Poll: Do you agree with the Black Ops Swastika Ban?

Ascarus

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Yagharek said:
Ascarus said:
Arkhangelsk said:
zfactor said:
No, it's called free speech, bitches.
While that is arguable, Microsoft owns XBL and are thus those who make the rules on it. I don't think free speech can/should be implemented when we're talking things that are privately owned.
end of story. your freedoms are not being impacted here. you agree to terms and conditions set forth by the owner of the product.

deal with that or quit.
Our freedoms aren't being impacted upon true. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to point out to the developers that what they are doing shows a huge double standard, and is considerably more offensive than the people using the symbol were being? After all, they are essentially saying that it deserves censored but no other symbol. That's not good. If no one pointed out such things, why would they improve?
i don't necessarily disagree, but it's their standard, double or not. it's no different here when a moderator lays the ban hammer down on someone for what may be a minor infraction in your eyes, but that same moderator lets something slide that you may find really offensive.

you have to deal with the rules you agreed with. and while pointing them out may be socially conscious, it's likely to have a negligible effect on X-Box Live policies as they are going to do what they feel is in their best public image interest.
 

Yagharek

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Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
No, that is completely overthinking it.

The question is this; Are you fine with the Nazi Swastika being in the game or do you want it taken out?

There is no thin line. It is a purely black and white decision.

I'm sorry, but racism should not be allowed in any form whatsoever. You are the ones that sit back and let people promote hate. If you're not against it, then you are with it.
Some similar questions.

Are you fine with the hammer and sickle being in the game or do you want it taken out? It has an association with stalin, a dictator who caused millions of deaths, of innocent people.

Are you fine with the christian cross being in the game or do you want it taken out? Many people dislike the views that the faith promotes, particularly in its more extreme branches, and the church hardly has a spotless record.

It is absolutely not a black and white decision. There are a huge number of potentially offensive symbols. Do you not think that saying "Well, Hitler was bad enough that we'll remove the Swastika, but we'll leave the hammer and sickle because we don't mind the association with Stalin" is wrong?

How widely associated with a bad thing does something have to be before it is banned, even if it is assocaited with a good thing in many other cases.

I expect a lot of people dislike fundamentalism, should we ban any religious symbols?
 
Apr 16, 2009
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Yagharek said:
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
Firehound said:
It has been 65 years, 6 months and 15 days since the official surrender of the German army to the allies was ratified in what was left of Berlin. I am sick and tired of hearing about swastikas being banned from a FPS, RTS, or strategy game involving Germany. The only thing this does is encourage people to don the symbol. Let it burn out once and for all. Who rightly cares? They are not banning the millions of penis's I have seen on killcards, nor the breasts or maybe it's the arse. It's rather dull, and I've bored of it.
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
ATTENTION ALL OUTRAGED READERS. TREYARCH DOES NOT ALLOW INAPPROPRIATE EMBLEMS OF ANY SORT. YOUR 'HILARIOUS' IMAGE OF A HORSE FUCKING A GORILLA WILL GIVE YOU A BAN FROM THE EMBLEM EDITOR FOR A TIME. PLEASE STOP ASKING WHY THEY ARE ALLOWED, THEY ARE NOT. THANK YOU AND RESUME YOUR ARGUING.
This is not a good answer...

You say they do not allow "inappropriate emblems of any sort". Now tell me, what counts as inappropriate. If I complain about a christian cross, will all who use it be banned? The star of david? The flags of a host of nations?

If one symbol is ban worthy, why not a multitude of others?

It is incredibly difficult to draw a line, and if they wanted to make their best attempt at doing so they should have done it pre-emptively by providing a set list of emblems.
It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n

And don't try arguing that "oh if the christians did bad stuff their symbols should be banned too", very few people associate the cross with murder, they associate it with the religion.
 

Squarez

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Just_A_Glitch said:
I just feel bad for any Hindus or Buddhists who try to play the game and make his symbol a Manji.
I doubt there would be a many Buddhists playing Blops in the first place. But either way, I couldn't imagine anyone putting their emblem as a Swastika and then wondering why he was being banned for offensive content.

"WHAT?! WHAT THE FUCK IS SO OFFENSIVE ABOUT A SWASTICA!? I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO THINK WHAT THE PROBLEM COULD BE!"
 

Kadoodle

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Nov 2, 2010
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wrong. A Swaztica is a nazi symbol. Banning it is for the sake of preventing anti-semites and neo-nazi's from using it to dick up COD.

Would you allow a KKK symbol on COD? I think not.
 

Kenko

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Jul 25, 2010
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Swastika's yes. But swastiaks are angled a bit. If its not angled, its not a swastika. Alot of people used that symbol during the time. Hitler just hijacked it and bent it a little bit.
 

