Poll: Alternate Viewing of Return of the Jedi | Luke already evil?

[sky pies]

In this article [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-conery/luke-skywalker-theory-destroys-everything-star-wars_b_8392698.html?utm_hp_ref=tw&ir=Australia] by one Rob Conery on huffington post the fascinating proposal is put forth that Luke is indeed already a Dark Jedi, that Return of the Jedi was not some final victory for the Light but was in fact just a chronicle of Luke's remarkably Anakin-like fall to evil.

I heartily recommend you read the article yourself before commenting, but I offer here this summation:

Luke turned. The post asserts from the beginning that we all saw what we thought we were seeing: Luke, dressed from head to toe in Black, condemned as a failure by Yoda, does take his saber and attempt to strike the Emperor down, completing his "journey" to the Dark Side as the Emperor threatened.

He turned because he wanted to save his friends and sister, who were both being heavily pressed by both daddy Vader and the Emperor right in front of him.

The original intended ending of Episode VI was that the rebellion would be all but destroyed, Leia would be 'struggling with her new duties as Queen' and Luke would be 'walking off into the sunset'.

This was all foreshadowed, as in the cave scene in Empire Strikes Back - which always struck me as being out of place and not entirely locked in with the rest of the plot - when Luke slices open Vader's ghostly helmet only to see his own face starting back at him.

Yoda warned Luke that he will fail - "If you end your training now... if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did... you will become an agent of evil" - later to Obi-Wan: "Told you I did, reckless is he... now... matters are worse."

Mark Hamill said that he thought Luke was a Dark Jedi after completing filming of Empire Strikes Back

It's easy to note a change in Luke's demeanor between the second and third installments of the original trilogy. Not only is he wearing all black - something that sat uneasily with me even when I was a 6 year old - he is also more serious - "A little more sinister" in the words of the author of the article - executing much more carefully lain and subtle plans.

Quoted in the article and re-quoted here:

Nevertheless, I'm taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this or be destroyed. It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my power

How many times have we heard agents of the Dark Side reiterate that one must not underestimate the power of the Dark Side? Luke then lies about his droids to get them onto the barge - lying? Lies? In a Jedi?

Without trying to spoiler the article any more, we can trace the implications of his growing fanatic embrace of the Dark Side throughout the climactic scene in the Emperor's Tower on the second Death Star.

For my part, I invite you all to watch the final scenes [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A] with this thought in mind: "Luke goes crazy, snaps and attacks the Emperor, freaks and whales on his dad, gets mindblown by his power after beating Vader, manipulates Vader into throwing the Emperor off a ledge just as the Emperor did to Anakin in the third movie when he cut off Mace Windu's hands, and is contemplating ruling the galaxy as father and son until a genuinely reformed Vader begs him to let him die.

Pay attention to how Hamill acts his character. The weird restrained, distant indecision and unbalance that we all picked up on when we were first getting to know this movie neatly translates as the actions of a snapped maniac who is now wandering into foggy Dark parts unknown. The final scene in this part of the film, where he takes Vader's helmet off, is the most intriguing - he is clearly at a loss to convince his dad to remain on the Dark Side, and struggling to find the words to dissuade him. He insists that Vader allow him to take him away and save him. save him, like Anakin yearned to save his wife?

[HEADING=3]Okay, what are your thoughts?[/HEADING]

Personally I love this viewing of the film. I really freaking love it. I think I'm going to keep both interpretations in my head and employ them when I see fit - watching the film with Luke as an already-gone Dark Jedi, or watching it as I have always watched it before today. Luke is such a more interesting character - a really modern character - when one imagines him as a failure who simply gets away with it.

I just really like how this theory actually seems to beef up the prequel trilogy, tying in a lot of the writing and increasing the meaning of scenes such as Windu's fall. Also it makes Luke much more human, an orphan who has idolized his father growing up in a harsh environment and gone on to emulate him all too literally - unlike Leia, who grew up in an environment of love on Alderaan and seems remarkably airy-fairy at the end of Episode VI...

I guess all we can do now is wait to see what Luke's up to in The Force Awakens.

