Police Union Uses A Black Woman's Son In P.R. Photo After Attacking Her

[lil devils x]

I’m not laughing. I’m skeptical and tired of how you frame reality. And thanks for calling millions of indigenous activists nobody. Now go delete your fucking post dredging up the issue with my friend. I made a mistake and corrected it, that doesn’t give you a pass.

No one called indigenous activists nobody. If you don't want people to see you making BS up then don't post it. Your friend knows what I said as well, you are the one who keeps twisting everything. You claimed I said something I didn't. They know that, it is on you for not knowing that.

 

[Revnak]

No one called indigenous activists nobody. If you don't want people to see you making BS up then don't post it. Your friend knows what I said as well, you are the one who keeps twisting everything.

EDIT THE POST DEVILS

 

[lil devils x]

Guys I feel like you are all willfully misunderstanding each other. Why not ask for clarifications to understand better than emotionally lashing out? Kae and Revnak are saying we should abolish the police. So I will ask. Let us assume that we all agree that cops are bad. What would you do practically to replace them when we need to be protected from violent crime or when something is stolen from us or someone is kidnapped?

I was a cop for years in a community police, rapid-response and detective capacity. I have a seen a lot.

And I hate cops.

The police attracts bad people. It also attracts good people. But you must enforce bad laws and be in a destructive culture. This happens in every police force I know of. The good ones turn a blind eye, they leave or they are bullied out. They cause damage everywhere they go.

And sometimes they protect us. Sometimes.

I think we should tear down the police and replace it with something new. Something that resembles what the police was supposed to be when first established. They must be protectors and investigators working with the consent of the community. They must be recruited and trained in a completely different way. They must be held more accountable. For it to be this way we have to tear down the police and start all over again. We do not have to call them police and they will do a different function but there will be official people trained to deal with bad situations. They must be held more accountable than most citizens and they must be lower in the priority of response depending on the situation.

And yes they must not be the first priority for dealing with crime. We must abolish capitalism and we must invest in stopping the causes of crime (education, income inequality) and we must invest in welfare and community resources.

I agree that they have to be replaced, retrained and recruited in a different way, but I am not seeing how it is possible to completely remove the existing and build a new BECAUSE the police themselves and their supporters will prevent that from happening. The best we can do is pay them more and restructure the existing. Why would the current police just sit there and allow you to make a new organization they know will replace them without sabotaging you effort?

 

[lil devils x]

EDIT THE POST DEVILS

Maybe I should ask them if I should edit it? I already have houseman on ignore, I am getting the feeling from your recent attacks that I made a mistake by giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Crystal Violet]

I agree that they have to be replaced, retrained and recruited in a different way, but I am not seeing how it is possible to completely remove the existing and build a new BECAUSE the police themselves and their supporters will prevent that from happening. The best we can do is pay them more and restructure the existing. Why would the current police just sit there and allow you to make a new organization they know will replace them without sabotaging you effort?

This is an ideological position. I have considered the practicals of it but it would be boring to explain. I would just say that we should not be asking the current police consent to abolish and rebuild. The current police just leave. If you then make a new force with new training where they are held more accountable and are restricted in their ability to follow violent and authoritarian tendencies you can open recruitment to the old ones again. You don't must take my word for it but I can say certainly that none of the bad ones will come back because they will mess how good it was for them when they could be fascist and they will rage about how the SJWs ruined their sanctioned thug behaviour.

 

[lil devils x]

You mean the link? The link that demonstrates the existence of an armed militia? You mean the link that lists CHAZ as some kind of template, when crime spiked once the police pulled out, before the whole thing collapsed? You mean that?

The entire thing seems more like an argument for replacing a police force with a militia force. I'm dubious of the difference.



That isn't an answer.



Also not an answer.

Yes, of course I might be wrong. I might be wrong about a lot of things. You might be wrong. "What if you're wrong" isn't a counter-argument.




And were these situations where you yourself were threatened, or when others were threatened?



Actually, on average, the world's getting better, not worse.

I'm not attributing that solely to capitalism mind you. But claiming everything bad in the world is due to capitalism is just as assinine as claiming everything good is due to it as well.



And would police make that state of affairs worse or better?



The answer is no to all questions. But most of what you're describing comes off as an argument for more police, not less of them.



Because murder, kidnapping, and starvation never happened before capitalism.

Seriously, why do these ideas keep coming up? Either capitalism is responsible for everything bad, or for everything good. Neither of these positions are tenable.



Let's take that as being true. Exploitation isn't the sole purview of capitalism. You only have to look at China or the Soviet Union, or heck, all of human history for evidence of that. Also, even if we focus on capitalist countries, the United States is even more capitalist than Australia, and has far more geo-political influence. By your logic, it should have less crime than Oz, not more.

