Poll: Doctor Who: Female and/or Non-White Master, Yay or Nay?

LittleWings

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thaluikhain said:
LittleWings said:
I never said it wasn't cannon. But tbh, those aren't really compelling arguments anyway- The Corsair was mentioned by two writers, in the Fouth Doctor's era by Douglas Adams (The guy known for throwing in lines for comedy over whether they felt right or not), and anyway IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong) that was in Shada, and I'm pretty sure the Cannon version of Shada was the recent Webseries/audio, with 8 and Romana. He's only refered to in comical ways. We haven't met any Time Lords that have changed Gender, not to mention we've seen countless Master/Doctor/Romana/Borusa etc regenerations who have not swapped gender.
Wait, what? When was the Corsair, or any Time Lord who changed gender, mentioned in Tom Baker's run?
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Corsair

Mentioned in passing, implicitly, in the novelisation of a non-broadcast episode.

Exactly.
 

happyninja42

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Keoul said:
As long as there isn't any sexual tension I'll be okay with it.
Jeez, they even did it in that Sherlock Holmes reboot, arch nemesis for centuries but now that they're a girl you just gotta bang em.

Why can't they just be evil?
Because it's television, and sexual drama/tension brings in the viewers xD

Simple as that.
 

Rowan93

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The word "Master" is gendered, and that on top of the character historically being male would make a female one just kind of weird.
 
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TheVampwizimp said:
That's where he is, if he even still lives, which he shouldn't as his body was decaying due to being unnaturally revived from permadeath. He shouldn't even be able to regenerate at this point.
As far as I remember, he might well actually be able to regenerate, he certainly still has at least one regeneration left when he dies in season 3 and I don't remember it being specifically stated that he wouldn't be able to regenerate in his degenerating body. Though I admit I haven't seen season 3 in a while.

Zontar said:
In principle I'm ok with the idea, in the context of the show however it just wouldn't work. Think about this for a second, as much as we all love the stories in the future on some far off world, what about the ones on Earth in the distant past? The writers would have a hell of a time making a fun, light-hearted story in a past setting without it being weighed down by the fact that society's values where very different back then. I like the light-hearted stories set in the past that could care less about giving some important message, and I wouldn't enjoy a series without that nearly as much as one with them, and given which show we're talking about here there would probably be a heavy handed message and a darker tone to every adventure they had in the past.

I guess my position is best described as supportive in message but unwilling to bear the cost. Kind of like the exact reason community got cancelled, only without the "me being a fan of community" part.
Well as someone else stated above, we've had black companions who've traveled to the past, didn't cause too many problems. To be honest I actually think that's the kinda ground the show likes to cover anyway though. For what is primarily a childrens' show, Doctor Who quite regularly covers death, including the deaths of children, homosexuality is an acknowledged occurrence as is sex itself and sexism. Sounds to me to be exactly within the show's remit at least acknowledge racial issues at some point even without a racially varied Doctor or Master. Also, I doubt there would be much of a reaction to speak of anyway. When Community was cancelled it was after Dan Harmon had been fighting with nbc for years already, on the other hand, Stephen Moffat writes two of the BBC's biggest shows, if not their two biggest shows outright and I highly doubt they'd go after him just for touching on racial issues, nor, I suspect, would the British press in any notable way.

LittleWings said:
Mentioned in passing, implicitly, in the novelisation of a non-broadcast episode.

Exactly.
Yes, but it was also mentioned in a fairly recent episode, the first Neil Gaiman wrote for the show if I remember correctly, a season or so ago.
 

weirdsoup

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The thing is, the character of The Doctor is male. You wouldn't have Richard III played by a woman, you wouldn't have Evita Peron played by a man.

TBH, the whole gender swap thing seems like so much drumming up of publicity.
 

LittleWings

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uro vii said:
LittleWings said:
Mentioned in passing, implicitly, in the novelisation of a non-broadcast episode.

Exactly.
Yes, but it was also mentioned in a fairly recent episode, the first Neil Gaiman wrote for the show if I remember correctly, a season or so ago.
And that one, throwaway mention by the 11th Doctor (The Doctor Lies... isn't that the River Song quote?), written by Neil Gaiman, not, you know, the head writer of the show, is the basis of all evidence that Time Lords can change gender. There is much more that says they can't.
 

Shiftygiant

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I'm okay with a Non-white Master, or a non-white Doctor. Whilst not okay with a female Doctor/Master as I personally identity both as male, I can see it happening with an in-universe explanation(Time lords can gender swap and all that), but given Moffat's writing skills, the Master would end up the Doctors fuck buddy or something.

