[POLITICS] If Trump is Innocent, he should prove it

[Myria]

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

 

[Saelune]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Hillary did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'her emails' and Trump still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the White House and Fox News should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Republican leaders claiming they know for a fact Hillary was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the female sex, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a woman they just don't like.

 

[Saelune]

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

Its not like this investigation came out of nowhere. It came because Trump did a bunch of suspicious things involving Russia.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Hillary did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'her emails' and Trump still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the White House and Fox News should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Republican leaders claiming they know for a fact Hillary was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the female sex, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a woman they just don't like.

.
Once Hillary gets the same caliber of FBI investigation I'd agree. Otherwise I believe people like you, who refuse to accept this conclusion of the story, will continue to put a wedge in the american society.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.
.

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

Its not like this investigation came out of nowhere. It came because Trump did a bunch of suspicious things involving Russia.

.
DNC was outed as a corrupt establishment (after the email leak data-dump in wikileaks) and to cover it up they threw out the Russian interference story on the media.

 

[Saelune]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Hillary did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'her emails' and Trump still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the White House and Fox News should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Republican leaders claiming they know for a fact Hillary was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the female sex, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a woman they just don't like.

.
Once Hillary gets the same caliber of FBI investigation I'd agree. Otherwise I believe people like you, who refuse to accept this conclusion of the story, will continue to put a wedge in the american society.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.
.

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

Its not like this investigation came out of nowhere. It came because Trump did a bunch of suspicious things involving Russia.

.
DNC was outed as a corrupt establishment (after the email leak data-dump in wikileaks) and to cover it up they threw out the Russian interference story on the media.

Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

 

[TheIronRuler]

.
Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. If you can't handle what I'm saying, don't start arguing for your point.

It's not my side. I'm an observer, not an american. I observe disconnect from reality on the Democratic side.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Do you know something no one else does? Have you seen the report yet? Trump has yet to be exonerated, even by what Barr has said thus far. It appears you as well have taken some opinion as fact and ran with it as well.

The issue is not if Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia, it is that colluding with Russia is not technically illegal due to not being at war with Russia. We are currently existing in a time period where aggressive cyber attacks have not been classified as as acts of war even though Russia literally hacked US nuclear power plants, The US electrical grid, The Department of Defense, US hospitals, and numerous US officials. Donald Trump jr. Already admitted to colluding with Russia to get dirt that was obtained illegally on Hillary. Trump himself openly asked publicly for Russia to send him hacked emails near the time of the Trump Tower meeting. Trumps Lawyer already said Trump knew about this meeting in advance. Flynn already admitted he was working as a foreign agent for another government while being head of national security for the US, Manafort was already shown to be on Russia's payroll by the ledger found in the Ukraine. That is not a media companies "opinion" that was what was already established to be true. The issue is that in the US, this has not yet made illegal, so there is nothing to prosecute there. None of that has anything to do with him making himself orange.

Trump is not even out of the woods yet as there are still other numerous investigations ongoing. His businesses are still under investigation in New York, where he will not be able to oversee or interfere with the investigations there, as they are on the state level, not under his federal control. Trump still very well may be charged at some point once he is out of office as well due to his constant interference and attempts to control the federal investigations into his actions. He actively and repeatedly attacked Comey, Sessions, Rosenstein, Mueller and the FBI itself and had his lackeys doing everything they could to run interference for him.

These are the open, current ongoing investigations that Trump and his campaign are still facing:
http://time.com/5557644/donald-trump-other-investigations-mueller/

The results of those investigations could very well cause new investigations or charges to be brought. How on earth is it a "witch hunt" when we have even the President's own friend and attorney for years telling us he is con man. But Cohen was not alone in " being one of Trumps best people" who then leave him and tell everyone how screwed up he is. Why is it everyone around Trump who knows him winds up leaving him and tells everyone what a untrustworthy person he is? He now has a huge pile of people telling everyone he is a liar, a cheat, and a thief., including those close to him and people who did business with him. How many people does it take telling everyone this does it take for people to realize that is who Trump really is?

I have no idea why you seem to think otherwise. What has happened that makes you think otherwise?

 

[Saelune]

.
Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. If you can't handle what I'm saying, don't start arguing for your point.

It's not my side. I'm an observer, not an american. I observe disconnect from reality on the Democratic side.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I translated the words you were saying to be more honest. You just flat out cannot claim Hillary is guilty if you think Trump is proven innocent. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Trump supporters who still claim Hillary is guilty despite being formally cleared by the FBI. Trump is even less cleared since ya know, the actual report hasn't been released.

