Poll: Does Steam Need A Purging?

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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CaitSeith said:
gsilver said:
CaitSeith said:
Elijin said:
I can understand the sentiment, but when applied you get an issue of 'What goes and what stays? Who decides? What happens when products people want are deemed undesirable by this system?'
Consoles companies don't seem to have issues with that. Have you noticed the seal of approval on the games cover? That means someone already solved those questions.
There's a whole lot of bad games on consoles these days

Ride to Hell: Retribution and Aliens: Colonial Marines both passed the test.

And that's not even looking at the console's downloadable titles. For every Ori and the Blind Forest, there are dozens of less-than-stellar and many outright bad titles.
There is a big difference between "one to dozens of less-than-stellar" and "one to hundreds of zero-quality-control". As bad as Ride to Hell: Retribution, Aliens: Colonial Marines and Amy are, they don't hold the candle against any of the 100 worst games in Steam.
Yet I don't see Postmortem: One Must Die on consoles. If that seal of approval means games like that won't be there, then I'm quite happy to go without it. Heck, even if it's one of the worst games I've played, I'd much rather have Damned exist, even though I don't like it. And it doesn't exist on consoles. You know what does? Sniper: Ghost Warrior which is the game that I truly actually hate. Might be the only one in existence, too. That, I believe shouldn't have existed and yet not only it does, it's also multiplatform AND it managed to get sequels plural. It's a fact I can't help but think of an argument against the legitimacy of this "seal of approval".

So, if I'm not guaranteed "protection" from bad games and access to good games, I'd personally consider the approvals of this seal not that good. The poor animal doesn't really seem to be cut out for that job. Perhaps it'd be best if the poor creature was returned to wherever it came from originally - back to the wild, back to being employed in the US navy, or maybe it belonged to that Solomon guy, or whatever.
 

CaitSeith

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DoPo said:
Yet I don't see Postmortem: One Must Die on consoles.
You'll have to elaborate how seal of approval kept it away from consoles. Otherwise I'll just retort with another likewise arbitrary observation as I don't see Bloodborne on Steam either.
 

DoPo

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CaitSeith said:
DoPo said:
Yet I don't see Postmortem: One Must Die on consoles.
You'll have to elaborate how seal of approval kept it away from consoles.
Very small game, from a very small studio targetting a rather niche audience. Not enough resources to release it on consoles and/or since it's niche, it is rather unlikely that sales would generate a significant profit, or even break even, for that matter.

As far as I'm aware, releasing a game on consoles is an act that does require an investment. I'm not aware of the specifics, though but there've been mentions of developer costs associated with consoles [http://kotaku.com/5884842/wait-it-costs-40000-to-patch-a-console-game]. At the very least, I am fairly sure that the seal does not work for free to certify games.

Can you very definitely 100% prove that good games won't be kept at bay by the barrier of entry for consoles?

CaitSeith said:
Otherwise I'll just retort with another likewise arbitrary observation as I don't see Bloodborne on Steam either.
Bloodbourne is an exclusive game that is not on Steam, nor on PC, nor on XBox, nor anywhere else because of contractual obligations, as opposed to limited developer resources. Postmortem: One Must Die, by contrast, is not an exclusive. I very, very sincerely doubt it platform limitations, either, seeing as I expect a toaster to be able to play the game, furthermore the control scheme consists of directions + "use" key, thus should also be able to fit a controller.

If I wanted to cherry-pick examples of PC exclusives or "exclusives" in vain attempt to prove...not sure what, exactly, I could have pointed at multiple shooters or strategy games available on the platform. I did not do that because this would only have shown that games that not really suited for outside of PC are *gasp* available on only on PC. This isn't about "console vs PC" but about a "centrally controlled markerplace vs not". My example was right on point - a game that got greenlit [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=159578647] and put on the Steam market yet hasn't been through a centralised selection process due to the high barrier associated with it. Your example was of a game confined to a single marketplace yet not because it was somehow inherently tied to curation methods but because it was not allowed to be submitted to any other marketplace.

