NOT, IT WAS RAPE, their bodies betrayed them because of millions of years of evolution, it actually makes their mental recovery harder, yet because a man needs to obtain an erection, again a largely INVOLUNTARY response to stimuli, he is seen as 'wanting it'.

Bollocks.

No, pointing out the existence of these double standards does not make anyone a sexist. Of course there are some men out there that genuinely do hate woman, and wish to wind back the clock, but there are also women out there that hate men, both groups are a tiny tiny minority.

It's a sad sad society where a person is mocked or denied the help they need based on their gender . I don't hate women, not that I should have to say that, I don't think men are 'discriminated' against, but I do think there are issues that need to be addressed.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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I have a feeling this has been done before, but what gender thread hasn't.

I would encourage anyone to point out things they see as unfair.
For instance, the idea that women hitting men is funny, that one particularly is gross to me. It's stupid and insulting to pretty much everyone- `You can't be hurt because you're a man, she can't reeeally hurt you because she's a woman`.

Also the one about male victims of abuse by a teacher must have wanted it, though to be fair, I had to recently sit and listen to my boyfriend's mother talk about a grown man on the news being arrested for abducting a teenager about `how girls can be these days` and `he didn't know what he was getting into`. Barf. So, let's not pretend that's as one-sided as everyone thinks.

Still, I'm glad that you have created your own thread, because derailing threads about other gender issues really doesn't help. Perhaps that's why you didn't find much sympathy with the domestic violence thing.

To be honest, I think a lot of stereotypical portrayals of men can be extremely harmful.
I think we should be working harder to tear down the idea that men need to not ask for help, and act tough all the time.

Let us celebrate not having to be grunty unfeeling men by looking at this bunny.

What a pretty bunny.

EDIT: Ooooooooor not. Let's blame feminazis. Yeah. Let's do that.
 

Luna

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Apr 28, 2012
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Don't let it trouble you. Just point it out for what it is; a false accusation made in order to scare you away from criticizing a feminist agenda designed to help women and hurt men.
 

Colour Scientist

Troll the Respawn, Jeremy!
Jul 15, 2009
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Luna said:
Don't let it trouble you. Just point it out for what it is; a false accusation made in order to scare you away from criticizing a feminist agenda designed to help women and hurt men.
Wow, it only took two posts for this thread to descend into "fuck feminism".
Good job, Escapist.

I would ask how any of the problems mentioned in the OP were caused by feminism but, honestly, why bother?
Phasmal said:
I have a feeling this has been done before, but what gender thread hasn't.

I would encourage anyone to point out things they see as unfair.
For instance, the idea that women hitting men is funny, that one particularly is gross to me. It's stupid and insulting to pretty much everyone- `You can't be hurt because you're a man, she can't reeeally hurt you because she's a woman`.

Also the one about male victims of abuse by a teacher must have wanted it, though to be fair, I had to recently sit and listen to my boyfriend's mother talk about a grown man on the news being arrested for abducting a teenager about `how girls can be these days` and `he didn't know what he was getting into`. Barf. So, let's not pretend that's as one-sided as everyone thinks.

Still, I'm glad that you have created your own thread, because derailing threads about other gender issues really doesn't help. Perhaps that's why you didn't find much sympathy with the domestic violence thing.

To be honest, I think a lot of stereotypical portrayals of men can be extremely harmful.
I think we should be working harder to tear down the idea that men need to not ask for help, and act tough all the time.

Let us celebrate not having to be grunty unfeeling men by looking at this bunny.

What a pretty bunny.
Also, this.
I hope that's not a male bunny, if it is, it's my duty as a feminist to hurt it.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Phasmal said:
To be honest, I think a lot of stereotypical portrayals of men can be extremely harmful.
I think we should be working harder to tear down the idea that men need to not ask for help, and act tough all the time.

Let us celebrate not having to be grunty unfeeling men by looking at this bunny.