The FBI said Hillary is not guilty. Trump Supporter Willaim Barr said a report he wont release said Trump is not guilty. The FBI definitely was not on Hillary's side and still said she wasnt guilty.

You could just go 'I guess you're right, Hillary is innocent too', but you didnt. You double downed.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Do you know something no one else does? Have you seen the report yet? Trump has yet to be exonerated, even by what Barr has said thus far. It appears you as well have taken what some opinion as fact and ran with it as well.

The issue is not if Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia, it is that colluding with Russia is not technically illegal due to not being at war with Russia. We are currently existing in a time period where aggressive cyber attacks have not been classified as as acts of war even though Russia literally hacked US nuclear power plants, The US electrical grid, The Department of Defense, US hospitals, and numerous US officials. Donald Trump jr. Already admitted to colluding with Russia to get dirt that was obtained illegally on Hillary. Trump himself openly asked publicly for Russia to send him hacked emails near the time of the Trump Tower meeting. Trumps Lawyer already said Trump knew about this meeting in advance. Flynn already admitted he was working as a foreign agent for another government while being head of national security for the US, Manafort was already shown to be on Russia's payroll by the ledger found in the Ukraine. That is not a media companies "opinion" that was what was already established to be true. The issue is that in the US, this has not yet made illegal, so there is nothing to prosecute there. None of that has anything to do with him making himself orange.

Trump is not even out of the woods yet as there are still other numerous investigations ongoing. His businesses are still under investigation in New York, where he will not be able to oversee or interfere with the investigations there, as they are on the state level, not under his federal control. Trump still very well may be charged at some point once he is out of office as well due to his constant interference and attempts to control the federal investigations into his actions. He actively and repeatedly attacked Comey, Sessions, Rosenstein, Mueller and the FBI itself and had his lackeys doing everything they could to run interference for him.

These are the open, current ongoing investigations that Trump and his campaign are still facing:
http://time.com/5557644/donald-trump-other-investigations-mueller/

The results of those investigations could very well cause new investigations or charges to be brought. How on earth is it a "witch hunt" when we have even the President's own friend and attorney for years telling us he is con man. But Cohen was not alone in " being one of Trumps best people" who then leave him and tell everyone how screwed up he is. Why is it everyone around Trump who knows him winds up leaving him and tells everyone what a untrustworthy person he is? He now has a huge pile of people telling everyone he is a liar, a cheat, and a thief., including those close to him and people who did business with him. How many people does it take telling everyone this does it take for people to realize that is who Trump really is?

I have no idea why you seem to think otherwise. What has happened that makes you think otherwise?

.
This seems to me like a witch-hunt against the candidate certain people didn't want to be elected. If they are looking for dirt, they will find it, but I was amused to hear that after 2 years FBI special investigation still couldn't pin a crime on Trump even after the assumption he was guilty was pumped into the airwaves rigorously ever since he got elected.

Capone sat in prison for tax-fraud. I think they're trying to get Trump the same way when they're looking after his businesses.

I am biased, though. I see a similar thing happening in my own country. I probably connect the dots that aren't there, but to me seems to be there, because it looks similar to a different thing altogether. Remember, I'm not an American. I don't feed off the same media as you do.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Hillary did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'her emails' and Trump still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the White House and Fox News should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Republican leaders claiming they know for a fact Hillary was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the female sex, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a woman they just don't like.

.
Once Hillary gets the same caliber of FBI investigation I'd agree. Otherwise I believe people like you, who refuse to accept this conclusion of the story, will continue to put a wedge in the american society.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.
.

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

Its not like this investigation came out of nowhere. It came because Trump did a bunch of suspicious things involving Russia.

.
DNC was outed as a corrupt establishment (after the email leak data-dump in wikileaks) and to cover it up they threw out the Russian interference story on the media.

Why would Hillary have the same calibur of investigation when even the Republican's investigating her said there as nothing left to investigate. They actually investigated Hillary for much longer and there was nothing left to investigate. What exactly should they be investigating on Hillary to begin with? That she opened emails on her personal device that did not have a proper classified header but instead had it shown to be classified within the body of the email? They already went through that. What else is there?

Trump was ridiculed for his opinions because he pulls them out of his arse, he is not even basing them on actions that have taken place. He lies constantly and just makes stuff up. HE even admits to just making stuff up publicly and jokes about it.


