[Politics] Poland Government is SUPER anti-LGBT

[Satinavian]

I'd also point out Buddhism started before Christ. It's more lovey dovey than Christianity

Yeah but if you're poor don't worry, when you reincarnate you'll be rich because of your suffering... please don't revolt, it'll be bad for your karma, know your place.

I don't know how that's worse than 'be good and you'll receive riches in heaven' from Christianity and Islam.

Both far better than

"poor people are poor because they get punished for their bad character and rich people are rich because they get rewarded in this life already and certainly must have earned it somehow"

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

Welp, one boogeyman ran out of steam, time to target another I guess? It's almost like that's the only way they can survive or something.... wait... shit.

Seriously though, this shite is vile. I expected better from a country that experienced what can come of this first hand.

Did you really? I mean, look at Israel.

Didn't want to bring it, but yeah... There are parallels. Victimization Complex is a *****, even when it's justifiable.

I'd also point out Buddhism started before Christ. It's more lovey dovey than Christianity

Yeah but if you're poor don't worry, when you reincarnate you'll be rich because of your suffering... please don't revolt, it'll be bad for your karma, know your place.

Also, if you want a side of Buddhism that isn't "lovey dovey" at all, look no further than Sri Lanka or Myanmar. And ask local muslim populace about it.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

This to me reeks of religion. In fact, the odd thing is how you can have churches which aren't similarly anti gay if they're Catholics. This is why I don't malign all those muslim countries, at least they're not hypocticial with their bronze age ideas and don't try to pretend they're living with modern sensibilities like some western churches try to. If you grow up hushing your voice every time you pass a church cause god is listening, that lends itself to a life of magical thinking.

I'm in the odd place where I'm a fundamentalist agnostic, I know all the lore and rules by heart and despite not actually believing it to be more than a fairy tale I can easily detect when someone who purports to follow it is actually not following it correctly and that's extremely grating lol. They're people who just want to be caped with the mantle of the "good person" or who did something bad and want to still be socially accepted so they want a pathway to forgiveness which comes from being religious but they don't actually believe in anything and don't even know half of what goes in what they purport to believe. They're the ultimate hypocrites.


A move to secularism is how you fix this. As long as people are religious they will inherently have a conservative tendency within them that will never leave since god's rules are above man's rules and if your puny little brain thinks something is unfair or wrong that's easily explained away by our imperfect faculties being unable to comprehend god's plan.

 

[Hawki]

So, is this about Poland and LGBT rights, or religion?

Or, is it both? I mean, shock of all shocks, religion makes otherwise rational people behave irrationally.

So why hate Religion for that reason? Hate the people who are twisting it.

Not naming names here, but when one's religion gives you instructions on how to treat certain people certain ways, and those ways aren't pleasant, one can ask how they're "twisting" it as opposed to following a fundamentalist interpretation.

If the 'fundamentals' of one's religion leads you to acting like monsters, then it strikes me as there being some pretty fucked up things with said religion.

I don't know how that's worse than 'be good and you'll receive riches in heaven' from Christianity and Islam.

Both far better than

"poor people are poor because they get punished for their bad character and rich people are rich because they get rewarded in this life already and certainly must have earned it somehow"[/quote]

Really?

The predication of Christianity (and I assume Islam and Judaism to some extent) is "believe in God/Jesus, or otherwise, you're going to Hell." Doesn't matter if you're a good samaritan if you don't follow that faith, you're screwed. I guess everyone who lived and died before the missionaries reached them just had the misfortune of growing up in the wrong part of the world.

I'd take the system of karma over that frankly. Or "good thoughts, good deeds" from Zoroastrianism.

This to me reeks of religion. In fact, the odd thing is how you can have churches which aren't similarly anti gay if they're Catholics. This is why I don't malign all those muslim countries, at leas they're not hypocticial with their bronze age ideas and don't try to pretend they're living with modern sensibilities like some western churches try to.

