Poll: Do you agree with the Black Ops Swastika Ban?

shootthebandit

New member
May 20, 2009
3,867
0
0
Wow there's a lot of comments on this. Its just someone thinking "hey wouldn't it be cool if my emblem was a swastika" as far as emblems go its a fairly memorable one. If you have that as your emblem you probably don't represent the nazi regime. In the same way if your emblem is a guy shooting a duck or raping a moose it doesn't mean you shoot ducks or rape mooses (dunno correct plural)
Also is this a ban on PSN too, I've not seen many swastikas on PSN, PSN tends to have a more mature audience
 

Piflik

New member
Feb 25, 2010
255
0
0
I agree 100%...also with the reason they gave for baning it...

The thing is, the swastikas around the lvls and on enemy zombie-soldier are just swastikas...only symbols...but if you yourself choose to use a swastika as your own emblem, you affiliate yourself with Nazi Germany...at least it looks like that for fellow players and there is no way to explain otherwise...
 

Tdc2182

New member
May 21, 2009
3,623
0
0
Iwata said:
It is by no means as simple as you are putting it. If you're banning players because of a symbol, then what makes that symbol inapropriate, but others that are equally offensive are not?

If we're talking about the symbol of a genocidal maniac, well then, as I said, we also need to ban the hammer and sickle. Or is anyone here going to dispute the fact that the Soviet Empire did its fair share of genocide, without suffering the ultimate justice of the Nazi regime?

If we're not going to stand such things, then we can't make exceptions. Hell, the flag of the Vatican should go next, and after that, the Crescent Moon. And we'll just keep going.

Having a swastika as your symbol makes enough of a statement that you're a douchebag. That alone should be enough.
Yet again, The soviet Sickle and Hammer was not in any way representative of Russias actions like the Swastika was a symbol of the Nazis. No one associates the Russian sickle and Hammer with the Crimes Stalin committed.

The Swastika represents the death of 2/3s of an entire nation, and your response to them having the chance to ban the people flaunting it is basically "Kids will be kids".

And as for the Religious thing

This guy put it best.
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n

And don't try arguing that "oh if the christians did bad stuff their symbols should be banned too", very few people associate the cross with murder, they associate it with the religion.
This should be all you need.
 

Tdc2182

New member
May 21, 2009
3,623
0
0
Yagharek said:
Tdc2182 said:
SNIP

This is where I think people tend to over think it. The argument is often "Well this object is evil, but if we get rid of it then we have to get rid of everything else."

Do we really? We can't just all decide that something is frowned upon and considered evil, but we all tell ourselves to deal with it?
I don't think that we can just all decide something is evil, as easily as you make out. Oh sure, I don't think there'd be an objection to the swastika falling into this "evil" category. However, as you pointed out with the hammer and sickle, it's not as easy as that for most things. Certainly, I think there are people who would find it offensive. How many of them do there need to be before it is evil? Should that even be discussed considering the millions of innocents that died under Stalin? Sure, he isn't the only person associated with that symbol, but he still is, and in a major way.

I suppose that what it comes down to is that I don't think censoring something is a good way of dealing with it.
I'll admit to saying that is a fair enough excuse, but that doesn't change the fact that you are saying you are fine with people flaunting Swastikas.
 

AKmontalvo

New member
Nov 19, 2009
85
0
0
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
Except for the hammer and sickle wasnt exclusive to Stalin or the USSR the way the swastika was to the Nazis so there is an if/and/but. Its the symbol of the labor party (the proletariat) , focused on by Karl Marx's design of communism which had nothing to do with stalin or the Soviets when it was created (they didnt even exist at that time).
 

Piflik

New member
Feb 25, 2010
255
0
0
Also...to all here screaming 'FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!!'...your freedom ends where you start curtailing the freedom of others...you can't go to somebody, call him an asshole and then hide behind Freedom of Speech...it is still an offense...
 

Yagharek

New member
Jun 9, 2010
189
0
0
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
Yagharek said:
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
SNIP

It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n
So racial stereotypes are fine now?
Jesus Christ if you think assuming that people associating the swastika with the nazi genocide is a racial stereotype either you A. need to go outside and interact with functioning human beings or B. are a pretty good troll.
No, my point there was that your line did not include them, which simply adds to my argument that such things are arbitrary and not a good way to go. I should have made that clearer.
 

Rubashov

New member
Jun 23, 2010
174
0
0
AKmontalvo said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
Except for the hammer and sickle wasnt exclusive to Stalin or the USSR the way the swastika was to the Nazis so there is an if/and/but. Its the symbol of the labor party (the proletariat) , focused on by Karl Marx's design of communism which had nothing to do with stalin or the Soviets when it was created (they didnt even exist at that time).
That's not really a fair objection. The swastika was a Hindu symbol when it was originally designed, and the Nazis (to echo your comments about the hammer and sickle and Stalin) did not even exist at that time. So the hammer and sickle is tied to the Stalinist era of the Soviet Union to roughly the same degree as the swastika is tied to Nazi Germany.
 

