Pokemon Sun and Moon Aren't good Pokemon games.

Shoggoth2588

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Aerosteam said:
I'd rather have someone straight up tell me I can't go down a path instead of being blocked by a fucking tree or rock.

Fuck HM's.
That.

I'm enjoying Sun and Moon right now. I like how HMs are a thing of the past and as for the game being linear...well, it always felt like Pokemon games are linear. Soul Silver and Heart Gold let you catch different Pokemon in earlier routes after you became Champion and...got a maguffin I think but other than that I never felt much need to go back to previously explored caves or routes or towns in past Pokemon games. I like the characters and I like how everything seems more plot-driven: it's like Black/White and I really like that.

I do have a problem with Z-Moves though: First off, they felt like the kind of thing that should have been added before Mega Evolutions (which I like more) and I hate how there are no new Mega-Evos this gen (I legitamitely want to see a mega Vanilluxe and Zoroark in future...and Mega starters too...and Raichu). The biggest issue I have with Z-Moves though is how you have to sit through a lengthy, unskippable cutscene to use them. They can probably be turned off like normal move animations but the spectacle of watching these attacks is lost after the second or third time for me and it quickly feels like wasted time.

I'm just now getting to the Elite Four and I've got to mention this: The Elite Four battle theme is by far my favorite this gen. I've been enjoying the music for the most part but this is my favorite battle theme so far by a pretty wide margin.
 

Post Tenebrae Morte

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Elvis Starburst said:
Post Tenebrae Morte said:
And for the guy saying that this gen is worse than 4
Yikes, Gen 4 is what I put the highest amount of hours into. Though I don't remember a number of things in that one... I'm curious about what made ya dislike it? Maybe I don't remember it being pure trash, I was in my mid-teens around that time
It was a good combination of things, both involving the games themselves and what I felt of the series as a whole. Around this time, I had begun to somewhat tire of Pokemon, having played since Pokemon red in 98 when I was five. I loved my first experience, though gen 2 was freaking awesome (I even ordered Crystal from Nintendo themselves), and thought people were insane when they said gen 3 had too much water. I loved exploring the regions and the slow increase in storytelling as the series progressed, heck I still have the preorder exclusive Groudon coin from Nintendo, picking it over wind waker. But around gen 4, I was getting a bit tired (especially due to the legendaries, gen six and seven really helped ease that burden) and it didn't help that everything in 4 felt....meh. The gameplay felt slower, both in battle and in traversing the overworld . If I remember correctly, this is due to a lower framerate than games before and after. Sinnoh didn't really vibe with me either in terms of region interest, heck Unova didn't either hence why I plowed through that to get Pokemon for the pokebank. It is my hope that the inevitable remakes will solve the issues I had with gens 4 and 5, even with heart gold (which I love) it still had remnants of issues which irked me, though my love for gen 2 managed to cover that.

Gen 6 was what revitalized my interest in the series, and I haven't missed an entry yet. I felt the series stagnated after gen 3 until gen 6, despite some damn cool Pokemon like arceius, kyrum, or so.
 

Saelune

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Gundam GP01 said:
Saelune said:
Most of it's pokedex entries explicitly talk about ferrying people across water and it is called the "Transport" pokemon.
Again, it's a wild animal.

Just because people use it do to a thing doesn't mean that it was evolved with the intention to do that thing.

Horses werent created so we could ride them or so they could till our fields.

Cattle werent made for us to eat.

Sheep werent made for us to make clothes.

Dogs werent made to herd sheep.

And Lapras werent made to ferry people on their back.

But we make them do it anyway because why not? We can.
Lapras was made by a human for a fictional world with the idea that people just sit on them and travel across the sea. The Pokedex says this, and there was an entire season of Pokemon where Ash and friends sat on Lapras going from Island to Island. Even the original intro has Ash just sitting unaided on Lapras.
 

Saelune

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Gundam GP01 said:
Saelune said:
Gundam GP01 said:
Saelune said:
Most of it's pokedex entries explicitly talk about ferrying people across water and it is called the "Transport" pokemon.
Again, it's a wild animal.