If you are going to bring this up, you may as say something like "The XBox shade of green is pleasing, thus a central control over the available games is objectively superior". It has about the same relevance to the subject matter as whether a PlayStation exclusive game isn't on PC. Both of these contain keywords related to the subject at hand but aren't really about that.
 

WeepingAngels

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Elijin said:
I can understand the sentiment, but when applied you get an issue of 'What goes and what stays? Who decides? What happens when products people want are deemed undesirable by this system?'
The same thing that happens on consoles when Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft don't want to put the game on their system. Steam is a platform, it is not the whole PC market.

I should also mention that the Wii had some great games but it's library is largely remembered as shovelware. Too much shovelware does harm the reputation of a platform.
 

Vigormortis

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CaitSeith said:
Consoles companies don't seem to have issues with that. Have you noticed the seal of approval on the games cover? That means someone already solved those questions.
DoPo said:
If I may? Unturned.

Unturned is a perfect example of why Steam needs to keep their open policy. When the game first released it appeared, at face value, to be yet another UnitZ asset flip. It had all the markings of being a cheap cash-in designed solely to maximize profits on a minuscule investment.

However, since its release, it has evolved into a fairly popular title. The developer has continued to update the game with new content and features. The community of fans has grown, and now features a fairly healthy modding and LP scene. The dev has even updated the game with an experimental VR mode allowing users to view, explore, modify, and build maps within the VR space.

Yet, had Valve instituted some sort of system to 'filter out' those games so many of you are deeming 'shitty', Unturned would never have made it onto Steam. Whomever would have been in charge of 'judging' whether the game was 'worthy' to go up for sale on Steam would have taken one look at it, seen its 'lack of content or quality', and simply denied its existence.

But that didn't happen. Valve didn't 'filter' out Unturned. And, as a result, here we are today. The game is popular, has an ever growing list of content and features, and has even made it into the top 15 of the most played games on steam, averaging over 24,000 concurrent players a day.

Now, you're all free to say, "Yeah, well, consoles don't seem to have a content problem! And they filter out bad games!" Yes, that's certainly true. However, they will also never have a case like Unturned. A case where a small, unassuming game that looked bad from the start went on to become one of the most popular games on the platform.

And that alone makes the 'sea of shit' bearable.

Gorrath said:
Plus, some games start out rough but get into better shape later on. Give me choice and you give me responsibility. I'd rather have both of those than a lack of either.
Exactly. Upon release, Terraria would never have made it through, say, Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo's 'quality filter'. Yet, as of today, it is one of the finest examples of an indie dev taking a rough start, adding content, fostering a community, and winding up with one of the most popular games on the platform.

When have any of the consoles had a similar story? Can that even be said of other DD platforms like Origin and Uplay?
 

DoPo

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Vigormortis said:
Now, you're all free to say, "Yeah, well, consoles don't seem to have a content problem! And they filter out bad games!" Yes, that's certainly true. However, they will also never have a case like Unturned. A case where a small, unassuming game that looked bad from the start went on to become one of the most popular games on the platform.
It's what I'm driving at. Only one small correction - the word I bolded, I'd change to "false". There is a content problem if not only do you not get good game, but you don't even know what you've been denied.

The seal of approval may as well disapprove of all games that start with the letter "V" or something completely arbitrary. You are never going to see them, therefore you would never know what they were or what they would have been.

Also, as it has been pointed out, the seal doesn't even protect you from all bad games. No, this isn't an invocation of Nirvana fallacy but reality - with or without it I'm going to have to take time to check if I'm going to buy a game anyway. Its approval doesn't really mean that much in the face of that.
 

Vigormortis

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DoPo said:
It's what I'm driving at. Only one small correction - the word I bolded, I'd change to "false". There is a content problem if not only do you not get good game, but you don't even know what you've been denied.

The seal of approval may as well disapprove of all games that start with the letter "V" or something completely arbitrary. You are never going to see them, therefore you would never know what they were or what they would have been.

Also, as it has been pointed out, the seal doesn't even protect you from all bad games. No, this isn't an invocation of Nirvana fallacy but reality - with or without it I'm going to have to take time to check if I'm going to buy a game anyway. Its approval doesn't really mean that much in the face of that.
A fair point. And yes, I should have said, "Yes, that's certainly true, most of the time." Seems more fitting, given the breadth of shovelware present on the Wii, Xbox, Playstation, etc.
 