What a pretty bunny.
Oh oh, something I can contribute to!

Why yes, that is a pretty bunny.

No, wait, I've been side tracked.

What I was going to say is that I really get bothered by people who think I act like a stereotypical male because I've been programmed to do so by society, and not because I actually want to. Seriously, I like guns, and driving fast cars, and getting into fights, and lifting weights at the gym, and being an unfeeling grunting man. There's nothing bad about it or wrong with it, and I get really sick of people who tell me "it's ok to talk about your feelings" all the time. I don't act the way I do to impress people, or to be seen as manly, I do it because it's what I enjoy. It bugs me when people try to homogenize the entire population by saying that women need to act more like men and men need to act more like women because it'll bring about equality. Why can't we have womanly women, manly men, and people in between?

But goddamn that is a cute bunny.
 

Phasmal

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Dirty Hipsters said:
What I was going to say is that I really get bothered by people who think I act like a stereotypical male because I've been programmed to do so by society, and not because I actually want to. Seriously, I like guns, and driving fast cars, and getting into fights, and lifting weights at the gym, and being an unfeeling grunting man. There's nothing bad about it or wrong with it, and I get really sick of people who tell me "it's ok to talk about your feelings" all the time. I don't act the way I do to impress people, or to be seen as manly, I do it because it's what I enjoy. It bugs me when people try to homogenize the entire population by saying that women need to act more like men and men need to act more like women because it'll bring about equality. Why can't we have womanly women, manly men, and people in between?

But goddamn that is a cute bunny.
Of course we can have those things. I'd love those things.
My sister is quite feminine by nature, I don't want to change her.
But I don't like the idea that people HAVE to be those things.
I mean, I don't want to see little girls get forced into dresses, and boys forced out of them.

Please don't think I'm against traditionally masculine men or traditionally feminine women, that would certainly be the wrong message to take. But I am against a one-size-fits-all view of gender roles.
 

Zhukov

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The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.
 

Imp_Emissary

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One thing a lot of people like to say is that feminism is all about female problems only, because "screw men they have all the power".

However, one of the points of the whole equality thing is that by putting one sex into a role, you also make the other stuck in "their" role too.

For example; Women get shoehorned into jobs involving caregiving, Men try to start an all male nanny service(The Mannies if you wanted to know), and fail right away because no one wants to have men taking care of their kids "cause it isn't right".

I actually got a friend on the Escapist who had to quit a job in childcare for about the same reasons.

As the saying goes; "Ask not for whom the bell tolls. For it tolls for thee." Meaning when someone dies we all lose something. Likewise when one gender is given a cultural disadvantage, both suffer for it.

Also,

Phasmal said:
I have a feeling this has been done before, but what gender thread hasn't.
I would encourage anyone to point out things they see as unfair.
For instance, the idea that women hitting men is funny, that one particularly is gross to me. It's stupid and insulting to pretty much everyone- `You can't be hurt because you're a man, she can't reeeally hurt you because she's a woman`.

Also the one about male victims of abuse by a teacher must have wanted it, though to be fair, I had to recently sit and listen to my boyfriend's mother talk about a grown man on the news being arrested for abducting a teenager about `how girls can be these days` and `he didn't know what he was getting into`. Barf. So, let's not pretend that's as one-sided as everyone thinks.

Still, I'm glad that you have created your own thread, because derailing threads about other gender issues really doesn't help. Perhaps that's why you didn't find much sympathy with the domestic violence thing.

To be honest, I think a lot of stereotypical portrayals of men can be extremely harmful.
I think we should be working harder to tear down the idea that men need to not ask for help, and act tough all the time.

Let us celebrate not having to be grunty unfeeling men by looking at this bunny.

What a pretty bunny.

-_- Is that bunny eating a dandelion?

:D Yes it is.

