Poll: "Don't look at me when I wear skimpy clothes!"

[Spaloooooka]

i purposely wear mesh tees and chaps so people oggle me

 

[Hagi]

I personally don't watch much TV, and I probably don't have to tell you that it is not always an accurate representation of society, but I'll mention it anyway. The "risk" you mention was the point of my previous post. There is no "risk" in wearing a shirt that looks one way as opposed to another one. The risk comes from other people. Why wouldn't I compare it to rape, when the same excuses for it are used? Women will wear the clothes they want to wear, just like men, but women have to take the "risks" that come with it?

Because raping is a criminal and vile act. Staring is just rude.

It's like comparing bumping into someone because you want to get past them quickly with stabbing them in the gut if both times the offender had the same excuse.

And my entire point was that men also take this risk. If I go outside without a shirt and a low slung pair of jeans I will likely get stared at by some people (though likely not the same reason, but there's definitely guys around who would get stared at for the exact same reason).

And women should by all means wear the clothes they want to wear, just like men. But reality is that clothes affect they way you're treated in public. If I go out dressed like a 'gangster' then I have the risk of people treating me suspiciously and possibly avoiding me, no matter my actual personality. If I go out dressed skimpily people will likely stare at me. Such is life.

If you hate being stared at to the amount that you're going to flip out and slap people over it then the rational thing to do would be to avoid things which greatly increase the risk of being stared at.

Because, unlike say rape, you don't have a legal right not to be looked at, or even stared at as long as you don't explicitly tell them that it's bothering you.

 

[Takumashii]

Because raping is a criminal and vile act. Staring is just rude.

It's like comparing bumping into someone because you want to get past them quickly with stabbing them in the gut if both times the offender had the same excuse.

And my entire point was that men also take this risk. If I go outside without a shirt and a low slung pair of jeans I will likely get stared at by some people (though likely not the same reason, but there's definitely guys around who would get stared at for the exact same reason).

And women should by all means wear the clothes they want to wear, just like men. But reality is that clothes affect they way you're treated in public. If I go out dressed like a 'gangster' then I have the risk of people treating me suspiciously and possibly avoiding me, no matter my actual personality. If I go out dressed skimpily people will likely stare at me. Such is life.

If you hate being stared at to the amount that you're going to flip out and slap people over it then the rational thing to do would be to avoid things which greatly increase the risk of being stared at.

Because, unlike say rape, you don't have a legal right not to be looked at, or even stared at as long as you don't explicitly tell them that it's bothering you.

Men also taking the risk doesn't make it legitimate, it just means it's also a problem for men, and neither does the fact that it is "reality". If you just accept the way things are as unchangeable you will blame people when the fault lies with others. It's not wrong to recognize a wrongdoing when it happens.

 

[ph0b0s123]

Who the hell voted that looking at someone is sexual harassment. Please someone explain that one to me......

Also nearly 25% of people here think that looking at someone of the opposite sex, is perverted? Obviously the meaning of perv has changed a lot recently.

The only benefit of the doubt I will give to the girl is, that due to being at band practice they may have had to sit next to each other. And the guy was using the opportunity, with I assume his greater height to constantly look down the girls top. That deserves a comment from the girl.

 

[Smooth Operator]

But then again, should she be judged for what she wears?

Noone should be but everyone is judged by what they wear, simply how our mind works when trying to piece together who and what we are encountering.

If I walk down the street in a clown suit I'm gonna get strange looks and stares, now I can go bonkers and yell at everyone for judging me but that changes nothing, I cannot dictate societal behavior.
I can however ignore it or play along societies guidelines to get the desired effect, either way it's up to me.

 

[Hagi]

Men also taking the risk doesn't make it legitimate, it just means it's also a problem for men, and neither does the fact that it is "reality". If you just accept the way things are as unchangeable you will blame people when the fault lies with others. It's not wrong to recognize a wrongdoing when it happens.

By all means, complain about it and try to change it.

But don't blow up on someone over it, as in the OP. Two wrongs do not make a right.

There are socially acceptable ways of dealing with rudeness. Being just as rude or even ruder back at them is not one of them.

If you don't have the patience to deal with rudeness in such a way then don't do things that greatly increase the chance of people treating you rudely. If you're prone to blowing up when someone stares at you then don't wear skimpy clothing. Just because they were rude doesn't make it okay for you to be rude back. An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind.