ManutheBloodedge

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Excuse me? With the whole "no +18 sexual content" thing steam has going on, it is not depraved enough for my tastes.
Sure, Hatred is a-ok, but good old anime ass and titties is not? Gimme a break, America.

PS: And while you're at it, don't vote Trump, that would be swell.

Nazulu said:
They just need one guy to look out for pieces of shit like Digital Homicide (with their obviously broken asset flips) as well as scum holes like YOLO Army (who also obviously break the rules), and just delete and ban them.

Kill the big insects first I say.
YOLO Army? YOLO Army. Ok, forget it, that name is offense enough. PURGE AWAY!
 

ksn0va

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Bobular said:
I don't see the problem now we have refunds on Steam.

If a game is terrible don't buy it, if it tricked you into buying it get a refund. I think Steam is better having no restrictions and a refund policy that only having 'good' games as what one person thinks of as a terrible game someone else may think is game of the year.
OP isn't talking about games that are subjectively bad. There are a lot of games on Steam that are stolen, copy pasted a dozen times over, shipped without .exes, missing 90% of the content, contain copyrighted material.

Sure we haven't reached critical mass yet. But imagine in the future when 90% of the games on Steam are comprised of the examples listed above and the good ones get buried into oblivion.

Steam has to have a line somewhere.
 

CaitSeith

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DoPo said:
Don't change the focus. We were talking about how the seal of approval kept the game away from consoles; and the economic costs of publishing on a console is a different topic. Unless you have actual data, you're doing nothing but speculating here.
 

DoPo

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CaitSeith said:
DoPo said:
Don't change the focus. We were talking about how the seal of approval kept the game away from consoles;
No, you seem to want to discuss that. I engaged you in conversation about controlled market places. If you don't feel like talking about that then feel free to drop off.
 

CaitSeith

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DoPo said:
CaitSeith said:
DoPo said:
Don't change the focus. We were talking about how the seal of approval kept the game away from consoles;
No, you seem to want to discuss that. I engaged you in conversation about controlled market places. If you don't feel like talking about that then feel free to drop off.
That's not what your first comment stated. After the second one, your arguments moved from the original topic (seal of approval) to your red herring of a topic. Nope. You hijacked the thread, you drop off.
 

DoPo

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CaitSeith said:
DoPo said:
CaitSeith said:
DoPo said:
Don't change the focus. We were talking about how the seal of approval kept the game away from consoles;
No, you seem to want to discuss that. I engaged you in conversation about controlled market places. If you don't feel like talking about that then feel free to drop off.
That's not what your first comment stated. After the second one, your arguments moved from the original topic (seal of approval) to your red herring of a topic. Nope. You hijacked the thread, you drop off.
Can you put any game on any console and have that available to everybody without the seal of approval? Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought the answer was "no". And I thought the answer was "no" because the seal of approval was the "central control" in centrally controlled marketplace.

Let's examine what I said first, shall we:

In my first reply to you, I pointed out how a game I liked that exists in a non-centrally controlled marketplace doesn't exist in a centrally controlled marketplace. This showed how the central control does not give you all of the good games. I further mentioned a game I didn't like different game that also shared the same fate yet I expressed my feeling that despite that, I'd have it available to everybody, even though central control probably wouldn't. And then I contrasted it with a different game that I hate which the controlled marketplaces have nonetheless allowed.
 

Vigormortis

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CaitSeith said:
Unturned is an Early Access game. That's a different can of worms.
How so? How does that negate the point I made? How does that counter the claim that, had Steam implemented some sort of 'filter' system, it never would have made it onto Steam?

Seems an awful lot like you're moving the goal posts here.

But whatever. Let's roll with another example. How about Terraria? Or, maybe Broforce? Or Rust? Or Path of Exile? Or Trove? Or Stardew Valley?

I mean, I could go on, but I think I've made my point. These are games that, more likely than not, would NOT have made it through a 'filter system' similar to those employed by Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, etc. And yet, they made it through on Steam and became wildly popular and successful.

