(Politic) Alabama passes bill to ban abortion completely

[Schadrach]

That's not really the argument though is it. The thing they have against gay marriage isn't that people will be forced to get gay married,

To be fair, had Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission gone differently, there was the very real risk that such people would be forced to have gay marriages performed in their churches, and that their pastors might be compelled to officiate gay weddings.

And again, a lot of women voted for those people too,

You can go farther than that - the bill's author and the governor who signed it into law are both women as well. That's what I actually find amusing about all the "bunch of old white men want to control women's uteruses" talk - it's a law written by a woman and ultimately approved by another woman.

 

[Schadrach]

that is one thing dems do that's starting to piss me off. We live in a post-rules world right now. People are openly ignoring subpoenas, and Nancy Pelosi is out there thinking she might hold them in contempt of congress. No girl, that shit is straight up illegal! You can't ignore a subpoena! Get the DC police to go arrest them and jail them until they agree to adhere to the summons.

Aside from DC police being the wrong law enforcement body (that falls to the Sergeant at Arms of the United States House of Representatives for cases of contempt of Congress), you're dead on. That and that if held in contempt of congress they have to hold them in the House's jail, which might possibly cause logistical issues depending on how many ignored subpoenas there end up being.

This is a different tune than what you were singing about Kavanaugh and Ford.

How so?

It is literally the job of the Sergeant at Arms to arrest people who ignore Congressional subpoenas and place them in the House's jail until the issue of contempt is resolved (which generally means complying with the subpoena). Regular judges have that same authority. The only real defense is if the House is issuing subpoenas outside their authority (that is if they were demanding people appear before them for reasons unrelated to the proper business of the legislature). Which you'll notice the White House has been actively suggesting even though it's probably a losing battle. It's an obvious stalling tactic in the hopes of being able to drag the fight out for political reasons, so Trump can sell it as Democrats being irrationally after his presidency even after "NO COLLUSION! NO OBSTRUCTION!".

It is not in the authority of the FBI to investigate state level crimes, and it is not in the authority of the Montgomery County, MD police to start investigations based on media statements or statements made to Congress about events over three decades old. Literally, if Ford actually wanted an investigation into her accusation, she just has to file a complaint with the Montgomery County, MD police, as I've pointed out time and again. She could have done so at any time in the past 30-odd years, and she could do so even now. Kavanaugh is not immune to the law, especially not state law.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I have no words fit for this utter debacle in Alabama and Georgia.

Seriously, I'm disgusted on a level that's close to visceral rage. Alabama is now a state where if a relative rapes an underage family member, and that victim aborts the pregnancy in the first few weeks (while it's still basically just a fertilized egg) she and the doctor will get more jail time than the rapist pedo relative.

Even if we leave aside every other part of this mess...That alone is one of the most unacceptably horrible things I've ever heard of.

 

[Majestic Manatee_v1legacy]

Bill sponsor Sen. Clyde Chambliss, a Republican, specified that the law would not prohibit the destruction of fertilized eggs used for in-vitro fertilization, only those conceived within a woman's body. "The egg in the lab doesn't apply. It's not in a woman. She's not pregnant," Chambliss said, in floor debate with Democratic Sen. Rodger Smitherman.

When there is doubt this is targeting women's autonomy in favour of genuinely protecting the sanctity of life, Clyde Chambliss will set the record straight.

They want to turn back the clock, so be it. George Carlin is now resurrected.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Basically, the forcing is in having to live in a society which treats gay married folks the same as normal couples

They are normal couples.

Right..?

They disagree. You first have to start from there.

There being women who have been convinced to vote against their interests is not a new thing here, hell there were even women against the right for women to vote and work, that does not somehow validate that to not be against women, they do not somehow become a poster child to show that this is somehow not targeting to be harmful to women, because it is. In addition, those who voted for these men did not necessarily vote for them due to this issue. It is telling however, that the only people who voted for this bill were white men, not women. There are women in the legislature but they did not vote for it. This decision to remove a woman's right to her own body was decided entirely by men.

I never said this wasn't anti-woman, I said it wasn't men trying to control women's bodies. It's still anti-woman, just a different form of it.

It's infantalizing to treat women who can be just as religiously fundamentalist as any man with being against their best interests, they're not more so than any muslim who denies themselves bacon due to some silly belief. Women can just opine differently about morals and what's coming after death and they can enact those policies and you have to start seeing that as equivalent to men doing the same if you wish for true equality to come into place.

