[Politics] Calls Have Been Made To Reopen Cases By "Central Park 5" Prosecutor

Cicada 5

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In the wake of the Netflix miniseries, "When They See Us" by Ava DuVernay about the Central Park 5, there have been growing calls made to reopen the cases of the CP5 case's original prosecutor, Linda Fairstein. There have also been calls to boycott her books.

https://www.thefader.com/2019/06/03/netflix-when-they-see-us-linda-fairstein-cases-book-boycott

The power of fiction at times. Will see how this goes.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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With this and the Rkelly thing, it's a little weird to see Netflix documentaries as a potentially more effect method of appeal for people on the receiving end or 'blind spot' of a flawed justice system. Not sure how to feel about that. Suppose the exposure in of itself is the driving force, which also brings mixed feelings. I don't got Netflix, so can't watch them legally, but reading has sufficed. Oh, oops, that isn't a documentary, but dramatisation, I did assume otherwise. Well, it's almost one.
 

gorfias

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Amazing how this fraud was allowed to build http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-06-12.html

Dunno how we hold the fraudsters to account.
 

Avnger

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Gorfias said:
Amazing how this fraud was allowed to build http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-06-12.html

Dunno how we hold the fraudsters to account.
I hope by fraudsters you're talking about people like Fairstein, the involved police officers, and fear/outrage-peddling talking heads (eg: Coulter, Trump, etc)
 

gorfias

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Avnger said:
Gorfias said:
Amazing how this fraud was allowed to build http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-06-12.html

Dunno how we hold the fraudsters to account.
I hope by fraudsters you're talking about people like Fairstein, the involved police officers, and talking heads (eg: Coulter, Trump, etc)
Do you think anything Coulter has written is incorrect? That the only "new" evidence in the case is the untrustworthy testimony of a rapist? The rest of the evidence, like the confessions of the "5" still fits?
 

Baffle

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Gorfias said:
Do you think anything Coulter has written is incorrect? That the only "new" evidence in the case is the untrustworthy testimony of a rapist? The rest of the evidence, like the confessions of the "5" still fits?
You know the Guildford Four (in their twenties, not children) confessed, right? I think we know what happened later.

And seriously, stop reading that Coulter shit. She's one step away from running around in a white sheet with a burning torch.
 

Silvanus

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Gorfias said:
Do you think anything Coulter has written is incorrect? That the only "new" evidence in the case is the untrustworthy testimony of a rapist? The rest of the evidence, like the confessions of the "5" still fits?
This is ludicrous. Reyes not only confessed, but provided an account matching other evidence. He was a DNA match for the only semen found. And he was demonstrably in the same area of the same park shortly before.

Yes, what Coulter wrote is incorrect. She is a detestable liar.
 

Avnger

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Gorfias said:
Avnger said:
Gorfias said:
Amazing how this fraud was allowed to build http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-06-12.html

Dunno how we hold the fraudsters to account.
I hope by fraudsters you're talking about people like Fairstein, the involved police officers, and talking heads (eg: Coulter, Trump, etc)
Do you think anything Coulter has written is incorrect? That the only "new" evidence in the case is the untrustworthy testimony of a rapist? The rest of the evidence, like the confessions of the "5" still fits?
How about nearly everything? Your (and Coulter's) need to blame this on some African-American teenagers despite so clearly being in the wrong is rather telling. I'm not going to bother bringing in sourced facts here because you've shown your disdain for such things by linking and believing Coulter in the first place.
 

tstorm823

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I'm not going to say or imply that the rape conviction was correct or just, but attacking the record of the prosecutor is, so far as I can tell, completely asinine. Like, the prosecutor didn't arrest or investigate anyone, the police do those things, and the prosecutor works with what they are given. I submit the following evidence:

"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate but equally important groups: The police, who investigate crime, and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. DUN DUN"

This case was overturned nearly 2 decades ago. Nobody questioned the prosecutor's record until now, and they want to now based on a Netflix series that cast her as the villain. And they almost certainly did that because they wanted a consistent villain from start to finish for the sake of compelling storytelling, its more interesting to have one super-racist at the heart of the affair than to have a nebulous system reach injustice. But I don't think that actually happened that way, there's very nearly 0% chance she had anything to say in who got arrested. They are not going to reopen all her cases because of Netflix.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Gorfias said:
Amazing how this fraud was allowed to build http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-06-12.html

Dunno how we hold the fraudsters to account.
Directly linking to propaganda sites should be an instant ban, tbh.
 

gorfias

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Baffle2 said:
Gorfias said:
Do you think anything Coulter has written is incorrect? That the only "new" evidence in the case is the untrustworthy testimony of a rapist? The rest of the evidence, like the confessions of the "5" still fits?
You know the Guildford Four (in their twenties, not children) confessed, right? I think we know what happened later.