EDIT: Ooooooooor not. Let's blame feminazis. Yeah. Let's do that.
 

tkioz

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May 7, 2009
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Zhukov said:
The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.
Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.
 

Foolery

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Jun 5, 2013
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Whoah, whoah, whoah. I hold power? News to me. Oh wait. You meant affluent white males, with connections to corporations and political ties. I'm just a stick in the mud. Nothing special. I come from a heritage of farmers and pioneer settlers. Some Metis blood as well.
 

tkioz

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Dead Century said:
Whoah, whoah, whoah. I hold power? News to me. Oh wait. You meant affluent white males, with connections to corporations and political ties. I'm just a stick in the mud. Nothing special. I come from a heritage of farmers and pioneer settlers. Some Metis blood as well.
I come from a similar background, and I don't mean we hold power, it's simply we've got less disadvantages compared to other genders and skin colours.
 

Foolery

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tkioz said:
Dead Century said:
Whoah, whoah, whoah. I hold power? News to me. Oh wait. You meant affluent white males, with connections to corporations and political ties. I'm just a stick in the mud. Nothing special. I come from a heritage of farmers and pioneer settlers. Some Metis blood as well.
I come from a similar background, and I don't mean we hold power, it's simply we've got less disadvantages compared to other genders and skin colours.
Oh don't mind me, I was being facetious. Skin colour doesn't really matter much in my part of Canada. It's money, connections, and family that counts. Plenty of my white and non-white friends went off to university straight after highschool because of their parents and grandparents funding it. I never had that option.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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tkioz said:
Zhukov said:
The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.
Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.
No, it's the vast majority of all domestic violence.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a joke, a liar or severely lacking in understanding of how the world works.
 

tkioz

Fussy Fiddler
May 7, 2009
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Zhukov said:
tkioz said:
Zhukov said:
The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.
Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.
No, it's the vast majority of all domestic violence.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a joke, a liar or severely lacking in understanding of how the world works.
Okay so you've got a magic crystal ball that tells you accurate statistics on crimes that are known to be under-reported. Good to know.

Never mind the fact there have been studies down on how the male victims of domestic abuse are even more unlikely to report it than women, never mind that you're completely ignoring gay and lesbian partnerships (news flash they are relationships like any other, some good, some bad, some terrifying)...

That's my main issue with the "Australia says no to violence against women", it sends a subtle message that you need to be in a 'traditional' relationship and be female for the government to give two shits about you.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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tkioz said:
Zhukov said:
tkioz said:
Zhukov said:
The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.
Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.
No, it's the vast majority of all domestic violence.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a joke, a liar or severely lacking in understanding of how the world works.
Okay so you've got a magic crystal ball that tells you accurate statistics on crimes that are known to be under-reported. Good to know.
And you have one that tells you otherwise?

You want stats? Here, have some bloody stats [http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/DVAustralia#_Toc309798375]. (Here's the same ones [http://www.domesticviolence.com.au/pages/domestic-violence-statistics.php] in a much shorter and easier to read version.)

Well, whaddaya know? Mostly male-of-female by some fucking huge margins. What a surprise! It's almost as if it's common sense that stronger people are more likely to beat up weaker people than the other way around.

Find me one statistic that says otherwise. One. Fucking one.

This is why I find "male rights advocates", or "double standard pointer-outers" or whatever you want to be called, to be such a silly joke. So desperate to find a double standard to point out that you have to start making them up.

Lastly, yes, I'm aware of gay and lesbian couples. Thing is, they're a tiny minority. Less than one percent in Australia [http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/2071.0main+features852012-2013]. Not large enough to have any significant impact on the numbers.
 

LetalisK

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tkioz said:
never mind that you're completely ignoring gay and lesbian partnerships (news flash they are relationships like any other, some good, some bad, some terrifying)...
Eh? Domestic abuse is independent of whether or not the two people are in a romantic relationship, so any study that defines it so narrowly to even exclude gay and lesbian partnerships is automatically suspect.