Both the DNC and the GOP are corrupt, the issue of course is the GOP doesn't care if everyone knows they are corrupt and the DNC fires people over it. That is it. The two party system in the US is terribly screwed up, that does not suddenly make one side good and the other bad. It just makes the side willing to do anything about the corruption at all a little better than the one who doesn't.

 

[TheIronRuler]

.
Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. If you can't handle what I'm saying, don't start arguing for your point.

It's not my side. I'm an observer, not an american. I observe disconnect from reality on the Democratic side.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I translated the words you were saying to be more honest. You just flat out cannot claim Hillary is guilty if you think Trump is proven innocent. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Trump supporters who still claim Hillary is guilty despite being formally cleared by the FBI. Trump is even less cleared since ya know, the actual report hasn't been released.

The FBI said Hillary is not guilty. Trump Supporter Willaim Barr said a report he wont release said Trump is not guilty. The FBI definitely was not on Hillary's side and still said she wasnt guilty.

You could just go 'I guess you're right, Hillary is innocent too', but you didnt. You double downed.

.
You translated what I said into what you think I said. I didn't claim hillary was guilty. She didn't get the same kind of legal treatment as Trump, yet he is vilified and she isn't. Regardless of the matter, I may be more ignorant of it than you, but it was you who even brought her up to begin with in your very childish response to my post. You also ignored, maybe by error, this gem of a paragraph I'd like to paste here.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.

That paragraph is exactly the reason why I don't believe a lot of news outlets regarding this issue. It has come to herd mentality in the field and I'm tired of it. They did it with Iraq, they can do it with anything else.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Hillary did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'her emails' and Trump still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the White House and Fox News should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Republican leaders claiming they know for a fact Hillary was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the female sex, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a woman they just don't like.

.
Once Hillary gets the same caliber of FBI investigation I'd agree. Otherwise I believe people like you, who refuse to accept this conclusion of the story, will continue to put a wedge in the american society.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.
.

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

Its not like this investigation came out of nowhere. It came because Trump did a bunch of suspicious things involving Russia.

.
DNC was outed as a corrupt establishment (after the email leak data-dump in wikileaks) and to cover it up they threw out the Russian interference story on the media.

Why would Hillary have the same calibur of investigation when even the Republican's investigating her said there as nothing left to investigate. They actually investigated Hillary for much longer and there was nothing left to investigate. What exactly should they be investigating on Hillary to begin with? That she opened emails on her personal device that did not have a proper classified header but instead had it shown to be classified within the body of the email? They already went through that. What else is there?

Trump was ridiculed for his opinions because he pulls them out of his arse, he is not even basing them on actions that have taken place. He lies constantly and just makes stuff up. HE even admits to just making stuff up publicly and jokes about it.


Both the DNC and the GOP are corrupt, the issue of course is the GOP doesn't care if everyone knows they are corrupt and the DNC fires people over it. That is it. The two party system in the US is terribly screwed up, that does not suddenly make one side good and the other bad. It just makes the side willing to do anything about the corruption at all a little better than the one who doesn't.

.
GOP didn't cheat to get Trump elected in the primaries. DNC did cheat. You can't equate the two honestly.

I should probably drop the hillary talking point. I don't know enough to argue about her.

 

[Saelune]

.
Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. If you can't handle what I'm saying, don't start arguing for your point.

It's not my side. I'm an observer, not an american. I observe disconnect from reality on the Democratic side.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I translated the words you were saying to be more honest. You just flat out cannot claim Hillary is guilty if you think Trump is proven innocent. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Trump supporters who still claim Hillary is guilty despite being formally cleared by the FBI. Trump is even less cleared since ya know, the actual report hasn't been released.

The FBI said Hillary is not guilty. Trump Supporter Willaim Barr said a report he wont release said Trump is not guilty. The FBI definitely was not on Hillary's side and still said she wasnt guilty.

You could just go 'I guess you're right, Hillary is innocent too', but you didnt. You double downed.

.
You translated what I said into what you think I said. I didn't claim hillary was guilty. She didn't get the same kind of legal treatment as Trump, yet he is vilified and she isn't. Regardless of the matter, I may be more ignorant of it than you, but it was you who even brought her up to begin with in your very childish response to my post. You also ignored, maybe by error, this gem of a paragraph I'd like to paste here.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.

That paragraph is exactly the reason why I don't believe a lot of news outlets regarding this issue. It has come to herd mentality in the field and I'm tired of it. They did it with Iraq, they can do it with anything else.