And seriously, stop reading that Coulter shit. She's one step away from running around in a white sheet with a burning torch.
I don't know of the Guilford Four... reviewing, thank you for the reference.

PsychedelicDiamond said:
Gorfias said:
Amazing how this fraud was allowed to build http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-06-12.html

Dunno how we hold the fraudsters to account.
Directly linking to propaganda sites should be an instant ban, tbh.
Edit Easier to ban people than have to explain yourself

Edit: upon further review, not finding anything other than the self serving statement of an unreliable rapist to change why the central park rapists were convicted. Reviewing further.
 
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tstorm823 said:
I'm not going to say or imply that the rape conviction was correct or just, but attacking the record of the prosecutor is, so far as I can tell, completely asinine. Like, the prosecutor didn't arrest or investigate anyone, the police do those things, and the prosecutor works with what they are given. I submit the following evidence:

"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate but equally important groups: The police, who investigate crime, and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. DUN DUN"

This case was overturned nearly 2 decades ago. Nobody questioned the prosecutor's record until now, and they want to now based on a Netflix series that cast her as the villain. And they almost certainly did that because they wanted a consistent villain from start to finish for the sake of compelling storytelling, its more interesting to have one super-racist at the heart of the affair than to have a nebulous system reach injustice. But I don't think that actually happened that way, there's very nearly 0% chance she had anything to say in who got arrested. They are not going to reopen all her cases because of Netflix.
Before saying this, you need ask yourself if she ignored Evidence for Confessions that even during the trial, the Five said was coerced by the Police.

The amount of False Confessions that were proven false due to DNA grows every year [http://jaapl.org/content/37/3/332]. If there was DNA evidence and the prosecutor ignored it in favor of the Confessions... which every one of the Five recanted when they went to trial... then some doubt on how the woman proceeded with her case load can be warranted. Her entire case load, I can't say that. But at least, her record must have an asterisk next to her name.

Gorfias said:
Do you think anything Coulter has written is incorrect? That the only "new" evidence in the case is the untrustworthy testimony of a rapist? The rest of the evidence, like the confessions of the "5" still fits?
Hey, Gorfias, haven't seen you in a while. I hope you're well.

The Confessions were coerced. If you grow up afraid of the cops your whole life, knowing that you won't get a fair shake, and you have been grilled for hours... the second one of them say "Hey, Raymond. We know you didn't do it. We know this guy is really the person who did it. But here's the thing. The evidence is really somewhat light. We need a witness there who said that Raymond did everything. Don't worry, we'll tell you exactly what to say and go to bat for you when it comes time".

Hey, if you're young and you're in a bad situation that you believe there's no way out of and someone came in, caring and honestly seeming like they know you're innocent? You feel like you hit pay dirt. If this guy actually did it and you would be putting someone away, why wouldn't you "help"? Especially when they 'just found out' it wasn't you, it was this other guy.

And furthermore, why should the confessions matter any more? They have the DNA of the person who actually did it. Reyes. Who they linked to 4 other rapes including the murder of his last victim. Why are we holding so closely to a confession when we have provable evidence and a long list of similar crimes linked to the actual rapist?
 

gorfias

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ObsidianJones said:
Hey, Gorfias, haven't seen you in a while. I hope you're well.

The Confessions were coerced. If you grow up afraid of the cops your whole life, knowing that you won't get a fair shake, and you have been grilled for hours... the second one of them say "Hey, Raymond. We know you didn't do it. We know this guy is really the person who did it. But here's the thing. The evidence is really somewhat light. We need a witness there who said that Raymond did everything. Don't worry, we'll tell you exactly what to say and go to bat for you when it comes time".

Hey, if you're young and you're in a bad situation that you believe there's no way out of and someone came in, caring and honestly seeming like they know you're innocent? You feel like you hit pay dirt. If this guy actually did it and you would be putting someone away, why wouldn't you "help"? Especially when they 'just found out' it wasn't you, it was this other guy.

And furthermore, why should the confessions matter any more? They have the DNA of the person who actually did it. Reyes. Who they linked to 4 other rapes including the murder of his last victim. Why are we holding so closely to a confession when we have provable evidence and a long list of similar crimes linked to the actual rapist?
Nice conversing with you as well.

Thank you for your considered response.