Just because people use it do to a thing doesn't mean that it was evolved with the intention to do that thing.

Horses werent created so we could ride them or so they could till our fields.

Cattle werent made for us to eat.

Sheep werent made for us to make clothes.

Dogs werent made to herd sheep.

And Lapras werent made to ferry people on their back.

But we make them do it anyway because why not? We can.
Lapras was made by a human for a fictional world
A fictional world where it evolved via Darwinian natural selection as a wild animal that humans then harnessed for a purpose.


Saelune said:
with the idea that people just sit on them and travel across the sea. The Pokedex says this, and there was an entire season of Pokemon where Ash and friends sat on Lapras going from Island to Island. Even the original intro has Ash just sitting unaided on Lapras.
Humans can ride on a horses bareback and nude too. Yet we still have saddles and safety gear to help us ride horse more easily and safely, and it looks pretty god damn silly too.


Yet when we translate this actual, real world concept into the game it's suddenly too dumb for a series where parents regularly send out 10 year old kids into the world practically unaided to meet the animal kingdom's equivalent of gods, stuff them into a tiny ball, and use them to fight criminal organizations.

Really, of all the faults of Sun and Moon, the safety gear when riding on your pokeubers looking dumb is one of the weakest complaints I've seen.
Yeah it is a weak complaint, and a very minor one of mine. But it is what you have decided to challenge me on.

And Pokemon generally do not seem to "develop" like in the real world. There were not prehistoric versions of Pikachu that changed through the times. Pikachu just is what it is. Evolution in Pokemon is not equivalent to evolution in reality.
 

Saelune

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Gundam GP01 said:
Saelune said:
And Pokemon generally do not seem to "develop" like in the real world. There were not prehistoric versions of Pikachu that changed through the times. Pikachu just is what it is.
How do you know that? As far as I know, no pokemon games involve going that in depth with paleontology and biology.

In addition, there's an entire set of electric rodent pokemon that have shock pouches on their cheeks, and even share similar color schemes. [http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Pikachu-family_Pok%C3%A9mon]
Almost as if they could have come from one common ancestor, right?

Mew's various pokedex entries say that it has the genetic code of every pokemon inside of it, and that many scientists believe that it's the ancestors of all pokemon.

This video makes a good case for the standard early route bird pokemon in each game showing good evidence of Darwinian evolution in each of their designs.
And to top it all off, we even have examples of already existing pokemon changing significantly in response to new environmental stimulus with the new Alolan forms.
Saelune said:
Evolution in Pokemon is not equivalent to evolution in reality.
Right, what's commonly referred to as Evolution in the games is more accurately called metamorphosis. But there's still plenty of evidence for actual Darwinian evolution in the games, as I've shown above.
Game Theory is stupid. They always go too many steps beyond reasonable.

Second, Pokemon is not the most thought out fictional world. They pull stuff out of their asses game to game, and alot of what is true is because its a game, and conflicts with the anime and even the Pokedex entries.

I would love it if the Pokemon world were more thought out and considered, but the truth of it is it is not. Thats why all Pokemon lay eggs, Kanghaskhan always has a baby even when freshly hatched, and single sex Pokemon (even the only Male ones) can persist even without any native Dittos, a scientifically created Pokemon.
 

EternallyBored

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Saelune said:
Game Theory is stupid. They always go too many steps beyond reasonable.

Second, Pokemon is not the most thought out fictional world. They pull stuff out of their asses game to game, and alot of what is true is because its a game, and conflicts with the anime and even the Pokedex entries.

I would love it if the Pokemon world were more thought out and considered, but the truth of it is it is not. Thats why all Pokemon lay eggs, Kanghaskhan always has a baby even when freshly hatched, and single sex Pokemon (even the only Male ones) can persist even without any native Dittos, a scientifically created Pokemon.
Wouldn't putting a saddle on Lapras be a good example of them making the world more thought out and considered? the idea of riding on a shell bareback is absurd on its face, and in any sort of considered scenario you would do so with safety equipment and at least a harness or reins.

The previous assumption, that you just stand on Lapras' shell, or any of the other absurdities involved with the HM surf/fly and things like Pokemon size and shape that should make them unrideable or incredibly dangerous to ride.