She got the same treatment. She just wasn't guilty so it was over faster. Still took longer than needed. Also Trump's daughter and her husband did what Hillary did and did not get investigated for it, whats up with that?

Trump made excuses. The same kind you're making. If Trump is innocent, he should prove it. He hasn't. We don't know what the Mueller Report says. If it proves him not guilty, then they should just release it, but they haven't.

Trump and his supporters CONSTANTLY apply standards to others that they do not apply to themselves. That is the literal definition of hypocrisy, and I am sick and tired of it. Trump has no right to *****, because what he claims is being done to him is what he did all the time, to Hillary and to Obama. But unlike himself, they actually proved their innocence.


You refuse to believe the news outlets, but you take William Barr and Trump at their word? If you're going to claim to be skeptical of bias, then be skeptical of bias, that includes bias in favor of Trump.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Do you know something no one else does? Have you seen the report yet? Trump has yet to be exonerated, even by what Barr has said thus far. It appears you as well have taken what some opinion as fact and ran with it as well.

The issue is not if Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia, it is that colluding with Russia is not technically illegal due to not being at war with Russia. We are currently existing in a time period where aggressive cyber attacks have not been classified as as acts of war even though Russia literally hacked US nuclear power plants, The US electrical grid, The Department of Defense, US hospitals, and numerous US officials. Donald Trump jr. Already admitted to colluding with Russia to get dirt that was obtained illegally on Hillary. Trump himself openly asked publicly for Russia to send him hacked emails near the time of the Trump Tower meeting. Trumps Lawyer already said Trump knew about this meeting in advance. Flynn already admitted he was working as a foreign agent for another government while being head of national security for the US, Manafort was already shown to be on Russia's payroll by the ledger found in the Ukraine. That is not a media companies "opinion" that was what was already established to be true. The issue is that in the US, this has not yet made illegal, so there is nothing to prosecute there. None of that has anything to do with him making himself orange.

Trump is not even out of the woods yet as there are still other numerous investigations ongoing. His businesses are still under investigation in New York, where he will not be able to oversee or interfere with the investigations there, as they are on the state level, not under his federal control. Trump still very well may be charged at some point once he is out of office as well due to his constant interference and attempts to control the federal investigations into his actions. He actively and repeatedly attacked Comey, Sessions, Rosenstein, Mueller and the FBI itself and had his lackeys doing everything they could to run interference for him.

These are the open, current ongoing investigations that Trump and his campaign are still facing:
http://time.com/5557644/donald-trump-other-investigations-mueller/

The results of those investigations could very well cause new investigations or charges to be brought. How on earth is it a "witch hunt" when we have even the President's own friend and attorney for years telling us he is con man. But Cohen was not alone in " being one of Trumps best people" who then leave him and tell everyone how screwed up he is. Why is it everyone around Trump who knows him winds up leaving him and tells everyone what a untrustworthy person he is? He now has a huge pile of people telling everyone he is a liar, a cheat, and a thief., including those close to him and people who did business with him. How many people does it take telling everyone this does it take for people to realize that is who Trump really is?

I have no idea why you seem to think otherwise. What has happened that makes you think otherwise?

.
This seems to me like a witch-hunt against the candidate certain people didn't want to be elected. If they are looking for dirt, they will find it, but I was amused to hear that after 2 years FBI special investigation still couldn't pin a crime on Trump even after the assumption he was guilty was pumped into the airwaves rigorously ever since he got elected.

Capone sat in prison for tax-fraud. I think they're trying to get Trump the same way when they're looking after his businesses.

I am biased, though. I see a similar thing happening in my own country. I probably connect the dots that aren't there, but to me seems to be there, because it looks similar to a different thing altogether. Remember, I'm not an American. I don't feed off the same media as you do.

In your country though are they reporting this part here:

The issue is not if Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia, it is that colluding with Russia is not technically illegal due to not being at war with Russia. We are currently existing in a time period where aggressive cyber attacks have not been classified as as acts of war even though Russia literally hacked US nuclear power plants, The US electrical grid, The Department of Defense, US hospitals, and numerous US officials. Donald Trump jr. Already admitted to colluding with Russia to get dirt that was obtained illegally on Hillary. Trump himself openly asked publicly for Russia to send him hacked emails near the time of the Trump Tower meeting. Trumps Lawyer already said Trump knew about this meeting in advance. Flynn already admitted he was working as a foreign agent for another government while being head of national security for the US, Manafort was already shown to be on Russia's payroll by the ledger found in the Ukraine. That is not a media companies "opinion" that was what was already established to be true. The issue is that in the US, this has not yet made illegal, so there is nothing to prosecute there.