Even from your response, I'm not reading of anything new. Supposedly DNA had nothing to do with the conviction of the Central Park rapists. Even a relative, who thought she was being supportive, said they simply held the woman down. Which is still being part of a rape.

My point is, I'm only reading of a self serving rapist making new statements that do not disprove what initially put these guys away. I honestly think we've been suckered.
 

Baffle

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Gorfias said:
I don't know of the Guilford Four... reviewing, thank you for the reference.
They were wrongly convicted (because they confessed) of a pub bombing and got off scot-free after spending 15 years in jail. The film you're looking for is In the Name of the Father.
 

Agema

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Unless there's compelling evidence of prosecutorial misconduct, I don't see any reason to attack the prosecutor.

It is the prosecution's job to build a case. These teenagers had an apparent history of poor behaviour, and there was substantial circumstantial evidence that at minimum they had assaulted the victim, even if not having carried out the actual rape. Why not pursue?

There problem seems to me to be almost entirely about the way the police interrogated them, which seems to have breached proper procedure numerous times. And possibly to extend that, maybe the US legal system more widely that seems to drive people to falsely confess out of fear of greater punishment. You could potentially add problems with prejudice against the accused, by jurors and whipped up by hostile press and publicity. But where is the prosecutor's fault in all that?
 

CheetoDust_v1legacy

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Once again I come to the escapist to discover that apparently innocent until proven guilty is a privilege reserved purely for white guys accused of rape or hate crimes.
 

Cicada 5

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I should also point out that Fairstein helped Harvey Weinstein when he was accused of groping a model.

https://nypost.com/2017/10/15/linda-fairstein-vouched-for-weinsteins-lawyer-in-model-grope-case-report/

Something was got to give sooner or later.
 

Baffle

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Agema said:
There problem seems to me to be almost entirely about the way the police interrogated them, which seems to have breached proper procedure numerous times. And possibly to extend that, maybe the US legal system more widely that seems to drive people to falsely confess out of fear of greater punishment. You could potentially add problems with prejudice against the accused, by jurors and whipped up by hostile press and publicity. But where is the prosecutor's fault in all that?
The prosecutor's job isn't to put people in prison, it's to put guilty people in prison. To suggest that they wouldn't have been aware of the likelihood of coerced confessions from children seems naive.

I'm not sure who makes the decision to take a case to trial in the States the way the CPS does in the UK, but I thought it was the prosecutor -- if the evidence is lacking but the prosecutor bows to pressure to charge someone then that does call their judgement into question.
 
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Gorfias said:
Nice conversing with you as well.

Thank you for your considered response.

Even from your response, I'm not reading of anything new. Supposedly DNA had nothing to do with the conviction of the Central Park rapists. Even a relative, who thought she was being supportive, said they simply held the woman down. Which is still being part of a rape.

My point is, I'm only reading of a self serving rapist making new statements that do not disprove what initially put these guys away. I honestly think we've been suckered.
But that's the issue.

We don't have any word on whether Feinstein received the DNA and ignored it due to either police intervention or her Prosecutorial discretion.

While honest mistakes are sometimes made by prosecutors, prosecutorial misconduct can occur when a prosecutor focuses on a convenient suspect rather than the correct suspect, when a prosecutor suppresses, hides, or even fabricates certain evidence, or when a prosecutor improperly relies on an unreliable witness. All such incidences of prosecutorial misconduct can lead to the overturning of the conviction on appeal.
(Source [https://resources.lawinfo.com/criminal-defense/prosecutorial-misconduct-leading-to-wrongful.html])

When a conviction is obtained by the presentation of testimony known to the prosecuting authorities to have been perjured, due process is violated. The clause "cannot be deemed to be satisfied by mere notice and hearing if a State has contrived a conviction through the pretense of a trial which in truth is but used as a means of depriving a defendant of liberty through a deliberate deception of court and jury by the presentation of testimony known to be perjured. Such a contrivance . . . is as inconsistent with the rudimentary demands of justice as is the obtaining of a like result by intimidation."

...In Brady v. Maryland, the Court held "that the suppression by the prosecution of evidence favorable to an accused upon request violates due process where the evidence is material either to guilt or to punishment, irrespective of the good faith or bad faith of the prosecution." In that case, the prosecution had suppressed an extrajudicial confession of defendant?s accomplice that he had actually committed the murder. "The heart of the holding in Brady is the prosecution's suppression of evidence, in the face of a defense production request, where the evidence is favorable to the accused and is material either to guilt or to punishment. Important, then, are (a) suppression by the prosecution after a request by the defense, (b) the evidence?s favorable character for the defense, and (c) the materiality of the evidence."
Source [https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-14/section-1/prosecutorial-misconduct])

Also, Feinstein has been found messing up with the other evidence

Contrary to arguments made by a prosecutor at two trials in 1990, four strands of hair were never "matched" to any of the Harlem teenagers accused of beating and raping a jogger in Central Park, a former police scientist said this week.