I'd imagine that if we actually considered the mechanics behind Surf from previous games, the model in Sun/Moon is by far the most realistic/considered approach the company has ever taken. That, or those sleds they used in the Latias/os movie where the people are riding water sleds pulled by the Pokemon, certainly leaps better than any previous depiction in the games at least.

I get that you say its a minor complaint, but for someone that wants to see the world more fleshed out, the Sun/Moon incarnation would seem like it would be the best compromise between realism and gameplay mechanics.
 

Wrex Brogan

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kilenem said:
I don't want to sound like a old man who hates change because I can look at Pokemon Red and Blue and tell that they haven't aged that well. Even though other games like Super Mario Land 2, and Link's Awakening have.

From a technical standpoint its frustrating playing this game because I have the New 3DS and if there are more then 2 pokemon in a battle, you lose frames Its apparently worse with the Regular 3DS. My friend pointed out that this happens in X and Y, which is true but it isn't as bad. You also fight multiple pokemon in sun and moon more often. The 3DS might just be old hardware and the Rumored Pokemon Stars for Switch should run smother on the Nintendo Switch.

There are problems from a game design aspect. Everything is extremely slow in this game or time consuming. Its like 2 hours before you can leave on your Journey. Since they removed HM'S, most of the time they use people to Block you path and you get a small cut scene explaining why you can't advance. The game is extremely linear, there is very little to go back track and explore. You can only fish at certain spots in the water unlike past Pokemon.games where you could fish everywhere. As a heads up, save before you fight as the Champion of the pokemon league. This is because after you become the champ, it doesn't save and you have to fight a legendary pokemon, that is a one time encounter.

Most pokemon games are functional, encourage exploration and freedom unlike sun and Moon.
...you know, I recently restarted all the pokemon games - and even with the cutscenes, Sun and Moon isn't that much longer than most of the other games when it comes to starting your journey. Even good ol' Red and Blue, the poster-game for 'doing it our way' locked you down until you hit Cerulean city, which was a few hours into the game at least. As for linearity... honestly, outside of RBY and Gold/Silver, pokemon is pretty damn linear. It's been par for the course since Ruby/Sapphire - areas blocked by either people or HMs, only opening up after defeating the gym leaders in order, and the sole reason to return to routes was to hunt pokemon or access HM-locked items. It's... not new.

Now, I'm not saying Sun and Moon are perfect or that you can't find problems with it, but... yeah, the linearity complaint never seems to hold well for me, since pokemon's been grinding that rail since 2004. Besides, Black and White did the linearity thing waaaay worse than Sun and Moon did. -thinks back to celestial tower- waaaaay worse.

(the fishing thing is annoying though, I will grant you that - especially with the special spots that disappear if you move to quickly or reward an item instead, and the painfully low encounter rate for certain pokemon outside those spots. Yes, thank you game, I totally wanted a Pearl and not a Feebas, 700 bucks is worth way more than a Milotic to me.)
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Gundam GP01 said:
Wrex Brogan said:
kilenem said:
I don't want to sound like a old man who hates change because I can look at Pokemon Red and Blue and tell that they haven't aged that well. Even though other games like Super Mario Land 2, and Link's Awakening have.

From a technical standpoint its frustrating playing this game because I have the New 3DS and if there are more then 2 pokemon in a battle, you lose frames Its apparently worse with the Regular 3DS. My friend pointed out that this happens in X and Y, which is true but it isn't as bad. You also fight multiple pokemon in sun and moon more often. The 3DS might just be old hardware and the Rumored Pokemon Stars for Switch should run smother on the Nintendo Switch.

There are problems from a game design aspect. Everything is extremely slow in this game or time consuming. Its like 2 hours before you can leave on your Journey. Since they removed HM'S, most of the time they use people to Block you path and you get a small cut scene explaining why you can't advance. The game is extremely linear, there is very little to go back track and explore. You can only fish at certain spots in the water unlike past Pokemon.games where you could fish everywhere. As a heads up, save before you fight as the Champion of the pokemon league. This is because after you become the champ, it doesn't save and you have to fight a legendary pokemon, that is a one time encounter.