Because that is the big issue here that has to be addressed. Our reality is that if Trump were not president, he would not even be granted a security clearance. He would have been denied just as Kushner was. When we have a sitting US president that is considered a national security risk, we have a serious problem that should be addressed here. The US has a serious issue with corruption being legal here, that is what has to be addressed but cannot be as long as those that are corrupt are the ones who are responsible for passing laws against corruption.

As for other investigations, Trump has been in violation of the emoluments clause since day one, that has nothing to do with his money laundering, but the fact that he is exploiting the office of president for financial gain and selling presidential access to members of his golf club. That entire debacle is something you expect from dictatorships and kingdoms, not from democracies. Hell, his family is even profiting from His china and Saudi Arabia decisions. This should never be allowed to happen in the first place. It is just now we have a president willing to do anything and everything unscrupulous on full display exploiting it to the fullest, maybe that will actually motivate people to do something to actually address this corruption issue at some point. Either that or the US will go the opposite direction of becoming even far more corrupt to be able to "out do" Trump's corruption, which is going to b pretty hard to do considering the sheer level of it all.

Trump has actually "gotten away with" numerous crimes that other people would have been jailed for. He has lied under oath, he committed fraud on numerous occasions not only to investors, but to the general public with his fake scam school, he stole from businesses he had contracts with and from charity. I am not sure how anyone coming in will be able to top that.

 

[TheIronRuler]

.
Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. If you can't handle what I'm saying, don't start arguing for your point.

It's not my side. I'm an observer, not an american. I observe disconnect from reality on the Democratic side.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I translated the words you were saying to be more honest. You just flat out cannot claim Hillary is guilty if you think Trump is proven innocent. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Trump supporters who still claim Hillary is guilty despite being formally cleared by the FBI. Trump is even less cleared since ya know, the actual report hasn't been released.

The FBI said Hillary is not guilty. Trump Supporter Willaim Barr said a report he wont release said Trump is not guilty. The FBI definitely was not on Hillary's side and still said she wasnt guilty.

You could just go 'I guess you're right, Hillary is innocent too', but you didnt. You double downed.

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You translated what I said into what you think I said. I didn't claim hillary was guilty. She didn't get the same kind of legal treatment as Trump, yet he is vilified and she isn't. Regardless of the matter, I may be more ignorant of it than you, but it was you who even brought her up to begin with in your very childish response to my post. You also ignored, maybe by error, this gem of a paragraph I'd like to paste here.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.

That paragraph is exactly the reason why I don't believe a lot of news outlets regarding this issue. It has come to herd mentality in the field and I'm tired of it. They did it with Iraq, they can do it with anything else.

She got the same treatment. She just wasn't guilty so it was over faster. Still took longer than needed. Also Trump's daughter and her husband did what Hillary did and did not get investigated for it, whats up with that?

Trump made excuses. The same kind you're making. If Trump is innocent, he should prove it. He hasn't. We don't know what the Mueller Report says. If it proves him not guilty, then they should just release it, but they haven't.

Trump and his supporters CONSTANTLY apply standards to others that they do not apply to themselves. That is the literal definition of hypocrisy, and I am sick and tired of it. Trump has no right to *****, because what he claims is being done to him is what he did all the time, to Hillary and to Obama. But unlike himself, they actually proved their innocence.


You refuse to believe the news outlets, but you take William Barr and Trump at their word? If you're going to claim to be skeptical of bias, then be skeptical of bias, that includes bias in favor of Trump.

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I will wait for its release, and your subsequent rejection, of the investigation report.

I take what I hear with a gain of salt, as they say. I see the bias, talking points and pure lunacy and I can't take it seriously.

Again, when trump said that if he'd lose the elections were tampered with, he was attacked almost universally. However when he won, the losing side immediately said the same thing he had accused Trump of saying - that it was the tampering of the elections, not the people of the US, that had caused Trump to win the elections. It's a fucking joke. I can't get over this, and any subsequent arguments truly pale in comparison to this, in my opinion.

DNC was exposed with its crimes, causing many Democrats to not vote for the party. The leak was posted on wikileaks, anonymously as it is per custom there, and yet it doesn't stop the same Democrats who spat over American democracy to turn around and blame their lose in the general elections for Trump's collusion with the Russians. The sheer BALLS on them to do this with a straight face, Ahhhhhh. I'd credit them with that.

