I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."
Why should the US ever be unwelcoming to immigrants in the first place? Why should this not be the same United States of America that most that came here were entitled to receive? You don't get in and then lock the door behind you and say screw all ya'll I got mine. No this is what the US meant to many that came here:
Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
That welcome should be for everyone, not just those that got in and tried to lock the door behind them. I don't even know what makes people think they have the right to lock the door behind them in the first place. My tribe was one of the earliest one's here and we sure as hell didn't lock the door, if we had most would not be here at all.
The only reason I see this happening at all is due to sheer greed. The US is far from being overpopulated.
I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."
As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.
Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.
Why bother making this post? People can read this thread and know that what you're saying isn't true. Nobody has justified any type of abuse in this thread.
Nobody has had any problem condemning the actual instances of abuse that have occurred.
The things that have been defended aren't abuse. You're just insisting that detention centers exist to torture immigrants, and you're wrong.
I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
Considering the people reporting the physical and sexual abuse taking place in the camps and detention centers, yes, "torture" would be applicable. In addition, denying the immigrants the ability to bathe or have access to proper hygiene causes an increase in staph infections and spread of disease.
I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."
I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."
As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.
Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.
Yea, since ya know, the US is supposed to be against Human right's abuses, instead of making other nation uninhabitable for their people, it would be helpful for US policy to actually help them make their countries successful so they do not need to risk their lives further to move to the US in order to survive in the first place. US foreign policy is hugely responsible for many of the horrific conditions these people are being forced to endure in the first place.US economic policy and it's tendency to "crush" nations that try to focus on helping their people instead of catering to the promotion of US capitalism due to being worried about the spread of " socialism" is one of the largest factors fueling the destabilization of many nations forcing the migrants from their homes in the first place. If the US policy instead shifted to genuinely helping them become self sustaining rather than an exploitation hub for US companies, the forced migration would become far less of an issue.
I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."
As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.
Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.
I actually have been curious why the Pentagon doesn't just send the Navy SEALs to deal with MS13. Its not like we care about international borders or independent governance. Just set up a command, get drones flying, and in 3-5 weeks have 15 different MS13 hot spots to send a hundred or so SEALs in, never once consulting with Mexico, or maybe letting a few officials in on meetings.
And we're okay with people being raped in order to "deter" people? That may not be the intent, but it's sure as hell happening and we're not doing anything about it. In fact, policies of these camps and the US government seem more than intent on causing harm by refusing things as simple as blankets. I'd hope we could both agree inflicting hypothermia on someone is torture.
Actually, no. Let's set that aside for a moment. Deterrence isn't then intent. This clearly isn't the intent because it wasn't the people running the camps who made a big deal about conditions. You look at officials, or virtually any major Republican politician, and they will defend the camps against claims that they're horrible. They're downplaying it. They're generally offended by comparison to anything negative.
But let's take it a step further: it's not working.
When Trump took office, illegal immigration was at a record low. It's gone up, even with news of these camps. Even if the intent is to deter immigration, it's absolutely failed. In reality, it's quite possible people escaping death squads are willing to risk concentration camps in order to escape, and there's nothing we can do that's as awful without intentionally and directly inflicting harm. I mean, I'm assuming you wouldn't be cool with executions or amputations or other things these countries do to their civilians, so how can we ever expect to be bad enough to deter people from coming here? Especially when migrants already die coming here, and they're willing to take that chance.
We're going to need to recreate those conditions before people will stop rolling the dice to come here.
I suspect the current administration will be down with that, and Fox News will give the new death camps a cutesy name before going on to attack AOC or Hillary's emails, but I really hope our country isn't cool with that.
I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.
By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."
As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.
Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.
I actually have been curious why the Pentagon doesn't just send the Navy SEALs to deal with MS13. Its not like we care about international borders or independent governance. Just set up a command, get drones flying, and in 3-5 weeks have 15 different MS13 hot spots to send a hundred or so SEALs in, never once consulting with Mexico, or maybe letting a few officials in on meetings.
I think you're making a bad assumption. You assume that the US doesn't want MS13 to exist. I don't think that true. (Even if they want MS13 out of the US, doesn't mean they want to get rid of then everywhere.)