Spoiler: Interesting tweet on the Episode VII poster

https://twitter.com/blowmage/status/656474683164897280/photo/1

 

[Kolby Jack]

Nah, it's bullshit. Luke DID start to go dark in Return of the Jedi (the revelation of who his father was as well as Obi-Wan's manipulative half-truths would do that) but he realized at the very end what he was becoming and threw down his saber, rejecting the path of Vader and embracing the Jedi Anakin once was. I think trying to interpret Luke's "good" gestures as secretly malicious says more about the way YOU think than it does make me question Luke. It's exceptionally cynical.

Luke's absence from the trailers and poster is suspicious, but doesn't imply anything yet other than they don't want to show him. If I had to guess I'd say it's because they want his inevitable appearance to have that much more punch, and to keep people focused on the new stars.

Besides, Luke has a beard now. Everybody knows human good guys in Star Wars have beards, and bad guys are clean shaven. Dooku doesn't count, because part of his character is that he believes he was a good guy all along.

 

[sky pies]

The article does seem to overlook

I see what you're doing here, but I feel that you may actually have missed out on a good few paragraphs of the article that address precisely what you say gets overlooked...

This from the article:

This next scene is one of the most telling. When I first saw it I thought that Luke was realizing that he gave in and that's bad. What I think really happened was that Luke was filled with blood lust and a surge of satisfaction at his victory. Staring at his fist... marveling at his power. And why wouldn't he be? He just kicked Vader's ass. Come on, tell me you wouldn't feel that too!

The emperor sees this as well. He thinks he has won Luke over -- he even gloats a bit:

Good.... Now, fulfill your destiny... and take your father's place at my side.

From the emperor's perspective it seems like this is all wrapped up, no? Vader is lying there on the floor, Luke just turned, let's close the deal! But...

You can watch what happens next in two very different ways. The first, most obvious, is that Luke looks at his mechanical fist and then at his dad's severed hand and realizes what could happen -- oh no! Let's make sure we come back from this ledge and stay on the Good side. This makes no sense in terms of Luke's motivations.

Or, what I think, is that Luke looked at his fist and realized the effectiveness of his new power. Soaked in the revenge (the movie was entitled Revenge of the Jedi originally, I think this is why) and let the hatred indeed fill him... indeed make him powerful.

Seeing that his father's hand he severed was actually robotic, much like Luke's hand, is what stopped him. He rejects these feelings and throws down his lightsaber proclaiming" I am a Jedi like my father before me".

A few more sentences from the article:

Now, watch as he turns, rises, and faces the emperor full of arrogance and brimming with dark power. I think Hamill played this scene brilliantly:

Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me...
This would seemingly blow a hole in my story. Luke just flatly said he would never turn. He monologs for a bit about why he'll be a Good Guy, always. He's also lying through his teeth (like he did to Jabba, above). But why would he lie? Because he has to take out the emperor, and he knows his dad (Vader) is weak and vulnerable.

 

[WolfThomas]

Neither and both. I subscribe to the idea that Luke finally brought balance to the force. He used emotion and passion (hate, love of his friends) to defeat his father, but rejected the pull of the dark side with the control and calmness of the Jedi. Hence his line "I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

I strongly believe that the pre-fall Jedi had strayed far from the traditional ideals and become subtly corrupt themselves, in a superficially-benign theocratic fascist sort of way. There's a scene in the prequels (which of course are terrible) where a Jedi Librarian states if a planet isn't in their records it doesn't exist. Basically narrow-minded indoctrinated cult stuff.

A new Jedi order under Luke would embrace their emotions but have control at the same time.

Edit: Oh I didn't see that bit about that line. I don't believe it's a lie.

 

[senordesol]

I think that's a real stretch of a theory. It's fun, don't get me wrong, but it assumes more about intent and motivation than I think are safely evident.

If anything, I think Luke's lack of training and subsequent attempts to revive the Jedi Order will have spawned Kylo Ren and his ilk.

In fact... the new villains are called 'The First Order'. Mayhap an ill-fated attempt to recreate the "primordial" Force user? To reject the 'petty' concepts of Light and Dark and simply an attempt to establish 'order'

 

[Fox12]

Giving Lucas WAY too much credit. This man:

Is not a storytelling mastermind. To say the ending was foreshadowed is to suggest that they had a planned ending. They didn't, they made much of it up as they went, and there were many other, better writers working on Star Wars at the time. More importantly, there wasn't really anything tempting Luke at the end of Jedi. He never desired power for its own sake, and there wasn't anything else to push him over the edge. I think him throwing away his lightsaber and allowing himself to be electrocuted made that pretty obvious. It was a sign of the light side of the force overcoming the dark. Besides, Lucas always made a big deal about Vader returning balance to the force, which can't be the case if Luke turns evil.