 

[TheIronRuler]

.

In your country though are they reporting this part here:

The issue is not if Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia, it is that colluding with Russia is not technically illegal due to not being at war with Russia. We are currently existing in a time period where aggressive cyber attacks have not been classified as as acts of war even though Russia literally hacked US nuclear power plants, The US electrical grid, The Department of Defense, US hospitals, and numerous US officials. Donald Trump jr. Already admitted to colluding with Russia to get dirt that was obtained illegally on Hillary. Trump himself openly asked publicly for Russia to send him hacked emails near the time of the Trump Tower meeting. Trumps Lawyer already said Trump knew about this meeting in advance. Flynn already admitted he was working as a foreign agent for another government while being head of national security for the US, Manafort was already shown to be on Russia's payroll by the ledger found in the Ukraine. That is not a media companies "opinion" that was what was already established to be true. The issue is that in the US, this has not yet made illegal, so there is nothing to prosecute there.

Because that is the big issue here that has to be addressed. Our reality is that if Trump were not president, he would not even be granted a security clearance. He would have been denied just as Kushner was. When we have a sitting US president that is considered a national security risk, we have a serious problem that should be addressed here. The US has a serious issue with corruption being legal here, that is what has to be addressed but cannot be as long as those that are corrupt are the ones who are responsible for passing laws against corruption.

As for other investigations, Trump has been in violation of the emoluments clause since day one, that has nothing to do with his money laundering, but the fact that he is exploiting the office of president for financial gain and selling presidential access to members of his golf club. That entire debacle is something you expect from dictatorships and kingdoms, not from democracies. Hell, his family is even profiting from His china and Saudi Arabia decisions. This should never be allowed to happen in the first place. It is just now we have a president willing to do anything and everything unscrupulous on full display exploiting it to the fullest, maybe that will actually motivate people to do something to actually address this corruption issue at some point. Either that or the US will go the opposite direction of becoming even far more corrupt to be able to "out do" Trump's corruption, which is going to b pretty hard to do considering the sheer level of it all.

Trump has actually "gotten away with" numerous crimes that other people would have been jailed for. He has lied under oath, he committed fraud on numerous occasions not only to investors, but to the general public with his fake scam school, he stole from businesses he had contracts with and from charity. I am not sure how anyone coming in will be able to top that.

.
Not much of that, no. The bit about Trump real-estate deals with the Saudis And Chinese investors, I have heard about. Much of what you said I can totally envision Trump doing, yet... he's still in office. In short - If there was something concrete to impeach him with, it would have happened. Yet it doesn't happen.

 

[Saelune]

.
Oh ok, 'its only wrong when it happens to my side' is your argument. Got it.

.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. If you can't handle what I'm saying, don't start arguing for your point.

It's not my side. I'm an observer, not an american. I observe disconnect from reality on the Democratic side.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I translated the words you were saying to be more honest. You just flat out cannot claim Hillary is guilty if you think Trump is proven innocent. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Trump supporters who still claim Hillary is guilty despite being formally cleared by the FBI. Trump is even less cleared since ya know, the actual report hasn't been released.

The FBI said Hillary is not guilty. Trump Supporter Willaim Barr said a report he wont release said Trump is not guilty. The FBI definitely was not on Hillary's side and still said she wasnt guilty.

You could just go 'I guess you're right, Hillary is innocent too', but you didnt. You double downed.

.
You translated what I said into what you think I said. I didn't claim hillary was guilty. She didn't get the same kind of legal treatment as Trump, yet he is vilified and she isn't. Regardless of the matter, I may be more ignorant of it than you, but it was you who even brought her up to begin with in your very childish response to my post. You also ignored, maybe by error, this gem of a paragraph I'd like to paste here.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.

That paragraph is exactly the reason why I don't believe a lot of news outlets regarding this issue. It has come to herd mentality in the field and I'm tired of it. They did it with Iraq, they can do it with anything else.

She got the same treatment. She just wasn't guilty so it was over faster. Still took longer than needed. Also Trump's daughter and her husband did what Hillary did and did not get investigated for it, whats up with that?

Trump made excuses. The same kind you're making. If Trump is innocent, he should prove it. He hasn't. We don't know what the Mueller Report says. If it proves him not guilty, then they should just release it, but they haven't.

Trump and his supporters CONSTANTLY apply standards to others that they do not apply to themselves. That is the literal definition of hypocrisy, and I am sick and tired of it. Trump has no right to *****, because what he claims is being done to him is what he did all the time, to Hillary and to Obama. But unlike himself, they actually proved their innocence.