Jroo wuz heer

New member
Apr 1, 2010
351
0
0
Greyfox105 said:
Personally, I'd rather they banned vulgar emblems from Black Ops.
But I don't mind about the Swastika being banned. I neither agree, nor disagree.
I just want people with vile emblems to get the hammer as well >.>
what were they thinking making a pickle, circles and teardrops possible symbols?

ot: yeah umm
nazis are bad
 

astrav1

New member
Jul 6, 2009
986
0
0
Tdc2182 said:
astrav1 said:
Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
No, that is completely overthinking it.

The question is this; Are you fine with the Nazi Swastika being in the game or do you want it taken out?

There is no thin line. It is a purely black and white decision.

I'm sorry, but racism should not be allowed in any form whatsoever. You are the ones that sit back and let people promote hate. If you're not against it, then you are with it.
Says the man with the avatar of a baby smoking. Don't you know that kid could die from it? Also I will say it: You need to grow tougher skin.
Why should I grow tougher skin? Who's gonna tell the assholes like you that they are being assholes.

I'll paraphrase something for you.

"All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."

Try taking that to heart.

*Like I said, my kid is old enough to make his own decisions.
So you are calling me an asshole because I believe things shouldn't be censored?
 

inarvan

New member
Jul 9, 2010
9
0
0
I don't like bans, and I don't like this one, but MS is well within their rights to ban whatever they want on Live. And they're kind of in a bad position when it comes to this. They would be crucified in the media if they just let this stuff slide.
 
Jun 13, 2009
2,100
0
0
Yes I do, their reasoning is sound. As they said in the interview, they are not against people who want to bring the symbol back to its pre-nazi connotations.

Sadly, this is Xbox Live after all, for every well meaning person using it as a way of furthering their belief that it can be salvaged, there are 6 using it solely to insult people, cause a brief, sick shock or just be a general dick thinking it's cool to associate with Nazis. These people need to be discouraged, an instant ban from their xbox seems like as good a way to go about this as any other.
 

Hairetos

New member
Jul 5, 2010
247
0
0
AKmontalvo said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
Except for the hammer and sickle wasnt exclusive to Stalin or the USSR the way the swastika was to the Nazis so there is an if/and/but. Its the symbol of the labor party (the proletariat) , focused on by Karl Marx's design of communism which had nothing to do with stalin or the Soviets when it was created (they didnt even exist at that time).
Except for the swastika wasn't exclusive to Hitler or Nazi Germany. It originated as a sacred symbol to the Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist religions, amongst many others.

Cwutididthar?
 

badgersprite

[--SYSTEM ERROR--]
Sep 22, 2009
3,820
0
0
My problem is just that infringing on free speech in any form only pisses people off and makes them disagree with this even more. I'm as anti-Nazi as a person can get, and you're never going to see me anywhere near a swastika, but reading about censorship and banning in any form just gets under my skin, gets me mad, and, in a way, makes me want to protest this by doing the opposite of what they want me to do.

Banning something or censoring it actually makes it look more appealing, too. It's motivating more people to adopt it, if not in Black Ops, then in other theatres. Considering that the Nazis were arguably the single most oppressive, censorship-heavy regime in history, the last thing you want to do is turn the swastika into a symbol of people who want their right to express themselves.
 

Tdc2182

New member
May 21, 2009
3,623
0
0
astrav1 said:
Tdc2182 said:
astrav1 said:
Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
No, that is completely overthinking it.

The question is this; Are you fine with the Nazi Swastika being in the game or do you want it taken out?

There is no thin line. It is a purely black and white decision.

I'm sorry, but racism should not be allowed in any form whatsoever. You are the ones that sit back and let people promote hate. If you're not against it, then you are with it.
Says the man with the avatar of a baby smoking. Don't you know that kid could die from it? Also I will say it: You need to grow tougher skin.
Why should I grow tougher skin? Who's gonna tell the assholes like you that they are being assholes.

I'll paraphrase something for you.

"All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."

Try taking that to heart.

*Like I said, my kid is old enough to make his own decisions.
So you are calling me an asshole because I believe things shouldn't be censored?
No, I'm saying you are an asshole for saying that the Swastika should be allowed to be flaunted in a video game.

Seriously, get off your high horse and try actually thinking about the topic at hand. You see the word "Censorship", and you immediately shoot it down without thinking "Oh, maybe censoring a Swastika might not be a bad thing after all"

Edit: Also, you clearly and deliberately tried to troll me. I don't understand how you couls possibly think that you aren't being an asshole?
 

Iwata

New member
Feb 25, 2010
3,333
0
0
Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
It is by no means as simple as you are putting it. If you're banning players because of a symbol, then what makes that symbol inapropriate, but others that are equally offensive are not?

