[Politics] Poland Government is SUPER anti-LGBT

Baffle

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Dreiko said:
All in all it's kinda silly to judge with moral standards of the modern age what occurred 2500~ years ago though.
Well ... you said in modern terms, and in modern terms older men having sex with (well, raping in modern terms) young boys would be paedophiles. I don't think we need to dress this up as something it isn't -- in modern terms, which is how you wanted to talk about it, that's being paedophile. And a rapist, obviously.
 

Marik2

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Abomination said:
trunkage said:
I'd also point out Buddhism started before Christ. It's more lovey dovey than Christianity
Yeah but if you're poor don't worry, when you reincarnate you'll be rich because of your suffering... please don't revolt, it'll be bad for your karma, know your place.
That's more with Hinduism caste system, than Buddhism to be honest.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Baffle2 said:
Dreiko said:
All in all it's kinda silly to judge with moral standards of the modern age what occurred 2500~ years ago though.
Well ... you said in modern terms, and in modern terms older men having sex with (well, raping in modern terms) young boys would be paedophiles. I don't think we need to dress this up as something it isn't -- in modern terms, which is how you wanted to talk about it, that's being paedophile. And a rapist, obviously.
What I am referring to with "modern terms" is the term "homosexuality" that was applied by the post I was quoting, which is also a modern term. They didn't use either term back in the day and had no concept of homosexuality because everyone was bisexual and it just wasn't something that was differentiated, in any context. I was not specifically referring to the mentor cases when talking about bysexuality. That was a separate point in a separate sentence.

Also, most of the time it wasn't actually sex, it was more education about how the body works and so on which in modern times crosses lines to at least molestation but back then was a literal part of education. Like, you know how you take a health class? That's how they did it back then because they didn't have the baggage of repressive anti-sex religions or the knowledge of how children are negatively affected when exposed to these situations too early.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Saelune said:
Dreiko said:
Saelune said:
People use religion as an excuse. I mean, I am sure without it, there would still be anti-LGBT people who just say 'its gross and weird', but the number 1 'argument' against LGBT people is that it is 'sinful' or whatever that religion's version of sin is. Though it is most pronounced in Judeo-based religions, ie Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
Those religions came from a wartime era where your military prowess was based on the number of bodies you could put in a battlefield. They had to treat all sorts of non-reproduction-based sexuality as bad cause they needed fighters to go drive away the Canaanites and whomever else and if your sexuality makes you not reproduce then it's "sinful". It's the same reasoning why you see some religious folks have like 20 kids. They're following that stuff literally.


Not sure about whether you'd have some form of anti-gay sentiment but it'd definitively not be as intense. Like in Japan for example, where they treat it as more like a fetish than a "sin".
Most of the stuff in the bible is nonsense made up by humans claiming to speak for God. Bigotry does not rely on logic.
There's quite a few religious doctrines that seem like non-sense, but make sense in the context of when they were written/introduced.

Jews can't eat pork or shell-fish. Why? Pork and shell-fish spoil faster and are more likely to give you food poisoning, causing you to be unable to work, or possibly even death. The religious leaders decided that people were too stupid to not eat those foods of their own free will, so they forced them to stop by telling them that god says it's a sin. To the religious leaders their congregations were in danger and they made up these doctrines to protect them.

In a way it's admirable. Imagine if modern religious organizations really cared about the well-being of the world. What if the pope and all of the catholic priests said that CO2 emissions are a sin and everyone who doesn't reduce their carbon footprint is going to hell, and the majority of the world were religious enough to believe them and it stopped global warming?

Same idea basically. The problem is that cultural mores change and not everything that was a threat to survival in the past still is. The advent of refrigeration made it perfectly safe to eat shell-fish even hundreds of miles from the ocean, so there's no reason that Jews shouldn't be able to eat shell-fish. The problem is, when you claim that something is "the word of god" it's really hard to amend it.

There's no reason that gays should be maligned. People in the past may have been worried about fertility rates or what have you, but with a human population of 7.5 billion it's a complete non-issue. It's just hard to overturn hundreds of years of religious dogma. If a religious organization admits that it was wrong about something it loses power, because a religious organization can't be wrong about anything if they believe that their god is infallible and that the organization is getting their information doctrine directly from god.
 

Abomination

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Marik2 said:
Abomination said:
trunkage said:
I'd also point out Buddhism started before Christ. It's more lovey dovey than Christianity
Yeah but if you're poor don't worry, when you reincarnate you'll be rich because of your suffering... please don't revolt, it'll be bad for your karma, know your place.
That's more with Hinduism caste system, than Buddhism to be honest.
The two religions are very similar in how they attempt to organise their social hierarchy.

Buddhism is probably the... "least bad" out of the major religions. But when you unpack the belief system it's just another social control method.
 

Baffle

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Dreiko said:
Also, most of the time it wasn't actually sex, it was more education about how the body works and so on which in modern times crosses lines to at least molestation but back then was a literal part of education. Like, you know how you take a health class? That's how they did it back then because they didn't have the baggage of repressive anti-sex religions or the knowledge of how children are negatively affected when exposed to these situations too early.
While I might be in the minority, I managed to get through the whole education system without being touched up by a teacher. Thank god for repressive anti-sex religions I say!
 

Saelune

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Used to be defending pedophilia and concentration camps was seen as a bad thing.
 

Schadrach

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Saelune said:
and comparing LGBT people to pedophiles.
To be fair, MAPs have been trying to do that themselves an awful lot, especially lately. Also they consider that word a slur (and so you have slurred someone based on their sexual preferences, you bigot!), preferring "minor attracted persons" or MAPs (as they finally decide to rev up the euphemism treadmill).

I mean, I agree with your bigotry in this case, but that's neither here nor there.

