[Politics] UK Suspends Parliament

Dalisclock

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Silvanus said:
Dalisclock said:
Okay, that helps. So basically, without an election, the Conservatives don't have a majority(even with DUP) and it effectively ties their hand as a government unless they make deals with Labour(I think that's the biggest opposition party) and nobody really wants to schedule an election at the moment due to BoJo's Shenanigans? Am I getting this right so far?
Pretty much. Without a majority, the government cannot pass legislation without support from other parties, and the DUP are no longer enough. Opponents of "no-deal" are meanwhile able to pass legislation much more easily, and they've taken full advantage of this in the past few days.

Johnson hoped that by calling an election, he could win back a majority and then control the agenda. Labour had agreed with the Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid and the Greens that legislating against no-deal was a more immediate priority than bringing down the government, and thus decided not to risk the current situation by backing the election, since they already control the agenda more than the government. Labour made the right call strategically.
That helps a lot. Much appreciated.

It feels like reading news articles(Mostly NYT and Guardian) doesn't help that much because most seem to either not explain the implications/context very well(American Sources) or kinda assume you already know the context(British sources).

The weirdest thing for me is, being used to 2 main parties which more or less stand on opposing sides of many issues(with some variation and such), Brexit seems to be more or less to split the major British Parties, so trying to get a handle on just which ones are on which sides feels tricky and complicated.
 

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Kwak said:
I can't shake the feeling that BoJo looks like a Muppet who somehow gained self awareness and escaped from the Jim Henson Creature Shop. The fact the slang term Muppet also fits is just icing on the cake here.
 

Agema

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And there goes another cabinet minister - Amber Rudd has resigned in protest at the expulsion of moderate Tory MPs.

She's also pointed out that as far as she can see there is minimal evidence that Boris is trying to get a deal out of the EU, as well: the government seems to be aiming for a No Deal Brexit.
 

Silvanus

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So at present, the PM is legally obligated to request an extension from the EU before October 31st if a deal has not been reached with the EU and accepted by parliament. However, Johnson insists he will "under no circumstances" extend the deadline.

So, what outcomes are now possible?

A) A deal is reached with the EU and accepted by Parliament. Seems unlikely, given that Theresa May's deal was rejected by Parliament and the EU says it will not rewrite parts of the deal to suit the UK.

B) General Election called under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. Could provide a majority for a way forward (be it a deal, second referendum, or no-deal). However, it requires a 2/3 majority in parliament, and most opposition parties have agreed that no-deal must be blocked before an election proceeds.

C) Government calls a confidence vote in itself, loses on purpose, triggers an election. This is the only way for the government to trigger an election without the 2/3 majority mentioned above: this method requires only a simple majority. Considered the "nuclear option" given how ludicrous it looks for a ruling party to declare that it doesn't have confidence in itself.

D) Second referendum. Unlikely, since the Conservatives are dead against. Supported by Labour, the Lib Dems, and others, though. More likely that A, B or C at this point.

E) Johnson ignores the law requiring him to seek an extension, and just refuses to do so. Places him in contempt of Court. Incredibly, several Conservatives have given ambiguous answers when asked whether the government would comply with the law. Johnson may be jailed if this comes to pass, according to legal advice.

F) Johnson resigns to avoid asking for an extension. Conventionally, The Queen would be expected to then ask the leader of the opposition to attempt to form a government.

G) Johnson swallows his promises and requests an extension. Given how unequivocal he has been on this point, I imagine this would severely damage the Conservatives at the ballot box.

H) Extreme outlier possibility... the British government provokes the EU into kicking them out, thereby bypassing Parliament and leaving without a deal. One possible method for such provocation could be refusing to name a British commissioner. Even this would be extremely unlikely to actually succeed, however, and is the least likely possibility.
 

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Silvanus said:
So at present, the PM is legally obligated to request an extension from the EU before October 31st if a deal has not been reached with the EU and accepted by parliament. However, Johnson insists he will "under no circumstances" extend the deadline.

So, what outcomes are now possible?