Saying "get rid of capitalism and everything will be better" isn't really an argument. All the problems of the world didn't evaporate when we got rid of feudalism or mercantilism. They certainly weren't solved when, in the 20th century, various countries adopted socialism.

Also, I actually looked it up. If we're focusing on police killings, the most peaceful countries in the world are Switzerland, Denmark, and Iceland, whereas the most violent is Venezuela. The former are capitalist, the latter is socialist. Which countries are those three exploiting?

In case you're asking whether I think "capitalism is peace, socialism is murder," no, of course not. But there's no real linear relationship between an economic system and the level of police brutality.

(Seriously, how the hell did a discussion about policing get entwined with economic systems?)



I love your logic. It's the logic of "X has a problem, let's get rid of X."

I noticed that no-one answered my original question. The police in the United States kill about 1000 people per year. Annual gun deaths come to around 40,000. If the police were removed, would the latter figure go up, or go down? And that's a question that every country in the world would have to answer, and not just gun deaths, crime in general.

Given that Kae is in Mexico, and most of the police in Mexico are corrupt, as it is one of the more corrupt nations existing on earth, I understand completely how Kae would feel the world would be better off without them existing. People generally should avoid the police at all costs in Mexico, he is not wrong about that. But that is due to corruption, and lack of accountability for corruption. Instead of abolishing law enforcement all together, I would like to see a system more in place like that in the Netherlands and other nations that have found good means to prevent it from happening. We have very little protection in the US to help fight corruption as well, especially considering the very narrow definition that is used here.

 

[lil devils x]

This is an ideological position. I have considered the practicals of it but it would be boring to explain. I would just say that we should not be asking the current police consent to abolish and rebuild. The current police just leave. If you then make a new force with new training where they are held more accountable and are restricted in their ability to follow violent and authoritarian tendencies you can open recruitment to the old ones again. You don't must take my word for it but I can say certainly that none of the bad ones will come back because they will mess how good it was for them when they could be fascist and they will rage about how the SJWs ruined their sanctioned thug behaviour.

The problem in the US is that the Police Union holds power and at present, in most regions, the majority of the population is who is giving them that power. Any attempt to replace them will be sabotaged by them, and they have the power to do so. By having a competing organization, you are essentially declaring war on them and they will likely win the fight against doing so due to the majority of the population in the US giving them that power.

I had initially thought the same way you did about having another organization ready to go to replace them and do it right from the ground up, but then I realized the existing police will never ever allow that to happen here. By having the existing organization involved, we may be able to get way with making the permanent changes we need by paying them more, essentially bringing them to go along with the changes.

 

[Wintermute]

If you guys abolish your police, can I have them? Thanks.

 

[Houseman]

You never explained, lil. Was your uncle the sheriff or did your uncle call the police? Was this two different uncles?

 

[lil devils x]

If you guys abolish your police, can I have them? Thanks.

What country are you in?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

You mean the link? The link that demonstrates the existence of an armed militia? You mean the link that lists CHAZ as some kind of template, when crime spiked once the police pulled out, before the whole thing collapsed? You mean that?

The entire thing seems more like an argument for replacing a police force with a militia force. I'm dubious of the difference.

Then you didn't read it, the EZLN doesn't use it's militia as it's police force, it's a task delegated to an elected local.

Maybe I should ask them if I should edit it?

Hey now, even beyond anything else, threads shouldn't cross contaminate. It would be good to edit those things out.

 

[Crystal Violet]

You'd need to elaborate. Police forces, or rough equivalents, have existed well before capitalism (if we defined capitalism as something at emerged around the 16th century from mercantilism). Police forces are operated by the state, while capitalism is an economic system.

I do not 100% agree with him but I am against capitalism and maybe I can elaborate. On a community scale the police are more prone to aggressing poor areas and this will always happen with income inequality. But in fact the system of laws are more suited to protecting companies and corporations than people. A person can go to jail very quickly for stealing $100 but a company can hold back thousands of dollars of wages and they will be expected to give the money back if it is brought to court and maybe they will pay a fine. This is an example. I do not say that capitalism ending will solve everything and that we must replace capitalism with total anarchy or the type of socialism they had in the USSR but many of the problems I point out could be resolved better with a modern Marxist system proposed by French economic theorists.

I'm in no way suggesting that Devils and me are equivalent. But I've commented before that the people who want to abolish the police tend to be the people who have the least to lose from said abolition. So far, the thread seems to be proving me correct.

Yes but on the other side there are the people who have the most to lose by retaining the police. I do not believe that the police should be replaced with nothing but for many people in the world (mostly POC) it is more harmful for there to be police than not.