This is what I've been saying from the start. We wouldn't be dealing with the current immigration wave if the Obama administration hadn't fucked around in Honduras. It just happens to be the case if anyone suggests Obama may have done something with less than perfect consequences, somewhere in the world, at some time, people bust out the torches and pitchforks. NAFTA, CAFTA, and decades' of coups and propping up awful regimes in South America, are responsible for the overwhelming share of suffering and displacement in Latin America which has led millions to seek refuge inside the United States...all for the sake of corporate profits, here and abroad.
I'll be the asshole of the thread and point something out I desperately feel needs to be pointed out. Those "concentration camps", awful as they are, are still nothing compared to the shit immigrants put up with just to get here in the first place.
Give me a bit, and I can probably dig up the photos I found a year or two back, of immigrants wading through sewage and toxic industrial waste in the maquila zone, wearing makeshift hazmat suits of plastic shopping bags and duct tape. That's the reality of illegal immigration into the United States -- forced drug muling and prostitution, rape, starvation and exposure, murder, kidnapping and ransoming, some of the worst behavior imaginable.
Believe me I'm under zero delusion this phenomenon isn't due to our border and immigration policy. Prohibition doesn't work, and when a popular practice gets banned, people turn to criminals to participate in that practice. This is precisely why we need comprehensive border and immigration reform, to ensure we have an expedient and efficient system for admitting immigrants and providing them pathways to citizenship. However, that does not change the practice, nor its current means or ends.
Yes, there is a practical and moral imperative for interim housing facilities. But these facilities, as they are, are not the way to do it. We need facilities that can house immigrants and refugees in humane conditions, with access to food, shelter, basic medical care, education, and gainful employment opportunities so they can build lives for themselves as opposed to being shuffled immediately into a permanent migrant underclass. In short, we need a productive and positive system, such that prospective immigrants and refugees voluntarily remand themselves into custody for the best-possible outcomes for themselves and their families.
This is what I've been saying from the start. We wouldn't be dealing with the current immigration wave if the Obama administration hadn't fucked around in Honduras. It just happens to be the case if anyone suggests Obama may have done something with less than perfect consequences, somewhere in the world, at some time, people bust out the torches and pitchforks. NAFTA, CAFTA, and decades' of coups and propping up awful regimes in South America, are responsible for the overwhelming share of suffering and displacement in Latin America which has led millions to seek refuge inside the United States...all for the sake of corporate profits, here and abroad.
I'll be the asshole of the thread and point something out I desperately feel needs to be pointed out. Those "concentration camps", awful as they are, are still nothing compared to the shit immigrants put up with just to get here in the first place.
Give me a bit, and I can probably dig up the photos I found a year or two back, of immigrants wading through sewage and toxic industrial waste in the maquila zone, wearing makeshift hazmat suits of plastic shopping bags and duct tape. That's the reality of illegal immigration into the United States -- forced drug muling and prostitution, rape, starvation and exposure, murder, kidnapping and ransoming, some of the worst behavior imaginable.
Believe me I'm under zero delusion this phenomenon isn't due to our border and immigration policy. Prohibition doesn't work, and when a popular practice gets banned, people turn to criminals to participate in that practice. This is precisely why we need comprehensive border and immigration reform, to ensure we have an expedient and efficient system for admitting immigrants and providing them pathways to citizenship. However, that does not change the practice, nor its current means or ends.
Yes, there is a practical and moral imperative for interim housing facilities. But these facilities, as they are, are not the way to do it. We need facilities that can house immigrants and refugees in humane conditions, with access to food, shelter, basic medical care, education, and gainful employment opportunities so they can build lives for themselves as opposed to being shuffled immediately into a permanent migrant underclass. In short, we need a productive and positive system, such that prospective immigrants and refugees voluntarily remand themselves into custody for the best-possible outcomes for themselves and their families.
In late 1920s, the new Soviet Russia were heavily persecuting Jews. France also had a massive swing against the Jews too. If you know your geography, you could probably guess where these Jews were fleeing too. If you know anything about Germany at that time, they were pretty left leaning. The German population wasn't particularly happy with this predicament and the set up these camps. A left leaning politician went in and noticed how poorly these people were treated. Lice ridden blankets, poor sanitation, malnourishment, the whole works. If you might have guess, these were called Concentration Camps. More than 5 years before Nazis took power. 12 or more years before gas chambers were ever thought of being added. (Thus Liberals set up Concentration Camps, which will just make some people's day, once again proving liberals are the worst. And then not realising that the Liberals bad idea didn't cause genocide, as it had been taken over.) Also, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.