Also, with a universe so rich in Time lords who want to fuck shit up, and given how Moffat has fucked up the Ninth/Tenth Doctors survivor complex with 'Planet really in pocket universe' shit, why can't Rani come back (Knowing full well Moffat has gone on record denying her return)?

Also, can we please get ride of this 'No parallel/alternate universe' stuff that RTD gave us. I know that the Tardis can't cross universes, but why can't we have a story set in a world where, say, Mosley achieved high office or Ivan the Terrible married Elizabeth I.
 
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LittleWings said:
And that one, throwaway mention by the 11th Doctor (The Doctor Lies... isn't that the River Song quote?), written by Neil Gaiman, not, you know, the head writer of the show, is the basis of all evidence that Time Lords can change gender. There is much more that says they can't.
The stories and scripts are run by Moffat a number of times before they start recording them, I doubt he allows anything to stay in them that he doesn't want stay cannon. In fact I suspect Moffat has a great deal of input in the other writers' stories, considering how often fairly major plot points occur in stories he didn't write. Also, there isn't that much internal consistency to the show if I'm honest, and though I would be curious to see what evidence there is against gender changing regeneration, I think it's wiser to believe the cannon is whatever it was most recently stated to be.
 

LittleWings

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uro vii said:
LittleWings said:
And that one, throwaway mention by the 11th Doctor (The Doctor Lies... isn't that the River Song quote?), written by Neil Gaiman, not, you know, the head writer of the show, is the basis of all evidence that Time Lords can change gender. There is much more that says they can't.
The stories and scripts are run by Moffat a number of times before they start recording them, I doubt he allows anything to stay in them that he doesn't want stay cannon. In fact I suspect Moffat has a great deal of input in the other writers' stories, considering how often fairly major plot points occur in stories he didn't write. Also, there isn't that much internal consistency to the show if I'm honest, and though I would be curious to see what evidence there is against gender changing regeneration, I think it's wiser to believe the cannon is whatever it was most recently stated to be.
Moffat's always been one to add in throwaway lines that make no sense but are funny (hence the heavy reliance on The Doctor Lies). In any case, my initial argument wasn't supposed to be about whether or not Time Lords becoming women is Cannon or not, but that it doesn't seem right to me, mainly for reasons stated by others here.
 
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LittleWings said:
Moffat's always been one to add in throwaway lines that make no sense but are funny (hence the heavy reliance on The Doctor Lies). In any case, my initial argument wasn't supposed to be about whether or not Time Lords becoming women is Cannon or not, but that it doesn't seem right to me, mainly for reasons stated by others here.
Fair enough, I suppose it comes down how you interpret the show. As far as my take goes, it doesn't feel at stylistic odds with the show, given it's been both fairly feminist and very wacky in the past and it doesn't violate any major lore that I know of or care for, so I'm cool with it.
 

BrotherRool

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LittleWings said:
In any case, it's the feeling, not whether it is cannon that counts for me.
Then when they make a female Doctor it will start 'feeling' canon to you :p
 

Colour Scientist

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weirdsoup said:
The thing is, the character of The Doctor is male. You wouldn't have Richard III played by a woman, you wouldn't have Evita Peron played by a man.

TBH, the whole gender swap thing seems like so much drumming up of publicity.
Those comparisons don't work because they're real individuals.

The Doctor is fictional, the Doctor is a fictional character that changes identity every few years and exists in a world that makes references to time lords being able to change gender. It's not the same as casting a white woman to play Chairman Mao.

It may never happen and the comments may well have been a joke but it's a pretty weak argument to just go "the Doctor should be a man because he's always been a man and we don't like change."

I mean, if they did cast a woman to play the Doctor, worst case scenario, people ***** and moan enough until they kill her off and have her regenerate into another dude so everyone can enjoy things being the same forever.
 

LittleWings

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BrotherRool said:
LittleWings said:
In any case, it's the feeling, not whether it is cannon that counts for me.
Then when they make a female Doctor it will start 'feeling' canon to you :p
It's not about feeling cannon, I admit, in Moffat's mind especially, it probably is cannon.


Thing is, there's lots that is cannon in Doctor Who that I don't like, often cause it just doesn't feel right, even if there's nothing really wrong with it.

Perfect example of this is John Hurt as the War Doctor. Is John Hurt an incredible actor and basically perfect for the role? Yes. Is the Character completely justified and was he incredibly well integrated into the universe? Yes. Do I think the fact he was retroactively shoehorned into the show is a bit annoying? Yes. Should it have been the Eighth Doctor? Yes.