Can you explain to me how a 'filter system' would have helped these games? Can you explain why the consoles' filters allowed games like Ride to Hell, Aliens: CM, et al, to be sold on their systems?
 

Tanis

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I just always check user reviews, and just avoid digital homicide, they only make games to get money from the steam cards. So only useful to use those games to sell those cards at a profit(for games below 15~ cents) or level up(only during sales).

I don't see it as a big problem, just ignore the crap. Its easy.
 

CaitSeith

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Vigormortis said:
CaitSeith said:
Unturned is an Early Access game. That's a different can of worms.
How so? How does that negate the point I made? How does that counter the claim that, had Steam implemented some sort of 'filter' system, it never would have made it onto Steam?

Seems an awful lot like you're moving the goal posts here.

But whatever. Let's roll with another example. How about Terraria? Or, maybe Broforce? Or Rust? Or Path of Exile? Or Trove? Or Stardew Valley?

I mean, I could go on, but I think I've made my point. These are games that, more likely than not, would NOT have made it through a 'filter system' similar to those employed by Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, etc. And yet, they made it through on Steam and became wildly popular and successful.

Can you explain to me how a 'filter system' would have helped these games? Can you explain why the consoles' filters allowed games like Ride to Hell, Aliens: CM, et al, to be sold on their systems?
What makes you think that the filter system would NOT allow those games to be on Steam? What kind of criteria are you using? I don't see your point when there are console games less functional than any of those examples.

About Early Access, that's a big grey area. By definition it already discloses that the game isn't fully finished and all kind issues are to be expected. Trying to put a minimum standard for those would be much more difficult than for games that are labeled as full releases.
 

Vigormortis

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CaitSeith said:
What makes you think that the filter system would NOT allow those games to be on Steam?
That they released content light or in an unfinished state.

Besides, what makes you think they would make it through? With the hurdles of paying licensing fees, going through the "seal of approval" process, etc, I'm not sure how those devs could even afford to get their games released, let alone through the filters. Are there any examples of console games that match the cases of the games I've listed?

What kind of criteria are you using?
The same criteria people in this thread seem to be using. Unturned, for example, looks like just another UnitZ asset flip. And at time of release, it wasn't much more than that. Eventually it grew into something much more, but at the time it very likely wouldn't have made it past any sort of filtering system.

I don't see your point when there are console games less functional than any of those examples.
So then, what's the point of a filtering system at all if the garbage still gets through?

About Early Access, that's a big grey area. By definition it already discloses that the game isn't fully finished and all kind issues are to be expected. Trying to put a minimum standard for those would be much more difficult than for games that are labeled as full releases.
Yet, most of the complaints of "a deluge of shitty games on Steam" stem from the perception of shovelware coming in through Early Access or Greenlight. So, trying to separate Early Access from the discussion essentially discounts most of the complaints by default.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The point I'm trying to make here is this: I would rather a lack of any sort of filtering of content (save for addressing blatant scams, which Valve already does) than having some company dictate what games I should and shouldn't play.

I would rather have to take two minutes to filter out a hundred rubbish titles when searching for a new game on the Store than risk Valve deciding something like Terraria isn't worth my time or money.[footnote]I'd also like to add that I'm not relieving Valve of all guilt or responsibility here. I have my fair share of criticisms about the company and their wares, but a lack of a content filter on Steam is NOT one of them.[/footnote]
 

CaitSeith

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Vigormortis said:
I would rather have to take two minutes to filter out a hundred rubbish titles when searching for a new game on the Store than risk Valve deciding something like Terraria isn't worth my time or money.
Sorry, but that doesn't take two minutes. And Valve isn't addressing scams as efficiently as you think (not as long as the YOLO army operates). And "company dictating what games I should and shouldn't play" Really? That's what you think a store filtering system would be for? Sorry, but as the situation is currently on Steam, the possibilities of discovering the next Terraria amid all the garbage that gets poured in the store is near zero.
 

Fhqwhgod

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People complained when valvE was curating the store. Then they got what they wanted. Steam opened the floodgates and it has been the worst!