Gulag were work camps, that worked people to literal death. About 10 to 15% of the population. But, under the Tsar, the death rates were even higher in his prisons. This does not at all make the Gulags acceptable. Just because Soviet Gulags caused less death than the Tsars, doesn't not make them good like some Communists claim. The Jewish Ghettos were used for centuries beforehand and still let Jews go to work, making them better than Concentration Camps. That does not make Ghettos a good thing.
Yes, this is another rant about people blowing things out of proportion. Yes, I also understand terms are trying to convey decades worth of history and people get mixed up with what particular time people are talking about. Yes, it's me again, talking about things (eg, terrible notions) being a spectrum, not either good or bad like a switch. But anyways, thoughts?
Well, I was trying to stay away from Trump as it seems to offend people quickly. It really gums up the conversation. But, it probably would have gotten back there anyway... so, sure
Anyone who votes for this administration at this point is irredeemable garbage who can drop the pretence of holding any good human qualities. Just embrace what you are and stop the act.
The Trump Administration Is Making Immigrant Parents Pay $800 for DNA Tests to Get Their Kids Back
....
The July 10 deadline for the Trump administration to reunite detained families with their children under 5 years old has passed. Predictably, and infuriatingly, they failed to meet that deadline. It's predictable because the administration repeatedly tried to get the deadline extended, mostly on grounds that they knew they couldn't meet it. And it's infuriating because while Trump eagerly rushed into his "zero tolerance" and family-separation policies, it's been clear since the beginning that his administration had no plans or methods for reuniting families once they were forced apart.
It's not hard to conclude that family reunification isn't a priority. The Department of Homeland Security has claimed it has a database of separated children and parents but has never proved it exists. Trump himself has said that the procedure for reuniting families is "don't come to our country illegally" in the first place. And now, as the Daily Beast reports, government officials have told at least four immigrant women that to get their children back, they'll have to pay for their own DNA tests to prove that they're related:
The tests are the latest ad hoc effort by the Trump administration to reunite families it had separated?in some cases because authorities took documents from adults proving they are related to their children. The tests are being administered by a private contractor on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services' Office of Refugee Resettlement, which oversees the care and housing of children. HHS has refused to name the contractor, which may be a violation of federal law.
HHS replied by claiming that they provide DNA tests free of charge, but reports from both the director for the immigrant shelter where the women are staying and an immigration lawyer who works with the shelter contradict that. The women are reportedly being told to pay between $700 and $800.
This corresponds with other stories of the government demanding steep fees to release immigrant children from custody. Family members already in the U.S. who attempt to sponsor detained children have been told they must pay hefty airplane tickets. A construction worker in Los Angeles, for example, tried to take in a 14-year-old relative taken from her mother when crossing the border. The girl would only be released into the custody of a family member?and only if that family member paid $1,800 to fly her and an escort from Houston. Immigrant and youth-rights advocates have accused the government of trying to raise barriers that make it impossible for typically poor people to free their family members.
Well, I was trying to stay away from Trump as it seems to offend people quickly. It really gums up the conversation. But, it probably would have gotten back there anyway... so, sure
Certainly. I mean, your "Concentration Camps already existed in Germany 5 years before Nazis took power" reminded me of "migrant families were already being separated before Trump's administration": only half-true, as they originally weren't implemented even remotely in the same twisted way.
IAlso, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.
IAlso, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.
Well, I was trying to stay away from Trump as it seems to offend people quickly. It really gums up the conversation. But, it probably would have gotten back there anyway... so, sure
Certainly. I mean, your "Concentration Camps already existed in Germany 5 years before Nazis took power" reminded me of "migrant families were already being separated before Trump's administration": only half-true, as they originally weren't implemented even remotely in the same twisted way.
To fuether this, the Concentration Camps at the start of the Nazi regime barely resembled what they were like at the end.
This term, like many others, has the problem of compressing time. Using it could represent anytime of the almost two decades of wildly differing states of the camps
IAlso, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.
The peom starts with the communists(...socialists(SPD, the soc dem party)...the rest etc..). The english translation of this left it out because muh red scare.
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