You refuse to believe the news outlets, but you take William Barr and Trump at their word? If you're going to claim to be skeptical of bias, then be skeptical of bias, that includes bias in favor of Trump.

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I will wait for its release, and your subsequent rejection, of the investigation report.

I take what I hear with a gain of salt, as they say. I see the bias, talking points and pure lunacy and I can't take it seriously.

Again, when trump said that if he'd lose the elections were tampered with, he was attacked almost universally. However when he won, the losing side immediately said the same thing he had accused Trump of saying - that it was the tampering of the elections, not the people of the US, that had caused Trump to win the elections. It's a fucking joke. I can't get over this, and any subsequent arguments truly pale in comparison to this, in my opinion.

DNC was exposed with its crimes, causing many Democrats to not vote for the party. The leak was posted on wikileaks, anonymously as it is per custom there, and yet it doesn't stop the same Democrats who spat over American democracy to turn around and blame their lose in the general elections for Trump's collusion with the Russians. The sheer BALLS on them to do this with a straight face, Ahhhhhh. I'd credit them with that.

I worried the report would come out and actually say he was not guilty. Instead ardent Trump supporters Barr and McConnel are doing everything they can to hide the report. I knew whatever it said, it wouldn't stop Trump supporters from supporting him, but this response only assures me that whatever it says, it is bad for Trump.

I have found that thinking the better of Trump is never the truth. Everytime it seemed like Trump did something right or good, it always turned out to be not true, or even worse than we thought. Trump is never actually surprising. We joked Trump would do what he does with his casinos, flop and fail and blame others and steal money. He did literally that with the government. Trump has proven to be exactly what I thought he was, and I doubt the report will change that, if we ever actually see it.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Trump did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'colluding with the Russians' and people still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the news outlets in London' L.A. and New York should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Democratic leaders claiming they know for a fact the president was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the color orange, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a President they just don't like.

Hillary did nothing wrong and was exonerated for 'her emails' and Trump still can't stomach it. Those hacks at the White House and Fox News should all get canned for repeating this piece of gossip as if it was the truth. Republican leaders claiming they know for a fact Hillary was guilty - and were showed to be utter buffoons - should also get sacked.

Own up to your demagoguery. Apologize. Resign. Otherwise regular people, who had not been infected by this irrational hatred of the female sex, would see this for what it truly is - a witch hunt against a woman they just don't like.

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Once Hillary gets the same caliber of FBI investigation I'd agree. Otherwise I believe people like you, who refuse to accept this conclusion of the story, will continue to put a wedge in the american society.

When Trump said that if he'd lose then it was proof the elections were tampered with, and would not accept it, he was vilified for his opinions. Nowadays the same people who vilified him for that same comment, say that the elections were tampered with, because they lost. It's a fucking joke.
.

I would ask if people are aware that you can't prove a negative, but I strongly suspect that's exactly the point.

You're not proving a negative, though. Proving a negative essentially applies to proving the non-existence of something. But a state of innocence is something that exists, therefore it can be proven: by supplying a load of evidence that firmly demonstrates guilt cannot be the case.

No, you're asking for someone to prove that something doesn't exist -- guilt.

In the absence of proof of guilt, innocence is presumed.

Or, at least, should be presumed.

Its not like this investigation came out of nowhere. It came because Trump did a bunch of suspicious things involving Russia.

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DNC was outed as a corrupt establishment (after the email leak data-dump in wikileaks) and to cover it up they threw out the Russian interference story on the media.

Why would Hillary have the same calibur of investigation when even the Republican's investigating her said there as nothing left to investigate. They actually investigated Hillary for much longer and there was nothing left to investigate. What exactly should they be investigating on Hillary to begin with? That she opened emails on her personal device that did not have a proper classified header but instead had it shown to be classified within the body of the email? They already went through that. What else is there?

Trump was ridiculed for his opinions because he pulls them out of his arse, he is not even basing them on actions that have taken place. He lies constantly and just makes stuff up. HE even admits to just making stuff up publicly and jokes about it.


Both the DNC and the GOP are corrupt, the issue of course is the GOP doesn't care if everyone knows they are corrupt and the DNC fires people over it. That is it. The two party system in the US is terribly screwed up, that does not suddenly make one side good and the other bad. It just makes the side willing to do anything about the corruption at all a little better than the one who doesn't.