Most pokemon games are functional, encourage exploration and freedom unlike sun and Moon.
...you know, I recently restarted all the pokemon games - and even with the cutscenes, Sun and Moon isn't that much longer than most of the other games when it comes to starting your journey. Even good ol' Red and Blue, the poster-game for 'doing it our way' locked you down until you hit Cerulean city, which was a few hours into the game at least. As for linearity... honestly, outside of RBY and Gold/Silver, pokemon is pretty damn linear. It's been par for the course since Ruby/Sapphire - areas blocked by either people or HMs, only opening up after defeating the gym leaders in order, and the sole reason to return to routes was to hunt pokemon or access HM-locked items. It's... not new.

Now, I'm not saying Sun and Moon are perfect or that you can't find problems with it, but... yeah, the linearity complaint never seems to hold well for me, since pokemon's been grinding that rail since 2004. Besides, Black and White did the linearity thing waaaay worse than Sun and Moon did. -thinks back to celestial tower- waaaaay worse.

(the fishing thing is annoying though, I will grant you that - especially with the special spots that disappear if you move to quickly or reward an item instead, and the painfully low encounter rate for certain pokemon outside those spots. Yes, thank you game, I totally wanted a Pearl and not a Feebas, 700 bucks is worth way more than a Milotic to me.)
Really the best thing you can do is save in front of the fishing spot and soft reset if you dont get the mon you want.
Though feebas only evolves through trade post gen 3 because contests arent a thing anymore.
Which is dumb because they made it evolve through Beauty and level up which you could do by feeding it special pokeblocks - something that could have easily been replicated or modified to fit in with Pokemon Refresh and those new beans.
 

kilenem

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Kibeth41 said:
kilenem said:
6. you have to fight a legendary pokemon, that is a one time encounter.
That wasn't my point. After beating the Pokemon league you do not get a chance to save. So if you turn off you game because you've accidentally killed the legendary pokemon you resume to where you were before beating the pokemon league champion. Although I have been corrected that you get to fight this pokemon again.
 

kilenem

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Wrex Brogan said:
kilenem said:
I don't want to sound like a old man who hates change because I can look at Pokemon Red and Blue and tell that they haven't aged that well. Even though other games like Super Mario Land 2, and Link's Awakening have.

From a technical standpoint its frustrating playing this game because I have the New 3DS and if there are more then 2 pokemon in a battle, you lose frames Its apparently worse with the Regular 3DS. My friend pointed out that this happens in X and Y, which is true but it isn't as bad. You also fight multiple pokemon in sun and moon more often. The 3DS might just be old hardware and the Rumored Pokemon Stars for Switch should run smother on the Nintendo Switch.

There are problems from a game design aspect. Everything is extremely slow in this game or time consuming. Its like 2 hours before you can leave on your Journey. Since they removed HM'S, most of the time they use people to Block you path and you get a small cut scene explaining why you can't advance. The game is extremely linear, there is very little to go back track and explore. You can only fish at certain spots in the water unlike past Pokemon.games where you could fish everywhere. As a heads up, save before you fight as the Champion of the pokemon league. This is because after you become the champ, it doesn't save and you have to fight a legendary pokemon, that is a one time encounter.

Most pokemon games are functional, encourage exploration and freedom unlike sun and Moon.
...you know, I recently restarted all the pokemon games - and even with the cutscenes, Sun and Moon isn't that much longer than most of the other games when it comes to starting your journey. Even good ol' Red and Blue, the poster-game for 'doing it our way' locked you down until you hit Cerulean city, which was a few hours into the game at least. As for linearity... honestly, outside of RBY and Gold/Silver, pokemon is pretty damn linear. It's been par for the course since Ruby/Sapphire - areas blocked by either people or HMs, only opening up after defeating the gym leaders in order, and the sole reason to return to routes was to hunt pokemon or access HM-locked items. It's... not new.