Honestly, this is fanfiction tier speculation.

 

[Asita]

Er...no. That's an incredibly forced reading which among other things ignores the simple fact that Return of the Jedi was the culmination of the series, the final movie which Lucas had no plans to go past. The guy went back and did the prequels, and then gave up ownership. The kind of interpretation being presented here is the kind that mandates that the series continue to showcase the implications, to say nothing of the fact that from a theatrical standpoint the scene is very unambiguous. The blocking, the music, the dialogue, the subsequent scenes, the only way to make the interpretation work is to assume that most if not all of those were chosen for the explicit purpose of deceiving the audience because they are structured to fit the idea that Luke pulled away from the Dark Side and continued to embrace the light.

You know how final bows give you insight to the characters' final nature and future? In Luke's case his final bow had him looking fondly at the force ghosts of his mentors and redeemed father before happily joining his sister to celebrate the Rebellion's victory over the Empire. That is not a sinister final bow. That is a compassionate one. No, he did not turn in Return. No, it is not ambiguous. He might have turned between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens, but the hypothesis being presented here is just sloppy fanfiction.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Nope. Granted, the film does have tones of Luke possibly being Dark--after all, the entire movie he is dressed in black, and that fight at the end he does do something that Jedi frown on and gives in to his anger, but in the end he triumphs. He doesn't turn to the Emperor full of arrogance. He turns to the Emperor full of pride, knowing that even if he is struck down, the Emperor has completely lost. As he said, "You've failed, your Highness." There is nothing more stinging to an enemy that is all-powerful than telling them that they have no power over your.

Luke looks at his fist not in triumph, but in horror. Watch how his eyes go wide for a second and he seems to gasp in shock. If anything, I'm betting that scene that he said made no sense--Luke seeing himself in Vader's armor in Empire Strikes Back--is playing through his head and he finally gets it. The hand is a literal reminder that he can become Darth Vader, more machine now than man, and he wants no part of it.

As for Luke's warning, "Do not underestimate my power," it is just that: A warning. Jedi are not these passive monks who sit on their hands. They are warriors. That's why they carry a sword that can easily kill a person after all. What Luke is doing is offering Jabba a chance to live. A chance to stand down and let him and his friends walk away. Keep in mind that Jabba now holds three of his friends captive, and has been holding one of them for a year.
Next, even when Luke is about to be executed--along with his friends again--Luke STILL offers Jabba chance to end things peacefully. That's even AFTER Jabba already tried to have him killed in the Pit. There is no way a Sith, or even someone who has turned to the Dark side, would be offering an enemy like that so many chances. The Jedi aren't above killing, they just look for other options first.

Luke's final fight with Vader is as much a struggle for Luke as it is a fight between Luke and Vader. He attacks the Emperor because he has to. The look on his face when he gets his saber isn't one of, "I'm going to KILL YOU!" or a man who has just snapped. It's the face of someone who knows what he has to do. Even during the opening of the fight, if you watch Luke, he's taking no joy in this. He's calm and collected, and the only time he shows any real emotion is when he kicks Vader down the stairs, and that's from the effort, not glee.
Then the Emperor says, "Use your aggressive feelings, boy," and Luke goes, 'Oh crap, he's right! I'm slipping' and turns of his lightsaber. It isn't until Vader pushes his buttons that he attacks again, and that's when Luke comes dangerously close to turning. But in the end, he doesn't.
Notice how the black outfit falls open and the inside is white--or at least light grey. That's not an accident. That thing has remained closed right up until Luke finally confirms that he's not falling to the Dark side.

So no, I don't think Luke turned. And if he has, I'm going to be pissed. I'm tried of heroes having to be "dark and tormented and tempted constantly" for people to like them. Sometimes, a person can be good just because they are good. Luke is like Captain America in my book, and if they change it to make him more 'edgy' I will be extremely ticked off.

 

[Nazulu]

Sounds like wank to me. Makes it feel so black and white (seriously, the whole hate just makes you evil shit is lame) and there is nothing to suggest at the end (where it shows us he controlled himself) that he's become demonic. Even if it was their intention, it's so incredibly subtle that it's stupid. Not only because we couldn't enjoy this transformation, but the prequels already did the fucking Jedi going Sith thing! Why would I want it again? How about thinking of a new way to kick it off?