Men voted for women to get the vote when women had no vote to give those men. If they really wanted to control women's bodies they'd never have done so. You're treating it as an obvious thing simply because it's right and you don't celebrate it cause you shouldn't have to celebrate the bare minimum which puts you in a place where instead of counting your blessings you're dissatisfied when one of them is threatened.

Pretending we live in a world where everyone gets what they ought to have and that merely deserving rights means you will be afforded them diminishes the great achievement it is when people end up actually gaining them.

Basically, the forcing is in having to live in a society which treats gay married folks the same as normal couples

Oh the poor whittle babies.

Black and hispanic folks and arabs who believe in the muslim faith all are way more homophobic actually. I remember reading in britain about people being against lgbt education in schools and they weren't white babies, they were tan ones.

It's not the race, it's the religiosity.

 

[Silvanus]

Right..?

They disagree. You first have to start from there.

Start there and go where?

Everybody here knows that these people disagree. But there's no rational compromise on this: one side denies the basic humanity of the other and wishes to invade their right to privacy in order to enforce their own rigid moral code; the other side wants to be left alone. One side is entirely right.

What movements do you expect people to make to meet these people halfway?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

There being women who have been convinced to vote against their interests is not a new thing here, hell there were even women against the right for women to vote and work, that does not somehow validate that to not be against women, they do not somehow become a poster child to show that this is somehow not targeting to be harmful to women, because it is. In addition, those who voted for these men did not necessarily vote for them due to this issue. It is telling however, that the only people who voted for this bill were white men, not women. There are women in the legislature but they did not vote for it. This decision to remove a woman's right to her own body was decided entirely by men.

I never said this wasn't anti-woman, I said it wasn't men trying to control women's bodies. It's still anti-woman, just a different form of it.

It's infantalizing to treat women who can be just as religiously fundamentalist as any man with being against their best interests, they're not more so than any muslim who denies themselves bacon due to some silly belief. Women can just opine differently about morals and what's coming after death and they can enact those policies and you have to start seeing that as equivalent to men doing the same if you wish for true equality to come into place.

Men voted for women to get the vote when women had no vote to give those men. If they really wanted to control women's bodies they'd never have done so. You're treating it as an obvious thing simply because it's right and you don't celebrate it cause you shouldn't have to celebrate the bare minimum which puts you in a place where instead of counting your blessings you're dissatisfied when one of them is threatened.

Pretending we live in a world where everyone gets what they ought to have and that merely deserving rights means you will be afforded them diminishes the great achievement it is when people end up actually gaining them.

Who is " they", not the "same men" voted for women to have the right to vote. All men =\= the same men who vote to take away a woman's right to her own body, only some of them have done so. The issue of course is this is just one of many attempts to " police a woman's body", If a man is sexually assaulted they do not attempt to blame it on his dress or say that "he had it coming" as they do women because they do not view or treat men and women's bodies the same. As you can see here in Majestic Manatee's post, this is entirely about policing women's bodies, as the fertilized egg on it's own is irrelevant to them:

Bill sponsor Sen. Clyde Chambliss, a Republican, specified that the law would not prohibit the destruction of fertilized eggs used for in-vitro fertilization, only those conceived within a woman's body. "The egg in the lab doesn't apply. It's not in a woman. She's not pregnant," Chambliss said, in floor debate with Democratic Sen. Rodger Smitherman.

When there is doubt this is targeting women's autonomy in favour of genuinely protecting the sanctity of life, Clyde Chambliss will set the record straight.

They want to turn back the clock, so be it.

You're treating it as an obvious thing simply because it's right and you don't celebrate it cause you shouldn't have to celebrate the bare minimum which puts you in a place where instead of counting your blessings you're dissatisfied when one of them is threatened.
Pretending we live in a world where everyone gets what they ought to have and that merely deserving rights means you will be afforded them diminishes the great achievement it is when people end up actually gaining them.

What is that supposed to mean? I am put in a place where I "am dissatisfied when my rights are threatened"? I was violently raped as a child by a man I had never spoken to. The stress of that lead to me to wake up in a hospital with my stomach being pumped after they brought me back from suicide. If I had become impregnated with the rapists baby, there is nothing they could have done to stop me from ending my life at that point. I know I am not the only one who feels that way in that situation. My best friend was raped, my sisters were raped, my cousin was raped many of the girls I grew up with were raped, my own grandmother was raped. I was forced to fight off would be kidnappers, I was forced to fight off a man who was trying to murder me in my sleep. I have been threatened so many times throughout my life by men I have lost count. This is how women are forced to live in the US, like we're somehow safer here than elsewhere right? This should just be something we should be okay with and count our blessings? Why would "count your blessing's" even enter your head as something to say to someone in the first place?