Now, I'm not saying Sun and Moon are perfect or that you can't find problems with it, but... yeah, the linearity complaint never seems to hold well for me, since pokemon's been grinding that rail since 2004. Besides, Black and White did the linearity thing waaaay worse than Sun and Moon did. -thinks back to celestial tower- waaaaay worse.

(the fishing thing is annoying though, I will grant you that - especially with the special spots that disappear if you move to quickly or reward an item instead, and the painfully low encounter rate for certain pokemon outside those spots. Yes, thank you game, I totally wanted a Pearl and not a Feebas, 700 bucks is worth way more than a Milotic to me.)
What I mean by cutscene you walk to someone who is Blocking your way and it does a small cut scene to tell you that you can't go that way. With the exception of this one all of the pokemon games open world. When you got a HM you could go back to previous part of a game and explore a cave, go to a different island. This what I mean by it being Linear. It felt like the main quest wasn't the only thing you could do.
 

kilenem

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Post Tenebrae Morte said:
I disagree, quite a lot. Ever since Gen 5 and even back in Gen 2 with the Crystal edition (in which each third version would follow suite and add story and such), the games have become progressively more story-based. But despite this (though I love it, certainly gives the games a more impactful nature), they have never lost the essence of exploration, catching, and battling. In Gen 7, they've gotten rid of one of the most derided things in the series, the hidden machines, and replaced them with something far more fun and intuitive (the ride Pokemon). in fact, it directly contradicts your complaint of being unable to go back and explore, what with Charizard serving as the fly equivalent and is acquired relatively quickly on the second island. The story is there to provide motivation and keep players moving ahead, but it never forces you to not explore. As in all games, certain areas will be blocked off until you can come back later with the proper item or skill. And the game series in general has had its blocking npcs, so it's not anything new. Sure, you can fish wherever you'd like, but by relegating them to certain spots it becomes easier to tell where you'd actually like to fish, especially since they got rid of the tiresome multi-rod mechanic from the past.

A lot of this new generation is getting rid of the archaic while still appreciating the good that comes from the classic mechanics. Gamefreak hit it out of the park with this. And for the guy saying that this gen is worse than 4: go back and play gen 4. They were the dark point of the series, there was a reason others like myself stopped at gen 3 and didn't get back in till gen 6. The battling system has been refined even more and it is far more balanced than what we had back then, giving battles that are not just invigorating when it's two people against each other, but even when your simply fighting an npc.
This story is better because my favorite thing about Red and Blue is you aren't some destined Kid to save world. Sun, Moon, Red and Blue are just about some kid stopping some douche bags. I know this is a extremely dumb down way of looking at it.

Finding the HM fly was apart of exploring the game because its not important for you to beat the game. All of the riding pokemon you get are just handed to you and I think that is the game being liner and taking some of exploration away. Granted some of the HM's in the past games have been given to you and getting Surf from the Safari zone might've sucked for some people in Red and Blue. Surfing has always been a huge part of the game and the Charizard thing in Sun and Moon just makes it so the game is less of an open world since you can't travel to other Islands by water.

In defense of the multirod system the different Rods allowed you to catch higher level pokemon. Plus with the multi rod system you caught different pokemon based on witch rod you used. This could be cumbersome but Just like the Pokefinder it narrows down witch pokemon you are going to encounter, or the QR scanner device that allows you to catch a rare pokemon after scanning 10 QR codes. I like those systems.
 

kilenem

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Elvis Starburst said:
Post Tenebrae Morte said:
And for the guy saying that this gen is worse than 4
Yikes, Gen 4 is what I put the highest amount of hours into. Though I don't remember a number of things in that one... I'm curious about what made ya dislike it? Maybe I don't remember it being pure trash, I was in my mid-teens around that time
Gen 4 slow from a technical standpoint, Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but your character sprite moves a lot slower then the previous versions and you have to load the next area you walk into. I think
Cold Shiny said:
Just to reply to your critiques of the games, I think removing HM's was the single greatest design decision Game Freak has EVER made.

I've also been told by my brother (he is very far into the endgame content) that there is another opportunity to catch that legendary after the Elite Four, even if you just knock it out.
Surf is such a O.P move though, I felt like if the HM's didn't suck and were stronger people would hate them less.