 

[Hawki]

Poll needs a Grey Jedi option. Just sayin'

But no, I don't think it's foreshadowing anything. Luke gets close to the Dark Side, but pulls back in time. While post-RotJ is fair game in the current canon, in the context of the film itself, I'd say that Luke's pretty much definately on the side of the Light.

 

[Something Amyss]

This "theory" relies on proclaiming the simpler solutions don't make sense when they do, something is out of place when it isn't, etc.

Throw in something about how fire can't melt whatever the Death Star is made of and you have a Star Wars-themed conspiracy theory.

I should be in bed right now, so I'll just say the cave scene is brilliant without any alternative interpretation and plays into Luke's final battle with Vader perfectly without any alternate explanation, either. These pieces do not need anything extra to make them fit.

Hell, even if you do try to use this reasoning it falls apart when Luke is off cremating his father and he sees Yoda, Obi-Wan and his father greeting him from beyond the grave. They would be able to sense if he turned to the Dark Side or not.

Well, clearly Anakin was never truly redeemed, which is why he becomes Hayden whatshisname in the newer edits. As for Obi-Wan and Yoda, they were clearly idiots if the prequels are to be believed, so them being oblivious to Luke's obvious evilness is no surprise. I mean, seriously, Yoda predicted this and then spent the next decade completely ignoring it. And Obi-Wan was basically right beside him the entire way, until he basically drew a cartoon mustache on his face and twirled it.

In fact, they were kind of BFFs with Darth Sidious. So I'm going to take a line from "A Lost Hope" here....

"I'm announcing that you're all..."
*raises hood*
"...morons."

They really are.

Also, this is clearly confirmation of the theory and not just my brain's last gasp attempt at a joke before it shuts down for the night.

 

[Thaluikhain]

No no no.

When he looks at his hand, it's when he finally realised that organic lifeforms simply were inherently prone to corruption, and that he has to kill the Emperor and go off and form an army of robots to cleanse the galaxy.

Obviously.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Yah... no. To make this work, you need to twist the original three movies like you're trying to wring water out of them and retcon pretty much the entirety of Return of the Jedi. Then you have to believe that the managers at Disney and JJ Abrams are both stone dead retarded. Not just retarded - So mentally deficient it's amazing they have enough neurons to rub together to keep breathing.

Even as a 'fun' reinterpretation, it falls flat by being stupid and decidedly not fun. I'd rather they run with the Futurama 'Luke is his own grandfather' idea they came up with in the other thread then this.

 

[God'sFist]

Well the theory is half right in a sense inbefore the EU was dropped from the cannon. In the Hand of Thrawn books it is revealed

Spoiler

when Luke went to learn from caboath and turn him to the light side, He ended up touching the dark side and it colored his vision afterwards it even led to some his students going to the dark side

But with that no longer cannon this theory is completely bogus for the reasons stated above.

 

[happyninja42]

This "theory" relies on proclaiming the simpler solutions don't make sense when they do, something is out of place when it isn't, etc.

Throw in something about how fire can't melt whatever the Death Star is made of and you have a Star Wars-themed conspiracy theory.

I should be in bed right now, so I'll just say the cave scene is brilliant without any alternative interpretation and plays into Luke's final battle with Vader perfectly without any alternate explanation, either. These pieces do not need anything extra to make them fit.

Hell, even if you do try to use this reasoning it falls apart when Luke is off cremating his father and he sees Yoda, Obi-Wan and his father greeting him from beyond the grave. They would be able to sense if he turned to the Dark Side or not.

Well, clearly Anakin was never truly redeemed, which is why he becomes Hayden whatshisname in the newer edits. As for Obi-Wan and Yoda, they were clearly idiots if the prequels are to be believed, so them being oblivious to Luke's obvious evilness is no surprise. I mean, seriously, Yoda predicted this and then spent the next decade completely ignoring it. And Obi-Wan was basically right beside him the entire way, until he basically drew a cartoon mustache on his face and twirled it.

In fact, they were kind of BFFs with Darth Sidious. So I'm going to take a line from "A Lost Hope" here....

"I'm announcing that you're all..."
*raises hood*
"...morons."

They really are.

Also, this is clearly confirmation of the theory and not just my brain's last gasp attempt at a joke before it shuts down for the night.