 

[lil devils x]

Then you didn't read it, the EZLN doesn't use it's militia as it's police force, it's a task delegated to an elected local.



Hey now, even beyond anything else, threads shouldn't cross contaminate. It would be good to edit those things out.

Yea, because I was the one who made that Shit up and brought it here right? I don't see their name used even if they know who they are. Hey, It's fine to ridicule me for getting sick and have it rubbed in that not only can I not do everything I used to do, but I also have to listen to trolls tell me how I am just making it up or some BS because OFC I would have to be for any of this to have happened to me, right? I am thrilled at least my pain every time I inhale is providing you the jolly laughter I said you needed.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Yea, because I was the one who made that Shit up and brought it here right? I don't see their name used even if they know who they are.

Indeed, Revnak brought it up first, then edited out since it was a mistake. I edited it out too.

 

[Crystal Violet]

The problem in the US is that the Police Union holds power and at present, in most regions, the majority of the population is who is giving them that power. Any attempt to replace them will be sabotaged by them, and they have the power to do so. By having a competing organization, you are essentially declaring war on them and they will likely win the fight against doing so due to the majority of the population in the US giving them that power.

Yes I agree you are identifying the problem. For these problems we must find a solution that will not happen without major restructuring of the whole USA political system, which is what the people who say we should abolish the police are calling for.

I had initially thought the same way you did about having another organization ready to go to replace them and do it right from the ground up, but then I realized the existing police will never ever allow that to happen here. By having the existing organization involved, we may be able to get way with making the permanent changes we need by paying them more, essentially bringing them to go along with the changes.

I can only speak from my personal experience (which YMMV) but this will be almost impossible because of the culture that exists in police forces.

 

[lil devils x]

Indeed, Revnak brought it up first, then edited out since it was a mistake. I edited it out too.

But of course the whole accusing me of making up shit is fine and I should leave that up though right?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

But of course the whole accusing me of making up shit is fine and I should leave that up though right?

In this case it's about a person not part of this particular conversation.

 

[lil devils x]

Yes I agree you are identifying the problem. For these problems we must find a solution that will not happen without major restructuring of the whole USA political system, which is what the people who say we should abolish the police are calling for.



I can only speak from my personal experience (which YMMV) but this will be almost impossible because of the culture that exists in police forces.

The biggest obstacle we have to making any changes IS the police Union and the power the communities provide them. They are why this is as bad is it is now, so I am having difficulty seeing any way of doing anything without having to work with them in some capacity. At least not in the current environment. I want to see changes in my lifetime and I am not sure I will if we try to push a different route.

 

[lil devils x]

In this case it's about a person not part of this particular conversation.

No, it was about me. If they asked me to take it down I would do it in a heart beat. I am not seeing why I owe you any special favors at this point.

EDIT: That work better for you? I took out their nation of origin and any reference, I think. If that was the post you were talking about. You're welcome. I just don't have it in me to be an arse just because you were.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Guys I feel like you are all willfully misunderstanding each other. Why not ask for clarifications to understand better than emotionally lashing out? Kae and Revnak are saying we should abolish the police. So I will ask. Let us assume that we all agree that cops are bad. What would you do practically to replace them when we need to be protected from violent crime or when something is stolen from us or someone is kidnapped?

I was a cop for years in a community police, rapid-response and detective capacity. I have a seen a lot.

And I hate cops.

The police attracts bad people. It also attracts good people. But you must enforce bad laws and be in a destructive culture. This happens in every police force I know of. The good ones turn a blind eye, they leave or they are bullied out. They cause damage everywhere they go.

And sometimes they protect us. Sometimes.

I think we should tear down the police and replace it with something new. Something that resembles what the police was supposed to be when first established. They must be protectors and investigators working with the consent of the community. They must be recruited and trained in a completely different way. They must be held more accountable. For it to be this way we have to tear down the police and start all over again. We do not have to call them police and they will do a different function but there will be official people trained to deal with bad situations. They must be held more accountable than most citizens and they must be lower in the priority of response depending on the situation.

And yes they must not be the first priority for dealing with crime. We must abolish capitalism and we must invest in stopping the causes of crime (education, income inequality) and we must invest in welfare and community resources.

Indeed. There is a place for when someone puts egregious harm on a community and needs to be dealt with swiftly, but the police as an organization is bad for even that. Policing should entirely be a community driven function, like a fire department. As all police are truly good for are capturing problematic people after the fact.

Rojava are moving towards a good system where the citizens are taught, in general, de-escalation tactics to make the community as a whole responsive to sudden threats, and are planning on disbanding their police forces when they do so.