Poll: 4X: Coming or Going?

[Eyclonus]

I guess like all games there is an art to crafting 4X in a pleasant fashion.

 

[Asehujiko]

So basicly 4x are just slightly more pretentious rts/tbs games...?

If a genre's single defining point is it's superior to another genre, i wouldn't mind seeing the first category go in favor of the second.

I still have to scout arround for my opponent in almost all games(explore), build my base (expand), gather resources (exploit) and kill my opponent (exterminate). By that logic starcraft is a 4x, age of empires is a 4x and cnc3 is a 4x game. But saying that will get me flamed of any 4x forum in the world.

 

[Saskwach]

Here's a question: how much of a 4x do you learn about from the manual and how much do you try to pick up in play?
I found the most rewarding experience I've gotten from a 4x was playing Civ 2 - one of my first games. At my tender age, and with no manual provided, I toughed it out: it took me 5 minutes to figure out that I was controlling that blinking guy in the centre of the screen and not the city below him. It took me a couple more to realise I could move him with a press of the arrow keys. Through a series of blunders and mishaps I learned about the tech tree, city building and unit production and thought I was doing quite well for myself. I spent quite a while contented to simply hammer out a little empire on the mainland. So long in fact, that when my pre-medieval era civ came in contact with its nearest neighbour I couldn't help but feel they looked a little...odd. Why did their catapults look like rolling green boxes? Where were the horses pulling them along? Why was it that when their soldiers pointed their spears at our mighty warriors would fall bleeding to the ground.
Needless to say my first civ fought a long, slow losing battle until death - I contented myself with smashing one of their rolling catapults into the dust.
My point is that I found these bizarre moments almost worth the price of admission, and my lack of understanding made the game quite challenging, if not a losing proposition. Learning was a reward in itself: the first time I win in any 4x I've done it the hard way.
So...thoughts?

 

[Eyclonus]

Here's a question: how much of a 4x do you learn about from the manual and how much do you try to pick up in play?
I found the most rewarding experience I've gotten from a 4x was playing Civ 2 - one of my first games. At my tender age, and with no manual provided, I toughed it out: it took me 5 minutes to figure out that I was controlling that blinking guy in the centre of the screen and not the city below him. It took me a couple more to realise I could move him with a press of the arrow keys. Through a series of blunders and mishaps I learned about the tech tree, city building and unit production and thought I was doing quite well for myself. I spent quite a while contented to simply hammer out a little empire on the mainland. So long in fact, that when my pre-medieval era civ came in contact with its nearest neighbour I couldn't help but feel they looked a little...odd. Why did their catapults look like rolling green boxes? Where were the horses pulling them along? Why was it that when their soldiers pointed their spears at our mighty warriors would fall bleeding to the ground.
Needless to say my first civ fought a long, slow losing battle until death - I contented myself with smashing one of their rolling catapults into the dust.
My point is that I found these bizarre moments almost worth the price of admission, and my lack of understanding made the game quite challenging, if not a losing proposition. Learning was a reward in itself: the first time I win in any 4x I've done it the hard way.
So...thoughts?

Build Nukes?


In all seriousness yeah I get a similar feeling. Civ and the opensource knockoffs I've picked up quickly, excepting Civ-EVO which can fucking burn in the most forsaken hell where the Devil himself will shit on it, Alpha Centauri had a weird interface, like Civ2 but with just some odd changes and mind worms constantly wiping bases in the lowest difficulty.

Maybe its just easy to people who like 4X games, the mindset needed for one game series is usually quite well adjusted to other 4Xs. People who are crap at 4X rarely trumpet praise for their innovative design and meticulous settings. Maybe its case of "if you can play it, you'll love it, if you can't you'll hate it", like Scrabble.

I suppose I should give you guys some idea of Civ-EVO, think only hardest difficulty, the most trying interface, and the worst timescaling system. It took my only building unit 8 turns to get to the river which was preventing me from trading with an ally, where I ordered it to build a bridge.
Next turn a message pops saying I can't build a bridge with out a technology: "Bridge". To get this I needed to waste 7 turns of research for something that allows you to build a bridge. Once done I got my worker to build a bridge, in 9 turns. So it took me 8+7+9=24 years to build a bridge to a neighbour whose trade I was dependent on, who noted I'd gone 10 years without complying and promptly declared war and sued for peace twice, finally sacking my city when I was able to make the first delivery.

What was more annoying is I could've chosen between researching "wooden fencing" and "studded clothing" which would've easily won that war, but I needed to learn "bridges" and "roads" to have any money.

 

[Saskwach]

Well I'm never touching that game.