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GOP didn't cheat to get Trump elected in the primaries. DNC did cheat. You can't equate the two honestly.

I should probably drop the hillary talking point. I don't know enough to argue about her.

You actually can.Trump's campaign lied repeatedly to get him elected. He lied about his businesses, his finances, his opponents. The man cannot seem to stop lying about anything and everything tbh.

The GOP was responsible for voter suppression, widespread disinformation campaign, and ridiculously unscrupulous practices, mind you Roger Stone is also part of the GOP. The difference is that when the DNC is exposed for these things, people get fired. The GOP instead promotes the people responsible. It is seriously that bad.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/30/donald-trump-republicans-corruption-problem-drain-swamp-column/1112746002/
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/145387/underplayed-story-2016-election-voter-suppression
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mbyg3x/the-most-damaging-election-disinformation-campaign-came-from-donald-trump-not-russia
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2016/06/24/trumps-company-tricked-investors-heres-how/86058802/

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/how-republicans-rig-the-game-111011/

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

.

In your country though are they reporting this part here:

The issue is not if Trump and his campaign colluded with Russia, it is that colluding with Russia is not technically illegal due to not being at war with Russia. We are currently existing in a time period where aggressive cyber attacks have not been classified as as acts of war even though Russia literally hacked US nuclear power plants, The US electrical grid, The Department of Defense, US hospitals, and numerous US officials. Donald Trump jr. Already admitted to colluding with Russia to get dirt that was obtained illegally on Hillary. Trump himself openly asked publicly for Russia to send him hacked emails near the time of the Trump Tower meeting. Trumps Lawyer already said Trump knew about this meeting in advance. Flynn already admitted he was working as a foreign agent for another government while being head of national security for the US, Manafort was already shown to be on Russia's payroll by the ledger found in the Ukraine. That is not a media companies "opinion" that was what was already established to be true. The issue is that in the US, this has not yet made illegal, so there is nothing to prosecute there.

Because that is the big issue here that has to be addressed. Our reality is that if Trump were not president, he would not even be granted a security clearance. He would have been denied just as Kushner was. When we have a sitting US president that is considered a national security risk, we have a serious problem that should be addressed here. The US has a serious issue with corruption being legal here, that is what has to be addressed but cannot be as long as those that are corrupt are the ones who are responsible for passing laws against corruption.

As for other investigations, Trump has been in violation of the emoluments clause since day one, that has nothing to do with his money laundering, but the fact that he is exploiting the office of president for financial gain and selling presidential access to members of his golf club. That entire debacle is something you expect from dictatorships and kingdoms, not from democracies. Hell, his family is even profiting from His china and Saudi Arabia decisions. This should never be allowed to happen in the first place. It is just now we have a president willing to do anything and everything unscrupulous on full display exploiting it to the fullest, maybe that will actually motivate people to do something to actually address this corruption issue at some point. Either that or the US will go the opposite direction of becoming even far more corrupt to be able to "out do" Trump's corruption, which is going to b pretty hard to do considering the sheer level of it all.

Trump has actually "gotten away with" numerous crimes that other people would have been jailed for. He has lied under oath, he committed fraud on numerous occasions not only to investors, but to the general public with his fake scam school, he stole from businesses he had contracts with and from charity. I am not sure how anyone coming in will be able to top that.

.
Not much of that, no. The bit about Trump real-estate deals with the Saudis And Chinese investors, I have heard about. Much of what you said I can totally envision Trump doing, yet... he's still in office. In short - If there was something concrete to impeach him with, it would have happened. Yet it doesn't happen.

They impeached Bill Clinton over lying about having sex with Monica Lewinsky. Trump has lied repeatedly about Stormy Daniels. That alone would be "grounds" according to historical context of impeachment. The difference of course is Trump's Republican congress didn't care about ANYTHING he does. There is tons of data for "grounds for impeachment" however, there is no rule that says they must act. I for one, don't want him impeached. Pence is worse than Trump and many see Pence as Trump's "insurance policy" against impeachment since no one wants Pence in charge of anything.. ever.

Pelosi doesn't want Trump impeached because she is viewing this strategically, not because he hasn't done anything to be impeached, it is she knows it is better for him not to be impeached for the upcoming elections and due to the amount of damage Pence would inflict. There is a difference between not having grounds and not wanting to do so. The current situation is it is better not to impeach than to impeach and they should only consider it if Trump tries to nuke someone or does something that will not be able to be undone later. It is not a matter of having nothing concrete, but instead it is better not to do so due to the circumstances.