It's not that I massively dispute the cannon (although disagree that it is clearly cannon that Time Lords can regenerate into opposite genders), but if someone made a pole pre-50th anniversary saying "Would you like to see John Hurt play an unknown incarnation of the Doctor because... It's cool?" I'd have said no. It doesn't feel right.
 

otakon17

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Sure, why the fuck not? If the actor/actress can play The Master right, race and sex doesn't matter a whit. Though the gender change would have to be handwaved I think.
 

Something Amyss

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Keoul said:
As long as there isn't any sexual tension I'll be okay with it.
IF we're talking about the Doctor and the Master, there should be sexual tension. If only because it was already there.

Even before the revival, the Master struck me as a lover scorned on occasion.

Colour Scientist said:
I think Moffat basically said or implied that he didn't want a female Doctor anytime soon but Moffat also thought that the fish fingers and custard and bow tie jokes were hilarious for over three years. Maybe Stephen Moffat should regenerate as a better executive producer or at least get a writing companion to help him sort his shit out.
Moffatt also didn't want Karen Gillan because she was "dumpy" and changed his mind primarily because she gave him a boner.

I'm pretty sure a female Doctor is out, but mostly because Moffatt's got issues. A female Master, however, gives him a chance to throw down some more of his usual approach to wimminz, so it's probably more plausible. Whether it will be good or not....

BrotherRool said:
I think there's a lot of writers who wouldn't screw it up. Russel T Davis would have been great at it (think of the whole Martha thing), RTD also has a much better history of writing women as people than Moffat and a much better history of making his random characters female, whereas Moffat almost always chooses guys when he needs an extra in his script.
Davies writing his characters as humans? That's a funny one. the bigger issue there is that Davies very likely would turn the Master into a woman scorned, since in RTD's version of Doctor Who literally everyone is in love with the Doctor (except Donna) and exist entirely to tell the Doctor how awesome or fearsome he is (except Donna, though to a lesser extent). Martha would have been a better character had she not spent the entire arc moping over how the Doctor didn't love her.

But, as someone else said....

thaluikhain said:
True, when RTD got it all wrong, it wouldn't have anything to do with gender or sexuality or race.
Moving on.

MeChaNiZ3D said:
Whatever the lore says. If regeneration is a blank slate, fine, the Doctor probably should have been a female and a black guy and a few other things by now. If there are some kind of continuity rules, which there could be, I'm not into it enough to know, then as long as it sticks to that, cast whomever you like.
The rules of regeneration are basically "whatever we want them to be," where "we" is whoever's writing at the time. We've had implied gender swaps during regeneration, including The Corsair, who BrotherRool mentioned 11 specifically said was a man and sometimes a woman. Further, we've got at least one case of a little white girl eventually regenerating into a black girl, so that seems to be kosher, too. More importantly, both the Corsair and the little girl were from the new series under Moffatt, so the rules applied on his watch.

....Just for the record, I'm writing this specifically to confirm, not to be adversarial. The more you know and all that.

Anyway, I'm sure that the rules could change in the future, but they've never particularly been hard and well-defined. What we've got now (and had in the past) would indicate it's possible.

TheVampwizimp said:
The only way the Master can come back is if the Doctor returns Gallifrey to our universe.
Never, ever, ever say "the only way."

Have you seen how many times they've brought back the Daleks and cybermen and, hell, Rose? They can undo the Master's final moments, they can introduce a previous version, they can even pull something completely out of their ass. In fact, I would wager on the last one, possibly combined with the first one.

Hell, think of all the times the Doctor has stopped being "The last of the Time Lords," even if briefly.
 

BrotherRool

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LittleWings said:
BrotherRool said:
LittleWings said:
In any case, it's the feeling, not whether it is cannon that counts for me.
Then when they make a female Doctor it will start 'feeling' canon to you :p
It's not about feeling cannon, I admit, in Moffat's mind especially, it probably is cannon.


Thing is, there's lots that is cannon in Doctor Who that I don't like, often cause it just doesn't feel right, even if there's nothing really wrong with it.

Perfect example of this is John Hurt as the War Doctor. Is John Hurt an incredible actor and basically perfect for the role? Yes. Is the Character completely justified and was he incredibly well integrated into the universe? Yes. Do I think the fact he was retroactively shoehorned into the show is a bit annoying? Yes. Should it have been the Eighth Doctor? Yes.

It's not that I massively dispute the cannon (although disagree that it is clearly cannon that Time Lords can regenerate into opposite genders), but if someone made a pole pre-50th anniversary saying "Would you like to see John Hurt play an unknown incarnation of the Doctor because... It's cool?" I'd have said no. It doesn't feel right.
But with Doctor Who you can make the argument that this part of canon is actively hurting people. Despite everything our society is horribly unequal, how many oscar winning films have been directed by a female? How many top companies are led by a women? How many MPs and Prime Ministers have been female?