Not gay, so maybe I can't comment, but even if Christian/Catholic churches are being hypocritical, I'd still call that preferable to being able to act on one's prejudice with impunity.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

This to me reeks of religion. In fact, the odd thing is how you can have churches which aren't similarly anti gay if they're Catholics. This is why I don't malign all those muslim countries, at leas they're not hypocticial with their bronze age ideas and don't try to pretend they're living with modern sensibilities like some western churches try to.

Not gay, so maybe I can't comment, but even if Christian/Catholic churches are being hypocritical, I'd still call that preferable to being able to act on one's prejudice with impunity.

Of course it's preferable, my point is it's just not part of the faith so at that point you're making stuff up and coating it with the gravitas of religion because of other shared components. Religion isn't a pick and choose thing. Either you absorb all of it or you're not part of it. I wish these people would realize they're not part of it and help facilitate the secularization of society I mention.

 

[Abomination]

I'd also point out Buddhism started before Christ. It's more lovey dovey than Christianity

Yeah but if you're poor don't worry, when you reincarnate you'll be rich because of your suffering... please don't revolt, it'll be bad for your karma, know your place.

I don't know how that's worse than 'be good and you'll receive riches in heaven' from Christianity and Islam.

It's not better or worse, the outcome is the same.

Lie to the masses so that they obey their "betters" with threats/promise of rewards in the afterlife.

Your life sucks because in your past life you were a bad person. Be a better person and you will have a better life next life. In order to be a better person, don't rock the boat, do as you are told.

Same collar, different colour.

 

[Saelune]

People use religion as an excuse. I mean, I am sure without it, there would still be anti-LGBT people who just say 'its gross and weird', but the number 1 'argument' against LGBT people is that it is 'sinful' or whatever that religion's version of sin is. Though it is most pronounced in Judeo-based religions, ie Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

People use religion as an excuse. I mean, I am sure without it, there would still be anti-LGBT people who just say 'its gross and weird', but the number 1 'argument' against LGBT people is that it is 'sinful' or whatever that religion's version of sin is. Though it is most pronounced in Judeo-based religions, ie Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.


Not sure about whether you'd have some form of anti-gay sentiment but it'd definitively not be as intense. Like in Japan for example, where they treat it as more like a fetish than a "sin".

 

[Thaluikhain]

Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.

The city-states of Ancient Greece were fighting amongst themselves constantly, and yet at least a number of them accepted homosexuality. Promoting it, in some cases, such as the Sacred Band of Thebes which was made up exclusively of gay lovers, the idea being they'd fight harder to protect each other.

 

[Saelune]

People use religion as an excuse. I mean, I am sure without it, there would still be anti-LGBT people who just say 'its gross and weird', but the number 1 'argument' against LGBT people is that it is 'sinful' or whatever that religion's version of sin is. Though it is most pronounced in Judeo-based religions, ie Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.


Not sure about whether you'd have some form of anti-gay sentiment but it'd definitively not be as intense. Like in Japan for example, where they treat it as more like a fetish than a "sin".

Most of the stuff in the bible is nonsense made up by humans claiming to speak for God. Bigotry does not rely on logic.


Religious people do not follow the Bible literally, considering it contradicts itself, and most if not all of them break many rules set by it all the time.

 

[Satinavian]

A move to secularism is how you fix this. As long as people are religious they will inherently have a conservative tendency within them that will never leave since god's rules are above man's rules and if your puny little brain thinks something is unfair or wrong that's easily explained away by our imperfect faculties being unable to comprehend god's plan.

Pretty much all of eastern Europe has had religion forcefully suppressed for decades under communist rule. Didn't help one bit with attitudes towards homosexuals.

Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.

Rubbish.

The only ones who used that kind of reasoning were the Nazis. Which is also a pretty good example of how extreme secular homophobia can be.

 

[stroopwafel]

I'm not surprised eastern Europe is so militant about it's mono-ethnic, traditional values as the trauma of Soviet occupation never really went away. Maybe they sleep better at night thinking if they reproduced like bunnies and keep 'teh gay' and the immigrant at the door they won't get trampled again by a foreign invader. PiS and Orban in particular seem prone to this paranoia.