 

[spartan231490]

My response in his situation would have been: "Don't put it in the window if it isn't for sale."

If you wear skimpy "slutty" clothing, you're going to get stared at. Deal with it.

 

[Brandon237]

I tend to make a habit of focusing on the eyes of the scantily-clad women I encounter. But that's only cause I want to be polite and respectful (and also cause I have a thing for eyes, but don't tell them), not because I'm obliged to do so. The day someone tells me where I can and cannot look is the day they can bend over backwards and shove their head up their arse.

This minus the thing for eyes, I try to be respectful, but I don't think it should be expected if you are dressed revealingly. It is your choice to go out like that, it is everyone else's choice as to how they look at you because of it. It would be pervy if she was decently dressed 'cause then the guy is just desperate, but as is... the has some serious nerve for calling him out on it dressed like that.

 

[Takumashii]

By all means, complain about it and try to change it.

But don't blow up on someone over it, as in the OP. Two wrongs do not make a right.

There are socially acceptable ways of dealing with rudeness. Being just as rude or even ruder back at them is not one of them.

If you don't have the patience to deal with rudeness in such a way then don't do things that greatly increase the chance of people treating you rudely. If you're prone to blowing up when someone stares at you then don't wear skimpy clothing. Just because they were rude doesn't make it okay for you to be rude back. An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind.

It's not wrong to disagree with the way people treat you. It is not up to the victim to decide if they want their rights to be restricted or to be under the scrutiny of others. I do sort of agree with you about patience, but it is not the victim's responsibility to have patience. With that sort of mindset, anyone who was discriminated against would be in the wrong to demand equality. If you're in the United States in the 50's and you're African American, would you be wrong to enter a restaurant and sit down when you know you'll be chased out and called names? It's not easy to change society, not a lot of people will like you, but it doesn't mean you give up and try to blend in.

 

[Takumashii]

That's a nice straw-man you've got there.Too bad I never implied, or stated that. She was looked at, not groped. Or would it please you to lump anything that involves sexuality and women into the category of rape?

If the gender roles were reversed, none of this would even be a problem. He didn't even do anything vile evil and wrong, he looked at her. No sexual harassment, he just looked at her.

I don't see the difference of being stared at, groped, or raped. I mean I see the obvious difference, but I don't see why one is ok and another is unacceptable, other than laws.

And why is my argument a straw-man, but yours is not? It doesn't matter what would happen in the reverse, what would happen in the reverse doesn't mean this didn't happen. The fact that it would be different in the reverse is proof that something is off.

Did you just compare the civil right movement to some woman getting looked at in a "rude way"?

I lol'd.

Yes, I did. There was a time that people fighting for civil rights were seen as just as ridiculous as women who are harassed today. And selfish for wanting to be seen as humans and not humans with extra stuff.

 

[TheScientificIssole]

It's not nice to stare and "she was wearing reveling cloths" is about as good of a defense for starring as it is for rape. You can control your own behavior even if someone is egging you on.

Bam! Rape has been compared to staring! Horribly scarring someone has been compared to being human! If I were to say that this is like saying that this excuse is just like saying the Jewish community was asking for the Holocaust. Your using a horrible thing nobody wants to think about and comparing it to natural human function. Its just unnecessary. Sorry for the rage.
OT: Doesn't matter its perception.

 

[LHZA]

To tell you the truth I don't think you've given us enough info to really make an informed decision on. You only became aware of the decision after she started to go off on the guy, who you said yourself is known for being a creep. Yes, in my opinion, it's okay to stare, even when a woman isn't dressed provocatively, just do so discretely. Maybe the guy wasn't being discrete enough, who knows, or maybe she was over reacting. Who know?

 

[Takumashii]

Because the world isn't black and white. It's better to be looked at than be groped. It's better to be groped than full on raped. Anyone trying to tell me that being looked at is the moral equivalent of rape will be met with me looking at them like a mental defective. When I look at someone, I don't strip them of their dignity and force them down and... you know.

This is like political correctness gone horribly, horribly awry. Being looked at isn't oppression. Being looked at isn't this. It isn't morally equivalent, and in my mind it's very wrong to compare the two.


It's like when PETA tried to compare a chicken farm to the holocaust. It's not the fucking same.