Pretending we live in a world where everyone gets what they ought to have and that merely deserving rights means you will be afforded them diminishes the great achievement it is when people end up actually gaining them.

What kind of shit is this? seriously, you think that women do not appreciate the "rights they have" because they could have it worse or something? So we should become vigilantes to be able to be safe and have bodily autonomy or something because the government will not protect us? What exactly do you mean we should do by this BS? The women who suffer and die should just continue to do so and count their blessings because you think they haven't fought hard enough to earn them or some shit? IDk what you meant by that, but seriously, it would have been better if you hadn't. It is a crock when you thought it in the first place and even worse when you actually said it.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

Start there and go where?
...
What movements do you expect people to make to meet these people halfway?

"Meet me in the middle", says the unjust man.
You take a step forward and he takes a step back.
"Meet me in the middle", says the unjust man.

That is the only direction any attempts to reaching a compromise with anti-lgbt people will go. If you give them an inch, they'll take the entire fucking coastline. The only solution is to tell them where to shove their beliefs and let them die mad.

 

[Erttheking]

Black and hispanic folks and arabs who believe in the muslim faith all are way more homophobic actually. I remember reading in britain about people being against lgbt education in schools and they weren't white babies, they were tan ones.

It's not the race, it's the religiosity.

Hm, considering this information, let me process it and see how it affects my reply.

My reply has not changed.

So I shall repeat myself. Oh, the wittle babies.

They disagree. You first have to start from there.

Ok. They disagree. Fuck em. We'll move on, with or without them. Question. Do you think we got as far as we did by asking nicely? By asking the religious assholes who think that homosexuality is a sin and homosexuals should be stoned if they could just be nicer?

I think it's very clear you've never had to deal with a day of persecution in your life.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Right..?

They disagree. You first have to start from there.

Start there and go where?

Everybody here knows that these people disagree. But there's no rational compromise on this: one side denies the basic humanity of the other and wishes to invade their right to privacy in order to enforce their own rigid moral code; the other side wants to be left alone. One side is entirely right.

What movements do you expect people to make to meet these people halfway?

If you refuse to make a rational compromise, you lose the right to expect them to care about one either, so then this becomes a battle over power and over who oppresses whom, where in some cases you will have abortion getting banned like we see here, which is no good. Just because we disagree that this thing is oppression to them it doesn't mean that they don't feel like they are indeed oppressed by it. Even if you don't care for compromise and want to just crush them into obscurity, you still have to tackle their action as though it really is coming from oppressed people, even if you yourself disagree that they are.


Ultimately, my point here is highlighting that treating people who claim to be oppressed as inherently moral in whatever action they take is the problem, since then you will make a system come into place where being oppressed in your mind gives you carte blanche to do whatever you want and feel justified.

I can see valid arguments for why some people from all sides are not oppressed even though they believe that they are. Our first step should be removing the sainthood attached to being perceived as being oppressed from our culture.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Right..?

They disagree. You first have to start from there.

Start there and go where?

Everybody here knows that these people disagree. But there's no rational compromise on this: one side denies the basic humanity of the other and wishes to invade their right to privacy in order to enforce their own rigid moral code; the other side wants to be left alone. One side is entirely right.

What movements do you expect people to make to meet these people halfway?

If you refuse to make a rational compromise, you lose the right to expect them to care about one either, so then this becomes a battle over power and over who oppresses whom, where in some cases you will have abortion getting banned like we see here, which is no good. Just because we disagree that this thing is oppression to them it doesn't mean that they don't feel like they are indeed oppressed by it. Even if you don't care for compromise and want to just crush them into obscurity, you still have to tackle their action as though it really is coming from oppressed people, even if you yourself disagree that they are.


Ultimately, my point here is highlighting that treating people who claim to be oppressed as inherently moral in whatever action they take is the problem, since then you will make a system come into place where being oppressed in your mind gives you carte blanche to do whatever you want and feel justified.

I can see valid arguments for why some people from all sides are not oppressed even though they believe that they are. Our first step should be removing the sainthood attached to being perceived as being oppressed from our culture.