The hairs, attributed to the victim and recovered from the clothing of two suspects, were the only pieces of physical evidence offered by prosecutors directly linking any of the teenagers to the crime. The hairs were also cited by the prosecution as a way for the jury to know that the videotaped confessions of the teenagers were reliable.

Nicholas Petraco, a detective who examined the hairs when he worked in the Police Department's criminalistics division and testified at the trials, said the technique for hair examination in 1990 was not powerful enough to tie anyone to the crime with certainty.

"'You can't say 'match,'" Mr. Petraco said. "It's impossible. You could never say it 'matched.' It's ridiculous."

At most, Mr. Petraco said, the hairs could be described as ''consistent with and similar to'' those of the defendants and the victim. The reason he used those words when he testified at the two trials, he said, was to make sure that the jurors and lawyers realized it was entirely possible for the hair to have come from other people.

In fact, earlier this year (2002 at the time of the article), advanced DNA tests not available in 1990 showed precisely that: the hairs did not come from the jogger, and do not link any of the five convicted men to the crime.

While Mr. Petraco avoided making an absolute link between the hairs and any person during his testimony, the lead prosecutor, Elizabeth Lederer, showed no such reticence. In her closing arguments, she used emphatic language to assert that hair found on a defendant, Kevin Richardson, had been "matched" and vouched for the reliability of the vigorously contested confessions.

"Perhaps the most telling of all," Ms. Lederer said, "is the hair that was found on Kevin Richardson's clothes."

She referred the jurors to the testimony of Mr. Petraco, the expert witness called by the prosecution. But in parts of her recitation, his cautious phrasing vanished.

"He found on Kevin Richardson's underpants a hair that matched the head hair of" the victim, Ms. Lederer told the jurors. "And there was a second hair on the T-shirt that matched" the victim's pubic hair. She continued: "There was yet a third hair on his jeans, on his blue jeans, that was consistent with and similar to" hair from the victim's head.
(Source [https://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/25/nyregion/hair-evidence-in-jogger-case-is-discredited.html])

So, then we have another quandary here.

We have 1.) The Police and the Prosecution tripped up all over the place, got their wires crossed, and made 'honest mistakes' that made it seem like these Five kids were guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

2.) The Police and the Prosecution did everything by the book. But saw how massively unpopular the verdict was. And at this singular instance, the police realized they needed a publicity win... So they manufactured evidence, released the 5, and pinned it on this rapist they already had. To their own detriment of face and trust.

or 3.) Ready to put this to bed, they found whatever teens they could, used mind games to convince gullible teens to confess to something they didn't do because they thought they could help put the real person away, withheld evidence and presented questionable evidence as fact, even when not substantiated with Police.

We're going down a dangerous path that feelings override actual evidence. Your feelings may be something, but to hold onto it, you have to look at evidence that has been tested by third parties and say it doesn't matter as much as your gut. You have to understand how dangerous that is. We can only be ruled by Law and Provable Fact. Not feelings.
 

tstorm823

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ObsidianJones said:
Before saying this, you need ask yourself if she ignored Evidence for Confessions that even during the trial, the Five said was coerced by the Police.

The amount of False Confessions that were proven false due to DNA grows every year [http://jaapl.org/content/37/3/332]. If there was DNA evidence and the prosecutor ignored it in favor of the Confessions... which every one of the Five recanted when they went to trial... then some doubt on how the woman proceeded with her case load can be warranted. Her entire case load, I can't say that. But at least, her record must have an asterisk next to her name.
And if there wasn't DNA evidence against them, then what? They didn't confess to the rape, they confessed to being present at the time of the rape. The DNA evidence never contradicted the confessions. If anything, the DNA results add to the potential credibility of the confessions, because someone else's semen is what you would expect to find when they confess to assaulting her but say someone else did the rape.

I'm not saying there isn't the possibility that those coerced confessions were deliberately constructed that way, perhaps the police knew they had the wrong people so they set them up as accomplices in case hard evidence like DNA could prove they weren't rapists. It could have been that well thought out and malicious. But that would have taken place before a prosecutor got involved, and to my knowledge, I don't think there is any evidence, fabricated or otherwise, that contradicts their confessions, which the prosecutor would have to ignore to more forward with the case.