And it's not about ability. We've done the research on this, there are small genetic differences on ability due to gender, but they're vastly outweighed by the affects of a socially equal society. In our countries the logical reasoning (maths) ability of women is weaker than men, but when they've done the same tests in places and tribes without a patriarchy there was no difference between the genders.

Role models and representation are the cause of the unequalness. Just writing a male name on a test paper will improve a female's chances of doing well in that test, because when they're pretending to be someone else, their subconscious isn't effected by the idea that society says they should do worse.

Doctor Who is the most watched drama in the UK by a significant margin and it's watched all over the world. It's hugely high profile and if it sets a trend people are going to ask questions about other shows. Moreover it's a series where the main protagonist can radically change year to year. No-ones ever categorically ruled out gender switching regenerations and there have been writers (including Russel T Davis) who clearly believe that gender switching is part of the canon.

Isn't it worth risking a little bit of uncomfortableness and weirdness? There's nothing to lose and the chance that we might gain a great deal.
 

Something Amyss

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Rowan93 said:
The word "Master" is gendered, and that on top of the character historically being male would make a female one just kind of weird.
The title may be, but it doesn't mean the Time Lord has to be.

Riff Moonraker said:
I personally think that after Capaldi's run, the next doctor needs to be...... A..... GINGER!!!!!
Okay, I'm fine with a black Doctor, a Female Doctor, etc. But I will NOT stand for a GINGER!

....I kid, of course.

weirdsoup said:
The thing is, the character of The Doctor is male. You wouldn't have Richard III played by a woman, you wouldn't have Evita Peron played by a man.
You would, however, have Othello played by non-black, non-venetians, despite being the "Moor of Venice." You would cast Jesus as white, you would cast white people in "Samurai" movies, black the Kingpin black, make Katniss white and gender swap John Watson.

And these are all more relevant because, like the Doctor, they are fictional characters. However, we have had white people notoriously playing Native Americans, Yul Brynner playing the King of Siam, etc. Historically, so I'm not sure that's a good argument, either.
 

LittleWings

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BrotherRool said:
Snip

Isn't it worth risking a little bit of uncomfortableness and weirdness? There's nothing to lose and the chance that we might gain a great deal.
Eh. IMO, it's Doctor Who. Despite what several, particularly older generation fans say, it's not high art. I like the Doctor as a man not because I don't like female protagonists but because in my mind it doesn't make sense that a male character can become a woman. It just doesn't fit in my mind. I honestly don't believe that making the Doctor female will make any difference to the gender inequality issues facing the world at the moment.

That's basically the issue I have. Skin colour is basically melanin, and it not only is acceptable, it makes sense in my head that it should change from regeneration to regeneration. Gender is different.

More than anything, though, I am potentially more worried that the current writers wont be able to handle a female Doctor in the right way. Moffat is incredibly hit and miss, and he especially has trouble writing women. If there was a series of Doctor Who where the Doctor was on holiday and River Song was left in charge of the TARDIS, I would stop watching. Not because she's a woman, but because she is the most annoying character ever created, and IMO she actually sets a horrific example as an "empowered woman".

It honestly makes more sense to cast a female James Bond to me than it does a female Doctor.
 

BrotherRool

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LittleWings said:
BrotherRool said:
Snip

Isn't it worth risking a little bit of uncomfortableness and weirdness? There's nothing to lose and the chance that we might gain a great deal.
Eh. IMO, it's Doctor Who. Despite what several, particularly older generation fans say, it's not high art. I like the Doctor as a man not because I don't like female protagonists but because in my mind it doesn't make sense that a male character can become a woman. It just doesn't fit in my mind. I honestly don't believe that making the Doctor female will make any difference to the gender inequality issues facing the world at the moment.

That's basically the issue I have. Skin colour is basically melanin, and it not only is acceptable, it makes sense in my head that it should change from regeneration to regeneration. Gender is different.

More than anything, though, I am potentially more worried that the current writers wont be able to handle a female Doctor in the right way. Moffat is incredibly hit and miss, and he especially has trouble writing women. If there was a series of Doctor Who where the Doctor was on holiday and River Song was left in charge of the TARDIS, I would stop watching. Not because she's a woman, but because she is the most annoying character ever created, and IMO she actually sets a horrific example as an "empowered woman".

It honestly makes more sense to cast a female James Bond to me than it does a female Doctor.
High art ain't any good at changing the world, but something honest and earnest that's loved by half of the entire county, that just might have a chance.

I'll admit Moffat would be a horrific writer for this, his women characters are the worst and he can barely write an episode that passes the bechdel test, never mind anything actually sophisticated. Luckily both plans co-incide with my 'don't let Moffat show run Doctor Who' plan.