And if you think I invented this whole MAP thing from whole cloth, just search for them on social media.
 

Saelune

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Schadrach said:
Saelune said:
and comparing LGBT people to pedophiles.
To be fair, MAPs have been trying to do that themselves an awful lot, especially lately. Also they consider that word a slur (and so you have slurred someone based on their sexual preferences, you bigot!), preferring "minor attracted persons" or MAPs (as they finally decide to rev up the euphemism treadmill).

I mean, I agree with your bigotry in this case, but that's neither here nor there.

And if you think I invented this whole MAP thing from whole cloth, just search for them on social media.
You could like, just agree with me, instead of making this passive aggressive attack on my character.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Baffle2 said:
Dreiko said:
Also, most of the time it wasn't actually sex, it was more education about how the body works and so on which in modern times crosses lines to at least molestation but back then was a literal part of education. Like, you know how you take a health class? That's how they did it back then because they didn't have the baggage of repressive anti-sex religions or the knowledge of how children are negatively affected when exposed to these situations too early.
While I might be in the minority, I managed to get through the whole education system without being touched up by a teacher. Thank god for repressive anti-sex religions I say!
Well, of course you did. There are other issues besides merely being touched that can also be a problem for people's lives and it is those issues that are caused or at least contributed to by the anti-sex religion. Stuff like higher degree of stds like aids and unwanted pregnancies and so on as well as a whole host of sexual complexes and gender bias. I heard a story about some crazy religious conservative americanss going to Africa and railing against using contraception and preaching abstinence. Pretty sure aids is not gonna go away that way.
 

Trunkage

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Dreiko said:
Baffle2 said:
Dreiko said:
Also, most of the time it wasn't actually sex, it was more education about how the body works and so on which in modern times crosses lines to at least molestation but back then was a literal part of education. Like, you know how you take a health class? That's how they did it back then because they didn't have the baggage of repressive anti-sex religions or the knowledge of how children are negatively affected when exposed to these situations too early.
While I might be in the minority, I managed to get through the whole education system without being touched up by a teacher. Thank god for repressive anti-sex religions I say!
Well, of course you did. There are other issues besides merely being touched that can also be a problem for people's lives and it is those issues that are caused or at least contributed to by the anti-sex religion. Stuff like higher degree of stds like aids and unwanted pregnancies and so on as well as a whole host of sexual complexes and gender bias. I heard a story about some crazy religious conservative americanss going to Africa and railing against using contraception and preaching abstinence. Pretty sure aids is not gonna go away that way.
Or just learning about rape and how not to do it.

I find it funny how we also focus on sex and not on relationships and then wonder why there's so much confusion
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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trunkage said:
Dreiko said:
Baffle2 said:
Dreiko said:
Also, most of the time it wasn't actually sex, it was more education about how the body works and so on which in modern times crosses lines to at least molestation but back then was a literal part of education. Like, you know how you take a health class? That's how they did it back then because they didn't have the baggage of repressive anti-sex religions or the knowledge of how children are negatively affected when exposed to these situations too early.
While I might be in the minority, I managed to get through the whole education system without being touched up by a teacher. Thank god for repressive anti-sex religions I say!
Well, of course you did. There are other issues besides merely being touched that can also be a problem for people's lives and it is those issues that are caused or at least contributed to by the anti-sex religion. Stuff like higher degree of stds like aids and unwanted pregnancies and so on as well as a whole host of sexual complexes and gender bias. I heard a story about some crazy religious conservative americanss going to Africa and railing against using contraception and preaching abstinence. Pretty sure aids is not gonna go away that way.
Or just learning about rape and how not to do it.

I find it funny how we also focus on sex and not on relationships and then wonder why there's so much confusion
When you have people who believe in literal magic that says "raping a virgin cures aids" you have a lot of work ahead of you and it's gonna take multiple generations to "learn not to do it".
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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Dirty Hipsters said:
Jews can't eat pork or shell-fish. Why? Pork and shell-fish spoil faster and are more likely to give you food poisoning, causing you to be unable to work, or possibly even death. The religious leaders decided that people were too stupid to not eat those foods of their own free will, so they forced them to stop by telling them that god says it's a sin. To the religious leaders their congregations were in danger and they made up these doctrines to protect them.
I mean maybe thats why pork and shellfish went that way, some benevolent but manipulative religious leader realised it made people sick and decided to declare it a sin just to help people.

It's also possible that they simply didn't understand why this was happening because they didn't understand food poisoning yet, they just saw a guy eat these things and get sick and assumed god was punishing them in the form of shitting out their guts.
 

Nielas

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MrCalavera said:
stroopwafel said:
I'm not surprised eastern Europe is so militant about it's mono-ethnic, traditional values as the trauma of Soviet occupation never really went away.
Here's the thing, though. It doesn't go away, because politicians don't want it go away. Right wing politicians. Like Orban or Kaczynski. They prey on this kind of paranoid thinking, knowingly and cynically utilizing it for their own means.
It's been 30 fucking years since the Iron Curtain fell. Doesn't stop the PM of my country from spewing bullshit about our judiciary system being overrun with stalinist judges. And of course it's bullcrap. And he knows that. But crap like this allows to stretch the Overton Window just a bit in the side they prefer, which makes less outrageously stupid, but still harmful stuff pass.
Unfortunately it is not just politicians. For many people the wounds never really healed. I left Poland when I was still a kid so it did not really effect me but for may parents, the communist system destroyed their dreams. They moved on as best as they could and made a great life for myself and my sister but I can still see the anger when they talk about the stuff that happened back then. My aunt was even worse affected and she never really recovered. The end of communism was supposed to make things better but it did not for a lot of people. The corruption continued and many people who profited under communism continued to profit. On a fundamental level PiS scares the hell out of me but I understand why they have so much support among people like my family.