To be fair, the terrible writing of the prequels basically forced the Jedi to be idiots, to explain why they couldn't see anything coming. Since the end of the prequel stories was already determined, they had to shoehorn in whatever story elements they could to make it end with how things began in New Hope. It was done poorly, no doubt. I personally don't think that the Jedi are as dumb as they are portrayed in the movies. If they really were an intergalactic organization, tapped into the wisdom of the universe, they would have at least some better insight into things. I chalk up their institutionalized stupidity to really, REALLY bad writing.

OT: No, Luke is not evil. This is JJ Abrams doing what he does best, which is to stir up nerd debates to generate hype for his movies. I mean just look at this site alone. There have been at least 4 (probably more but i've only noticed 4) different threads about this exact same subject of "OMGURD LUKE IS EBUL!! WE NOZ SEES HIS FACE SO HE MUST BE EBULZ!!" It's keeping people talking about the trailers and the movie, keeping the buzz fresh. That's all it is people. He's not evil, he's old, he's a freaking old geezer that is going to take on the Wise Mentor role in this movie for the two new Jedi. He's going to likely show up in a badass way at just the right time to kick the shit out of the Empire, walk in like a boss, lower his hood to a dramatic closeup and a sweeping musical score. He'll say something cool and cryptic to them, and then lead them back to his lair to teach them about the Force. Then he will likely die to save a bunch of people, thus having passed the Jedi torch to the two new young ones for the new franchise.

 

[sky pies]

Well the theory is half right in a sense inbefore the EU was dropped from the cannon. In the Hand of Thrawn books it is revealed

Spoiler

when Luke went to learn from caboath and turn him to the light side, He ended up touching the dark side and it colored his vision afterwards it even led to some his students going to the dark side

But with that no longer cannon this theory is completely bogus for the reasons stated above.

Wow, interesting... The value of reading those books... I'm always annoyed that I had all of those books at my finger tips after my oldest brother moved out of the house and never read one of them.

 

[God'sFist]

Well the theory is half right in a sense inbefore the EU was dropped from the cannon. In the Hand of Thrawn books it is revealed

Spoiler

when Luke went to learn from caboath and turn him to the light side, He ended up touching the dark side and it colored his vision afterwards it even led to some his students going to the dark side

But with that no longer cannon this theory is completely bogus for the reasons stated above.

Wow, interesting... The value of reading those books... I'm always annoyed that I had all of those books at my finger tips after my oldest brother moved out of the house and never read one of them.

yeah it's really a shame I'm currently reading through the last book and loveing it so much. The galactic politics, Luke comeing to terms with the force and confronting past fears, its great. You should go to a library or find someplace to get your hands on them the guy who writes them is fantastic.

captcha: role model

damn right captcha damn right

 

[Something Amyss]

To be fair, the terrible writing of the prequels basically forced the Jedi to be idiots, to explain why they couldn't see anything coming. Since the end of the prequel stories was already determined, they had to shoehorn in whatever story elements they could to make it end with how things began in New Hope. It was done poorly, no doubt. I personally don't think that the Jedi are as dumb as they are portrayed in the movies. If they really were an intergalactic organization, tapped into the wisdom of the universe, they would have at least some better insight into things. I chalk up their institutionalized stupidity to really, REALLY bad writing.

Well, yes, but it doesn't matter too much. Wise Yoda and Old Ben are canonically morons. Yes, it comes down to bad writing (and Lucas essentially wrote himself into a corner by bringing all these characters so close together), but they're still morons.

Anyway, I'm just having fun with it. Most theories like this are crap, and when I saw MA bring up the father, son and holy ghost, it just clicked in my head to run with it.

OT: No, Luke is not evil. This is JJ Abrams doing what he does best, which is to stir up nerd debates to generate hype for his movies. I mean just look at this site alone.

In fairness, essentially wasting an iconic and beloved character is what JJ does best, too. Just look at his Star Wars fanfilm, Into Darkness.

...no, I will not stop calling it a Star Wars fan film.

Also, in fairness, I think part of why these theories are popping up is that we don't have anything particularly negative to talk about. Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down. There's a level of relief simply coming from the fact that this movie doesn't look like a steaming pile of crap.

Also, assuming Luke dies (and I kind of think he does), I really hope it involves some variant of the Obi-Wan "strike me down" line. Full circle and stuff.