What is considered a rational compromise here? One persons right's end where another's begins. One does not have the right to force their will upon another's body. One's right to determine what is done to their own body supersedes another's right to force their will upon them. No, we should not treat people who are not oppressed as if they are oppressed. That is nonsense and only shows ignorance of what oppression actually is. Oppression is not considered "sainthood" in western culture and again, that just shows ignorance of what it actually means to be oppressed. There is no system that promotes being able to do as you please if you are oppressed, instead we have the opposite as we have a system that works to keep those oppressed from being able to do anything about it. All I can see from your post here is that you do not even understand what it means or how it is treated systematically or by society as a whole.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

Maybe I'm biased since I'm female, but I hate the idea of not allowing women the right to decide for themselves because of "religious reasons". At least let the ones under specific circumstances do it!

I'm not opposed to people being Pro-Life, I can live and let live... unless they're the kind of asshole who blows up clinics and kills doctors. (Pro-Life my ass!)

 

[Dr. Thrax]

If you refuse to make a rational compromise, you lose the right to expect them to care about one either

There is no "rational compromise" on civil rights. This is just more idiotic centrism that enables oppressors to continue oppressing.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Two things. One, they NEVER gave a damn about rational compromise and pretending otherwise is historical revisionism of the finest caliber. Two, equality is not oppression, regardless of how many crying ***** babies whine about it.

People are DYING because of this, and you claim that we need to take the claims of people who are causing their deaths at face value? (Where the fuck was this attitude when you were talking about trans Tumblr users?)

Congratulations Dreiko. You're the white moderate. You think you can place a timetable on another man's freedom. You care more about a negative peace in the absence of tension than a positive peace in the presence of justice.

 

[Jarrito3002]

Poor Dreiko getting taken to the back of the woodshed. Moral of the story is you can't central position everything

He did make a point and that is overlooked in most of the response I have seen to this. Woman did write this bill and passed this bill are also celebrating this bill. Now the rich white man dictating woman bodies is a strong narrative but there are plenty of woman who they are married also pushing this agenda and because the man told them. These woman want to impose their view of "being a woman" just as strong as male counterparts and they get the privilege to go unnoticed and pull their snake ways in the shadows. That saying behind every "great" man and all that.

Now I have straddled I used to be pro life but I and strongly pro choice I understand that many think the life starts at embryo but with so much funding cut in assisting these children when they are born and leaving to the wolves essentially I changed position and life is complicated so which ever plays out I would ride pro choice. I hope other states can buck this trend I know Ohio is more draconian than Alabama and Georgia not far behind. Also I pray Roe V Wade is not overturned because of this nonsense though it will be a strong chance this is the endgame.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Poor Dreiko getting taken to the back of the woodshed. Moral of the story is you can't central position everything

He did make a point and that is overlooked in most of the response I have seen to this. Woman did write this bill and passed this bill are also celebrating this bill. Now the rich white man dictating woman bodies is a strong narrative but there are plenty of woman who they are married also pushing this agenda and because the man told them. These woman want to impose their view of "being a woman" just as strong as male counterparts and they get the privilege to go unnoticed and pull their snake ways in the shadows. That saying behind every "great" man and all that.

Now I have straddled I used to be pro life but I and strongly pro choice I understand that many think the life starts at embryo but with so much funding cut in assisting these children when they are born and leaving to the wolves essentially I changed position and life is complicated so which ever plays out I would ride pro choice. I hope other states can buck this trend I know Ohio is more draconian than Alabama and Georgia not far behind. Also I pray Roe V Wade is not overturned because of this nonsense though it will be a strong chance this is the endgame.

Of course Indoctrination is a strong tool for conformity, that is why they go to these extremes they do to indoctrinate people as children, it isn't like I was the first child they tied to a chair and made to read the bible aloud. The sheer amount of peer pressure from religious groups in my school made it difficult for many kids not to feel excluded if they did not participate. That is the whole point, it isn't like they only indoctrinated males into this as children, there were plenty of females who were indoctrinated as well, HOWEVER, only white men voted on this legislation to have it passed, the only three women who voted on it voted against it although a female governor did not veto it and she should be ashamed.

Yes, women can and do police other women's bodies, but this is a policing of women's bodies none the less. When you research their beliefs however, chances are they were indoctrinated into them as children and were never given time to form an opinion of their own. Where I come from, indoctrination is condemned, and children are not allowed to be inducted into religious societies, as that is reserved only for adults and the decision has to be entirely their own. Instead of indoctrination, people are encouraged to learn about the world and all the religions before making any sort of decision or commitment to a set of beliefs. It is seen as unethical to indoctrinate anyone and not give them an educated choice.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Maybe I'm biased since I'm female, but I hate the idea of not allowing women the right to decide for themselves because of "religious reasons". At least let the ones under specific circumstances do it!