Kadoodle

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Well if treyarch doesn't want people using their freedom of speech for hatred and representation of one of the most evil groups in all of history, good for them.
 

Kenko

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Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
Yagharek said:
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
Firehound said:
It has been 65 years, 6 months and 15 days since the official surrender of the German army to the allies was ratified in what was left of Berlin. I am sick and tired of hearing about swastikas being banned from a FPS, RTS, or strategy game involving Germany. The only thing this does is encourage people to don the symbol. Let it burn out once and for all. Who rightly cares? They are not banning the millions of penis's I have seen on killcards, nor the breasts or maybe it's the arse. It's rather dull, and I've bored of it.
Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
ATTENTION ALL OUTRAGED READERS. TREYARCH DOES NOT ALLOW INAPPROPRIATE EMBLEMS OF ANY SORT. YOUR 'HILARIOUS' IMAGE OF A HORSE FUCKING A GORILLA WILL GIVE YOU A BAN FROM THE EMBLEM EDITOR FOR A TIME. PLEASE STOP ASKING WHY THEY ARE ALLOWED, THEY ARE NOT. THANK YOU AND RESUME YOUR ARGUING.
This is not a good answer...

You say they do not allow "inappropriate emblems of any sort". Now tell me, what counts as inappropriate. If I complain about a christian cross, will all who use it be banned? The star of david? The flags of a host of nations?

If one symbol is ban worthy, why not a multitude of others?

It is incredibly difficult to draw a line, and if they wanted to make their best attempt at doing so they should have done it pre-emptively by providing a set list of emblems.
It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n

And don't try arguing that "oh if the christians did bad stuff their symbols should be banned too", very few people associate the cross with murder, they associate it with the religion.
That said religion ofcourse has commited more atrocities and murders throughout the ages beyond what little the nazis did(in comparison). I find any religious symbol offensive. As they all represent what is worst with humanity. Enslavement of body and mind, genocide, ignorance, arrogance, stupidity and immorality.
 

Tdc2182

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May 21, 2009
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Yagharek said:
Some similar questions.

Are you fine with the hammer and sickle being in the game or do you want it taken out? It has an association with stalin, a dictator who caused millions of deaths, of innocent people.
I originally had a post for this particular part, but I accidentally deleted it.

The Hammer and Sickle was not spawned from the holocaust in Russia and did not represent the the same ideals associated with the death of the Gypsies like how the Swastika was associated with the death of the Jews.

Two extremely different sides. The Swastika was a direct representation of the Changes Nazism brought about. And although the Swastika didn't originally represent the atrocities as it had before, it took on a bad representation.
Are you fine with the christian cross being in the game or do you want it taken out? Many people dislike the views that the faith promotes, particularly in its more extreme branches, and the church hardly has a spotless record.
Like I said previously, the Cross does not represent anything related to hate. I'm not going to argue with you the crimes and misread intentions (and properly read intentions of the bible, unfortunately) that lead to the deaths of everyone who was ousted and killed by the Christian nation, but I think its safe to say that the absolute core of Christianity does not inspire hate.

It may have been hidden behind over the centuries, but nowhere near the same velocity as of the Swastika.
It is absolutely not a black and white decision. There are a huge number of potentially offensive symbols. Do you not think that saying "Well, Hitler was bad enough that we'll remove the Swastika, but we'll leave the hammer and sickle because we don't mind the association with Stalin" is wrong?

How widely associated with a bad thing does something have to be before it is banned, even if it is assocaited with a good thing in many other cases.

I expect a lot of people dislike fundamentalism, should we ban any religious symbols?
This is where I think people tend to over think it. The argument is often "Well this object is evil, but if we get rid of it then we have to get rid of everything else."

Do we really? We can't just all decide that something is frowned upon and considered evil, but we all tell ourselves to deal with it?

*Side note: Sorry if this post is somewhat incoherent, but I have a twitch in my eye that is extremely distracting which I can't stop.
 

Tdc2182

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May 21, 2009
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Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n

And don't try arguing that "oh if the christians did bad stuff their symbols should be banned too", very few people associate the cross with murder, they associate it with the religion.
A very simple and effective way to put it.
 

w-Jinksy

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May 30, 2009
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meh i could'nt care less just find it funny i can have a hammer and sickle, as we all know stalin did a stellar job of killing a lot of people.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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It's an offensive symbol. Yes there are other's they haven't banned but that doesn't mean this shouldn't be.
It is incredible offensive for many cultures and seriously, how many people are actually using it for a reason other than to challenge society. Maybe 1%.
To think that people should be allowed to parade around with a swatsika on their guns is extremely disrespectful. I implore the people who think this is okay to try and see this from the perspective of a person who would be offended by the image.
 