A) A deal is reached with the EU and accepted by Parliament. Seems unlikely, given that Theresa May's deal was rejected by Parliament and the EU says it will not rewrite parts of the deal to suit the UK.

B) General Election called under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. Could provide a majority for a way forward (be it a deal, second referendum, or no-deal). However, it requires a 2/3 majority in parliament, and most opposition parties have agreed that no-deal must be blocked before an election proceeds.

C) Government calls a confidence vote in itself, loses on purpose, triggers an election. This is the only way for the government to trigger an election without the 2/3 majority mentioned above: this method requires only a simple majority. Considered the "nuclear option" given how ludicrous it looks for a ruling party to declare that it doesn't have confidence in itself.

D) Second referendum. Unlikely, since the Conservatives are dead against. Supported by Labour, the Lib Dems, and others, though. More likely that A, B or C at this point.

E) Johnson ignores the law requiring him to seek an extension, and just refuses to do so. Places him in contempt of Court. Incredibly, several Conservatives have given ambiguous answers when asked whether the government would comply with the law. Johnson may be jailed if this comes to pass, according to legal advice.

F) Johnson resigns to avoid asking for an extension. Conventionally, The Queen would be expected to then ask the leader of the opposition to attempt to form a government.

G) Johnson swallows his promises and requests an extension. Given how unequivocal he has been on this point, I imagine s to this would severely damage the Conservatives at the ballot box.

H) Extreme outlier possibility... the British government provokes the EU into kicking them out, thereby bypassing Parliament and leaving without a deal. One possible method for such provocation could be refusing to name a British commissioner. Even this would be extremely unlikely to actually succeed, however, and is the least likely possibility.
So if Bojo Refuses to ask for an extension and goes to jail, and the deadline comes to pass, does the UK No deal Brexit by default, or is there some work around to ask the EU for an extension, and is the EU even obligated to grant it?
 

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49626693/brexit-sajid-javid-on-whether-government-will-break-new-brexit-law
 

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Baffle2 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49626693/brexit-sajid-javid-on-whether-government-will-break-new-brexit-law
Good luck to all you Brits with the constitutional crisis that'll happen Oct 30th or so then...
 

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Baffle2 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49626693/brexit-sajid-javid-on-whether-government-will-break-new-brexit-law
Surely he'll just be pardon and declared the hero of Britain
 

Agema

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Silvanus said:
C) Government calls a confidence vote in itself, loses on purpose, triggers an election. This is the only way for the government to trigger an election without the 2/3 majority mentioned above: this method requires only a simple majority. Considered the "nuclear option" given how ludicrous it looks for a ruling party to declare that it doesn't have confidence in itself.
The word is that such an absurdity could be defeated by another absurdity: the oppostion voting to keep the government in power.

However, it might even not have to end in an election. I believe the Queen could instead ask someone else to collect enough MPs to become PM. Obviously at this juncture everyone who isn't committed to Tory insanity (Labour, SNP, LD, ex-Tories and Tory rebels, etc.) could have a chance at rallying behind a credible option. It could founder: Labour would want Corbyn, everyone else would want anyone else (Kenneth Clark and Harriet Harman have been mentioned).

One way or another, the British government has collapsed from farce under May into insanity under Johnson.
 

Agema

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trunkage said:
Baffle2 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49626693/brexit-sajid-javid-on-whether-government-will-break-new-brexit-law
Surely he'll just be pardon and declared the hero of Britain
In the UK, pardons are either statutory (via Parliament) or by royal prerogative. The former is preferred. The latter is exceptionally rare - about one a decade - and does not absolve the crime but merely reduces the sentence.

The chance of Parliament pardoning a man who tried to ignore and overrule Parliament must be in the region of 0%.
 

Silvanus

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Lil devils x said:
So if Bojo Refuses to ask for an extension and goes to jail, and the deadline comes to pass, does the UK No deal Brexit by default, or is there some work around to ask the EU for an extension, and is the EU even obligated to grant it?
Well, there's 12 days between the date by which Johnson is obligated to request the extension (19th October) and the current withdrawal date (31st October). I imagine Parliament would make some kind of emergency move during that time.