You might feel it is "better" to be stared at than to be raped, but it doesn't mean it's fine and dandy. I probably should've said that in my original post instead of just putting a comparison in there, but I was trying to give an example that most people would agree is unacceptable and point out how similar it is and how it is explained away for exactly the same reasons. I don't exactly mean it's the same, but it comes from the same thing, you know?

Certainly just staring at someone isn't oppression, but someone who feels they have the right to stare at someone's body in a setting where it normally doesn't happen is an oppressor. When you start assigning values to what is really horrible and what is technically not right but eh it's ok you end up with situations like the one in your spoiler. An injustice should not be accepted.

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

Okay, so I was at marching band this morning and this flute player started blowing up at the guy next to her because apparently, he was staring at her a bit too much. The thing was, though, that while everyone else followed dress code and wore a t-shirt and shorts, she decided to wear a side-less shirt and bra underneath with ridiculously short cut-offs.

Obviously, oggling at someone else extensively is disrespectful to them, but when you choose to wear revealing clothing, what exactly do you expect from people? I mean, if a guy walked around with his shirt off all day, it'd be because he wants women (and not just women he specifically likes) to notice his body; why is the opposite true for so many women?

To be fair, the staring guy has a reputation for being a huge creep, but if he'd been a regular stranger who was discrete about it and it's clear the girl is trying to show off as much skin as possible, is he allowed to oggle or no? Why or why not?

Oh, and yay for politically incorrect gender stereotyping!

I wanted to reply to all the wonderful points you made!

I personally love discussing gender so thank you for the opportunity! *ahem*

My first question is, was it hot that day? Cause if it was hot I think she was perfectly justified in wearing what she wore. (Although I suppose it is bad in breaking uniform)

Did you ever consider the idea that a woman might not wear 'revealing' clothing cause they want to be stared at, but simply cause it was hot and it's comfortable to wear loose clothing like that.

Unfortunately it's a really depressing and sad reality women live in where no matter what they wear they pretty much expect to be ogled by men everywhere. I know this because I've had this discussion with women. The majority that I talked to agree that they've literally worn sweaters and pants on hot summer days because they didn't want to risk being ogled, but were ogled anyway. It would be nice if we lived in a world where women weren't constantly objectified each and every day.

Now this is interesting. The point you make about a guy walking around with his shirt off all day. You have to understand the differences here. You make the assumption that the man takes off his shirt wanting everyone to see his body. There just isn't a stigma about the exposure of the male body. The way a male feels about his body and the way a woman feels about her body are two drastically different things. Men live in a society where they aren't raised to particularly care about what they look like, aside from wearing presentable in appropriate situations. (such as a business meeting or a formal party etc.) Women are raised with a magnifying glass constantly against their body. Men judge them, other women judge them, and even their family judges them. There is a constant of debate on what is okay and what isn't okay in terms of their physical appearance. A man can go to the beach, take his shirt off and feel nothing. A woman can go to the beach, wear a bikini and feel the stare of a thousand eyes. It isn't exactly always comfortable for a woman to be looked at by everyone, while a man will normally feel nothing.

Have you ever taken off your shirt and walked around in public expecting the stares of others? I can't help but feel when you imagine this scenario the man will simply be getting nice looks with an occasional compliment from women, and it'll feel great. This is far from the truth, if women were to behave as men. We did an experiment at school to let males experience the feeling of having all the different kinds looks and ...words said to him that a girl receives whenever she steps outside. It isn't fun. I hope to never, ever, ever experience this again. Ever. I felt like a piece of meat. If you are curious I can describe in more detail. Both how I felt and how the experiment worked, but I don't think it's really necessary as of right now.^^ Trust me on this one.

So in short, yes the guy was in the wrong. It doesn't matter what the girl was wearing because this sort of "blame the victim" mentality is what leads to reasoning is just as illogical as a criminal saying "Well it's not my fault I killed him, he should have been able to stop me." If she responded by saying "Don't look at me." she felt uncomfortable and is justified in having that feeling and asking the guy to stop.

Just because something is unfortunately accepted as a social norm doesn't mean it's okay, nor does it mean that it's the right thing to do.

P.S Glass Joe the Champ, if you'd like to have an even further in depth discussion about gender please, feel free to PM me or respond here with any questions/counterarguments you would like to bring up!

 

[iDoom46]

There's a big difference between looking and staring. You can't keep guys from looking at stuff they find attractive. That's just impossible, but staring is something you can control and very much preventable.