I'm not opposed to people being Pro-Life, I can live and let live... unless they're the kind of asshole who blows up clinics and kills doctors. (Pro-Life my ass!)

The same governor with "life is sacred" views signed an execution order on the same day, and signed 6 more previously.

Just...putting that out there

 

[Jarrito3002]

Poor Dreiko getting taken to the back of the woodshed. Moral of the story is you can't central position everything

He did make a point and that is overlooked in most of the response I have seen to this. Woman did write this bill and passed this bill are also celebrating this bill. Now the rich white man dictating woman bodies is a strong narrative but there are plenty of woman who they are married also pushing this agenda and because the man told them. These woman want to impose their view of "being a woman" just as strong as male counterparts and they get the privilege to go unnoticed and pull their snake ways in the shadows. That saying behind every "great" man and all that.

Now I have straddled I used to be pro life but I and strongly pro choice I understand that many think the life starts at embryo but with so much funding cut in assisting these children when they are born and leaving to the wolves essentially I changed position and life is complicated so which ever plays out I would ride pro choice. I hope other states can buck this trend I know Ohio is more draconian than Alabama and Georgia not far behind. Also I pray Roe V Wade is not overturned because of this nonsense though it will be a strong chance this is the endgame.

Of course Indoctrination is a strong tool for conformity, that is why they go to these extremes they do to indoctrinate people as children, it isn't like I was the first child they tied to a chair and made to read the bible aloud. The sheer amount of peer pressure from religious groups in my school made it difficult for many kids not to feel excluded if they did not participate. That is the whole point, it isn't like they only indoctrinated males into this as children, there were plenty of females who were indoctrinated as well, HOWEVER, only white men voted on this legislation to have it passed, the only three women who voted on it voted against it although a female governor did not veto it and she should be ashamed.

Yes, women can and do police other women's bodies, but this is a policing of women's bodies none the less. When you research their beliefs however, chances are they were indoctrinated into them as children and were never given time to form an opinion of their own. Where I come from, indoctrination is condemned, and children are not allowed to be inducted into religious societies, as that is reserved only for adults and the decision has to be entirely their own. Instead of indoctrination, people are encouraged to learn about the world and all the religions before making any sort of decision or commitment to a set of beliefs. It is seen as unethical to indoctrinate anyone and not give them an educated choice.

I know this policing woman's bodies no matter where it comes from. I know it comes from lesson they learned from childhood this is true for the men and woman. I can understand it but I am holding all parties accountable for this cause it is starting to affect and be enforced on other people. I am aware the only white men voted on it and plenty of white woman put them in that position.

I still hope something comes up that can balance out this news.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Poor Dreiko getting taken to the back of the woodshed. Moral of the story is you can't central position everything

He did make a point and that is overlooked in most of the response I have seen to this. Woman did write this bill and passed this bill are also celebrating this bill. Now the rich white man dictating woman bodies is a strong narrative but there are plenty of woman who they are married also pushing this agenda and because the man told them. These woman want to impose their view of "being a woman" just as strong as male counterparts and they get the privilege to go unnoticed and pull their snake ways in the shadows. That saying behind every "great" man and all that.

Now I have straddled I used to be pro life but I and strongly pro choice I understand that many think the life starts at embryo but with so much funding cut in assisting these children when they are born and leaving to the wolves essentially I changed position and life is complicated so which ever plays out I would ride pro choice. I hope other states can buck this trend I know Ohio is more draconian than Alabama and Georgia not far behind. Also I pray Roe V Wade is not overturned because of this nonsense though it will be a strong chance this is the endgame.

Hell, I'm not even centrist, I'm just actually explaining the other side in terms that someone from it would use in order to have a real discussion and not everyone stating the obvious about these laws being proposed that doesn't even really need to be stated cause everyone's already thinking it.


Thankfully, I'm not particularly affected by disagreement so I don't mind, though it'd be useful if people didn't reach for the ad-hominems as quickly as they do. If I'm moderate with my pro-socialism positions and tolerance of literally everything ever just because I'm not as passionate on cultural issues then that's saying that only cultural issues matter, which is absurd.