If we're talking about the symbol of a genocidal maniac, well then, as I said, we also need to ban the hammer and sickle. Or is anyone here going to dispute the fact that the Soviet Empire did its fair share of genocide, without suffering the ultimate justice of the Nazi regime?

If we're not going to stand such things, then we can't make exceptions. Hell, the flag of the Vatican should go next, and after that, the Crescent Moon. And we'll just keep going.

Having a swastika as your symbol makes enough of a statement that you're a douchebag. That alone should be enough.
Yet again, The soviet Sickle and Hammer was not in any way representative of Russias actions like the Swastika was a symbol of the Nazis. No one associates the Russian sickle and Hammer with the Crimes Stalin committed.

The Swastika represents the death of 2/3s of an entire nation, and your response to them having the chance to ban the people flaunting it is basically "Kids will be kids".

And as for the Religious thing

This guy put it best.
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n

And don't try arguing that "oh if the christians did bad stuff their symbols should be banned too", very few people associate the cross with murder, they associate it with the religion.
This should be all you need.
Well, I guess it is indeed a matter of perspective, because I DO associate the hammer and the sickle with a twisted ideology responsible for the deaths of millions.

The fact that it's generally not regarded as such, in my view, means something is wrong with society as a whole.
 

Tdc2182

New member
May 21, 2009
3,623
0
0
Hairetos said:
AKmontalvo said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
Except for the hammer and sickle wasnt exclusive to Stalin or the USSR the way the swastika was to the Nazis so there is an if/and/but. Its the symbol of the labor party (the proletariat) , focused on by Karl Marx's design of communism which had nothing to do with stalin or the Soviets when it was created (they didnt even exist at that time).
Except for the swastika wasn't exclusive to Hitler or Nazi Germany. It originated as a sacred symbol to the Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist religions, amongst many others.

Cwutididthar?
First of all, The Nazi Swastika was exclusive to the Nazis. The Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist religions symbol only shares a similar look, not to mention that some of them are actually tilted differently.

I don't even know why I am telling people that the Nazi Swastika was mutually exclusive to Nazi Germany. Is it really that hard to make the connection on your own?
 

Hairetos

New member
Jul 5, 2010
247
0
0
Tdc2182 said:
astrav1 said:
Tdc2182 said:
astrav1 said:
Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
No, that is completely overthinking it.

The question is this; Are you fine with the Nazi Swastika being in the game or do you want it taken out?

There is no thin line. It is a purely black and white decision.

I'm sorry, but racism should not be allowed in any form whatsoever. You are the ones that sit back and let people promote hate. If you're not against it, then you are with it.
Says the man with the avatar of a baby smoking. Don't you know that kid could die from it? Also I will say it: You need to grow tougher skin.
Why should I grow tougher skin? Who's gonna tell the assholes like you that they are being assholes.

I'll paraphrase something for you.

"All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."

Try taking that to heart.

*Like I said, my kid is old enough to make his own decisions.
So you are calling me an asshole because I believe things shouldn't be censored?
No, I'm saying you are an asshole for saying that the Swastika should be allowed to be flaunted in a video game.

Seriously, get off your high horse and try actually thinking about the topic at hand. You see the word "Censorship", and you immediately shoot it down without thinking "Oh, maybe censoring a Swastika might not be a bad thing after all"

Edit: Also, you clearly and deliberately tried to troll me. I don't understand how you couls possibly think that you aren't being an asshole?
You're on the same high horse, claiming that your moral compass is better and that it's undeniably wrong to allow someone freedom of expression.

Honestly, nobody has the right to draw lines of offensiveness, since it's ENTIRELY subjective.
 

JackRyan64

New member
May 22, 2010
295
0
0
For everyone saying that it's a "multicultural symbol"... no. It's not. Not anymore, at least. The Nazis made the swastika forever a symbol for the most evil dictatorship in history. Anyone who sees a swastika and claims their first thought is something other than "Nazis", is a liar.

I would like to know how the emblem system works. Is it like Halo where you make your symbol out of different combination of colors and shapes? If so, then why is it in the game in the first place?
 

AKmontalvo

New member
Nov 19, 2009
85
0
0
Rubashov said:
AKmontalvo said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
Except for the hammer and sickle wasnt exclusive to Stalin or the USSR the way the swastika was to the Nazis so there is an if/and/but. Its the symbol of the labor party (the proletariat) , focused on by Karl Marx's design of communism which had nothing to do with stalin or the Soviets when it was created (they didnt even exist at that time).
That's not really a fair objection. The swastika was a Hindu symbol when it was originally designed, and the Nazis (to echo your comments about the hammer and sickle and Stalin) did not even exist at that time. So the hammer and sickle is tied to the Stalinist era of the Soviet Union to roughly the same degree as the swastika is tied to Nazi Germany.
Its absolutly fair, as far as symbology is concerned the two images are seperate each having distinguishing featers that differentiate the two (very similar but still seperate images).

The French flag is similar the the Netherlands flag but the two do not represent the same thing.