But ofcourse, it's easy to judge. They were the ones sacrificed at the 1945 Yalta conference to placate the Soviets so maybe their suspiscious nature is a poor omen for the rest of the developed world. It's not like their rethoric don't have faint echoes in western Europe and the U.S. where much of the same anxieties exist.

 

[Saelune]

I'm not surprised eastern Europe is so militant about it's mono-ethnic, traditional values as the trauma of Soviet occupation never really went away. Maybe they sleep better at night thinking if they reproduced like bunnies and keep 'teh gay' and the immigrant at the door they won't get trampled again by a foreign invader. PiS and Orban in particular seem prone to this paranoia.

But ofcourse, it's easy to judge. They were the ones sacrificed at the 1945 Yalta conference to placate the Soviets so maybe their suspiscious nature is a poor omen for the rest of the developed world. It's not like their rethoric don't have faint echoes in western Europe and the U.S. where much of the same anxieties exist.

I mean, when you exterminate most of the innocent population, you're just left with a bunch of Nazis. The surviving Nazis did not cease to exist, they just went back to raising families.

 

[stroopwafel]

I'm not surprised eastern Europe is so militant about it's mono-ethnic, traditional values as the trauma of Soviet occupation never really went away. Maybe they sleep better at night thinking if they reproduced like bunnies and keep 'teh gay' and the immigrant at the door they won't get trampled again by a foreign invader. PiS and Orban in particular seem prone to this paranoia.

But ofcourse, it's easy to judge. They were the ones sacrificed at the 1945 Yalta conference to placate the Soviets so maybe their suspiscious nature is a poor omen for the rest of the developed world. It's not like their rethoric don't have faint echoes in western Europe and the U.S. where much of the same anxieties exist.

I mean, when you exterminate most of the innocent population, you're just left with a bunch of Nazis. The surviving Nazis did not cease to exist, they just went back to raising families.

Hitler invading Poland was the start of WW2 and eastern Europe has been in the crossfire from the march of the Red Army to the end of the Cold War. No one even cared to intervene when Hitler invaded Sudetenland and confiscated an autonomous piece of Slovakian territory. Same after WW2 and the Yalta conference. Their paranoia doesn't exist in a historic vacuum and it's not b/c they are 'nazis'.

 

[Saelune]

I'm not surprised eastern Europe is so militant about it's mono-ethnic, traditional values as the trauma of Soviet occupation never really went away. Maybe they sleep better at night thinking if they reproduced like bunnies and keep 'teh gay' and the immigrant at the door they won't get trampled again by a foreign invader. PiS and Orban in particular seem prone to this paranoia.

But ofcourse, it's easy to judge. They were the ones sacrificed at the 1945 Yalta conference to placate the Soviets so maybe their suspiscious nature is a poor omen for the rest of the developed world. It's not like their rethoric don't have faint echoes in western Europe and the U.S. where much of the same anxieties exist.

I mean, when you exterminate most of the innocent population, you're just left with a bunch of Nazis. The surviving Nazis did not cease to exist, they just went back to raising families.

Hitler invading Poland was the start of WW2 and eastern Europe has been in the crossfire from the march of the Red Army to the end of the Cold War. No one even cared to intervene when Hitler invaded Sudetenland and confiscated an autonomous piece of Slovakian territory. Same after WW2 and the Yalta conference. Their paranoia doesn't exist in a historic vacuum and it's not b/c they are 'nazis'.

Judging from the shit modern Poland is saying about LGBT people, I am sticking with 'Nazis'.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

A move to secularism is how you fix this. As long as people are religious they will inherently have a conservative tendency within them that will never leave since god's rules are above man's rules and if your puny little brain thinks something is unfair or wrong that's easily explained away by our imperfect faculties being unable to comprehend god's plan.

Pretty much all of eastern Europe has had religion forcefully suppressed for decades under communist rule. Didn't help one bit with attitudes towards homosexuals.

Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.

Rubbish.

The only ones who used that kind of reasoning were the Nazis. Which is also a pretty good example of how extreme secular homophobia can be.

Communism is an atheistic religion where the party takes the place of god. It's hardly what one can accurately refer to as secular. You are confusing atheist for secular. Communism was both atheistic and very very dogmatic in a religious sense. Just look at all the mythology about the north korean dictators and tell me that's not religious in nature.

Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.

The city-states of Ancient Greece were fighting amongst themselves constantly, and yet at least a number of them accepted homosexuality. Promoting it, in some cases, such as the Sacred Band of Thebes which was made up exclusively of gay lovers, the idea being they'd fight harder to protect each other.

The type of homosexuality practiced in ancient Greece is more akin to bisexuality in modern terms. There was this concept of mentor (mentoras/μέντορα&#962where a younger boy would be initiated into sexual situations by an older man as a way of educating the younger boy. The man would also have a wife, with whom he'd reproduce, though. It wasn't exclusively homosexual.

The basic description of it was "women for reproduction, boys for fun".

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

So, is this about Poland and LGBT rights, or religion?

Or, is it both? I mean, shock of all shocks, religion makes otherwise rational people behave irrationally.

It's about how organized religion and the state should never cross, and that secularism shouldn't be up to the debate.

I'm not surprised eastern Europe is so militant about it's mono-ethnic, traditional values as the trauma of Soviet occupation never really went away.

Here's the thing, though. It doesn't go away, because politicians don't want it go away. Right wing politicians. Like Orban or Kaczynski. They prey on this kind of paranoid thinking, knowingly and cynically utilizing it for their own means.
It's been 30 fucking years since the Iron Curtain fell. Doesn't stop the PM of my country from spewing bullshit about our judiciary system being overrun with stalinist judges. And of course it's bullcrap. And he knows that. But crap like this allows to stretch the Overton Window just a bit in the side they prefer, which makes less outrageously stupid, but still harmful stuff pass.

 

[Kwak]

But then I wonder why you hate religion? You know it's true purpose (other than to explain things before science) was to spread peace and love.

Citation for that please. That was never a feature of any religion that I'm aware of until Christ. So authentic christianity probably, but I don't think 'peace and love' is the central teaching of any other religion. It's about obedience to dogma for deferred hypothetical reward.

... Why are you asking me that when I'm quoting the poster who actually said it?

Yeah I missed that, sorry.

I just cannot accept that the 'true' purpose of religion is to spread peace and love. Buddhism, maybe, if you accept its purpose is to end the suffering of all lifeforms, but I'm not sure that truly qualifies still.
It seems practising peace and love is always a carrot/stick situation, you do it because you want the reward promised by the metaphysical model you subscribe to, it's never the end goal in itself for the material life that is here and now.
Anyway, sorry for the digression from the topic.

 

[Baffle]

The type of homosexuality practiced in ancient Greece is more akin to bisexuality in modern terms. There was this concept of mentor (mentoras/μέντορα&#962where a younger boy would be initiated into sexual situations by an older man as a way of educating the younger boy.

If I'm honest, older men initiating young boys into sexual relationships in modern terms would be paedophilia, not bisexuality. I think it's quite important (and very easy) not to confuse those completely different things.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The type of homosexuality practiced in ancient Greece is more akin to bisexuality in modern terms. There was this concept of mentor (mentoras/μέντορα&#962where a younger boy would be initiated into sexual situations by an older man as a way of educating the younger boy.

If I'm honest, older men initiating young boys into sexual relationships in modern terms would be paedophilia, not bisexuality. I think it's quite important (and very easy) not to confuse those completely different things.

Younger boys is kinda broad and there's no specific age group that it really applied to. So for example, I'm sure some of them would have been over the modern age of consent in Greece in at least some cases (15 years old) and they definitely would be post-puberty. Also, this was not a thing that'd be done with girls too, just boys, which is what is being described as homosexuality or bisexual. I believe the idea was that men needed education whereas women were more objects to the act so they had no need for a similar education, though I'm sure some people just outright preferred the boys to other people and those would indeed be the pedophiles you're talking about. Just have to keep in mind that that's a sub-segment of the group. Like how you must had gay people reproduce with women because of the need in warriors so you had mentors who were in a sense just doing their duty and weren't actually into the boys.

All in all it's kinda silly to judge with moral standards of the modern age what occurred 2500~ years ago though.