This is really uncharted territory, though. The very idea that the British government would openly break the law and sit in contempt of court would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago.
 
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Parliament now suspended. Bercow resigns in effort to avoid Tory scheme. Johnson loses further bids for early election. Floundering intensifies.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49645338

If you would like to be more productive than our unelected leaders are with brexit right now, drink heavily.
 

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I am just confused at this point. Johnson wants to leave the EU in October deal or not. British parliament doesn't. Johnson tried to sideline parliament by suspending them for a couple of weeks until just before the deadline. Parliament told him he wasn't allowed to leave without a deal before they were suspended. Then it gets fuzzy. Some people want an election and others don't and for some reason this possibly involves Johnson filing a motion of distrust against himself? What?
 

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Johnson has already prorogued (suspended) Parliament but till the 14th October. That's still enough time for Parliament to react to Brexit deadline on 31st October. I don't know why Johnson set such a long suspension time. However, he tried to get Parliament to agree a general election twice and failed. Once one is called, Parliament is dissolved, removing any method to quickly kick him out, and he can set the election date to whatever he likes, such as 31st October. He's not trusted to not break the law by refusing to request a Brexit deadline extension and waiting for the deadline to pass.

One of the crazier ideas is to get a loyalist MP to trigger a vote of no confidence then waive the right to ignore it. Only a call of vote of no confidence by the Leader of the Opposition is unblockable. I don't think it would happen as he'd be laughed at.
 

Agema

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Pseudonym said:
I am just confused at this point. Johnson wants to leave the EU in October deal or not. British parliament doesn't. Johnson tried to sideline parliament by suspending them for a couple of weeks until just before the deadline. Parliament told him he wasn't allowed to leave without a deal before they were suspended. Then it gets fuzzy. Some people want an election and others don't and for some reason this possibly involves Johnson filing a motion of distrust against himself? What?
So, Johnson is trying to get what he wants done. Parliament is obstructing him, so he has decided to shut it down basically so he can bypass it. That attempt basically failed, so instead he decided to call an opportunistic election in the hope that might give him enough MPs to pass what he wanted. So that got shut down.

Johnson could then have attempted to force an election by calling a vote of no confidence against himself, which if he lost could trigger an election (although a majority of MPs could decide to back a new interim PM who do "interesting stuff" first). However, evidently he decided that wasn't to be done.

warmachine said:
Johnson has already prorogued (suspended) Parliament but till the 14th October. That's still enough time for Parliament to react to Brexit deadline on 31st October. I don't know why Johnson set such a long suspension time.
Quite simply, he is trying to muzzle Parliament as much as possible so it has minimal ability to talk about or interfere with whatever he wanted to do. Effetively, whilst it's out action, it can't exercise any power. This gives him a free hand to scheme and exercise executive powers.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Could.....could you satirize this? I'm asking seriously because one of my favourite genres is political satire but for the fucking life of me I cannot fathom how you exaggerate and inflate this shit for comedy.
 

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Gordon_4 said:
Could.....could you satirize this? I'm asking seriously because one of my favourite genres is political satire but for the fucking life of me I cannot fathom how you exaggerate and inflate this shit for comedy.
You can only show it for the stupidity it really is. Very much like Trump, when the situation is so hopelessly dumb, you can't exaggerate it further into an effective satire, just go Louis Theroux/Sacha Baron Cohen and let the idiots show themselves for what they really are. The main issue is the people watching and still agreeing with them, and voting on it, because that's where we are now.
 

Agema

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Gordon_4 said:
Could.....could you satirize this? I'm asking seriously because one of my favourite genres is political satire but for the fucking life of me I cannot fathom how you exaggerate and inflate this shit for comedy.
I think sometimes reality is so close to farce it's effectively impossible to satirise.
 
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Aaaaaand here [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855] come the judges overturning the previous ruling about BoJo's proroguing of Parliament. So now that's going to have to go to our Supreme Court. Yaaaaay...