CCountZero

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pretentiousname01 said:
That is not what Freedom of speech had in mind.
Nobody will ever know that for sure.

I agree that it seems unlikely, but you can't say that as a certainty.

It should also be noted that making exceptions to such a fundemental and important civil right as the Freedom of Speech is a step that should never be taken lightly, as every one you make opens up further possibilities for circumventing it.

I can see why the Swastika would be considered offensive by some, but that's an opinion and feeling based solely on ignorance, and instead of banning it's use, we should educate this ignorance into oblivion.

Personally, I wouldn't use it, because I don't want to risk causing a fuss.

However, we shouldn't be banning a mark with a history dating to long before the first century, just because a psycho decided upon using it as a symbol of his agenda.
 

Jedoro

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Jun 28, 2009
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Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
Jedoro said:
Nope. Guy even wants to go on record about how he knows it's not a Nazi-exclusive symbol and still ban it anyways?

I'd prefer if mods spent their time tracking down the people with shitty player reviews and banned them, instead of basing it on one damn symbol.
Hey, did you know me and my friends have a religious symbol that looks surprisingly similar to a gorilla jacking off a horse? Those fucking jerks at Treyarch how dare they disallow my symbol that is not bestiality-exclusive.
This would be even slightly relevant if there was any proof of such religion. People with the Swastika can at least make a case, whereas this example is just stupid.
 

Iwata

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Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
No, that is completely overthinking it.

The question is this; Are you fine with the Nazi Swastika being in the game or do you want it taken out?

There is no thin line. It is a purely black and white decision.

I'm sorry, but racism should not be allowed in any form whatsoever. You are the ones that sit back and let people promote hate. If you're not against it, then you are with it.
It is by no means as simple as you are putting it. If you're banning players because of a symbol, then what makes that symbol inapropriate, but others that are equally offensive are not?

If we're talking about the symbol of a genocidal maniac, well then, as I said, we also need to ban the hammer and sickle. Or is anyone here going to dispute the fact that the Soviet Empire did its fair share of genocide, without suffering the ultimate justice of the Nazi regime?

If we're not going to stand such things, then we can't make exceptions. Hell, the flag of the Vatican should go next, and after that, the Crescent Moon. And we'll just keep going.

Having a swastika as your symbol makes enough of a statement that you're a douchebag. That alone should be enough.
 

Rubashov

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Jun 23, 2010
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I disagree with the decision to ban the swastika because I disagree with censorship. However, I uphold the idea that the rightful possessors of a platform - whoever those rightful possessors may be - ought to be free to censor the forms of expression displayed on that platform, despite my categorical disagreement with any decisions to exercise said freedom.
 

astrav1

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Tdc2182 said:
Iwata said:
If you ban the swastika, then you also have to ban the hammer and sickle, no if's, ands or buts. Double standards much?
No, that is completely overthinking it.

The question is this; Are you fine with the Nazi Swastika being in the game or do you want it taken out?

There is no thin line. It is a purely black and white decision.

I'm sorry, but racism should not be allowed in any form whatsoever. You are the ones that sit back and let people promote hate. If you're not against it, then you are with it.
Says the man with the avatar of a baby smoking. Don't you know that kid could die from it? Also I will say it: You need to grow tougher skin.
 

Yagharek

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Jun 9, 2010
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Wow they sure are generous with the usernames said:
SNIP

It's actually very simple to draw a line. Here I go:

Is the symbol sexually explicit y/n
Does the symbol conjure images of genocide and mass murder for the vast majority of our playerbase y/n
So racial stereotypes are fine now?

Tdc2182 said:
SNIP

This is where I think people tend to over think it. The argument is often "Well this object is evil, but if we get rid of it then we have to get rid of everything else."

Do we really? We can't just all decide that something is frowned upon and considered evil, but we all tell ourselves to deal with it?
I don't think that we can just all decide something is evil, as easily as you make out. Oh sure, I don't think there'd be an objection to the swastika falling into this "evil" category. However, as you pointed out with the hammer and sickle, it's not as easy as that for most things. Certainly, I think there are people who would find it offensive. How many of them do there need to be before it is evil? Should that even be discussed considering the millions of innocents that died under Stalin? Sure, he isn't the only person associated with that symbol, but he still is, and in a major way.

I suppose that what it comes down to is that I don't think censoring something is a good way of dealing with it.
 

astrav1

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Rubashov said:
I disagree with the decision to ban the swastika because I disagree with censorship. However, I uphold the idea that the rightful possessors of a platform - whoever those rightful possessors may be - ought to be free to censor the forms of expression displayed on that platform, despite my categorical disagreement with any decisions to exercise said freedom.
A well said argument sir. You bring up a fine point.