Glass Joe the Champ said:
AwkwardTurtle said:
Glass Joe the Champ said:
Snippity Snip
Hm, interesting viewpoint you've brought; I'd love to respond to it.
First, I'll say that while it was fairly hot that day, it wasn't too hot for a t-shirt and shorts and it was pretty clear she wore the outfit at least with the intention of appearing attractive, if not with the intention of attracting attention. She knew she would get yelled at by our directors (and did) for her outfit, and she wouldn't take that risk simply to be a bit cooler. You don't wear lingerie to school to stay cooled off, you just don't.
Secondly, the idea that women will be judged more based on their looks is really a self-fulfilling prophesy. While men can definitely judge women on their appearance, women are generally the ones who overemphasize the importance of looks for themselves and for each other. If a girl wears an outfit that doesn't match well or is tacky, she'll most likely get criticism from other girls, and from her own sense of fashion. In the same vein, a "metrosexual" man can care a lot about his appearance and be just as hurt when he walks outside and gets a reaction from people he doesn't want; it's all about personal mentality, and it can affect both genders.
Men will always judge a women on their body, as women will judge men (and they do; there's a clear difference between this guy [http://gulpdis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/hot-buff-guy-in-jeans.jpg] in women's eyes.) The only difference, as you say, is that men are raised not to care as much what people think about their appearance (but there are exceptions, see metrosexual guy up there). If women decided they didn't care about appearances and wanted to wear comfortable clothes and not wear makeup or anything like that, men would have to suck it up and deal with it. It's only because women perpetuate their own double-standards that men are culturally allowed to treat a woman like a product on display.
So again, if she didn't want people to treat her based on her appearance, she shouldn't have communicated that appearances were crucially important to her. No one was staring at the girls in t-shirts who just wanted to practice, and if those girls were getting attention, they would have a good mind not to care.
So now it's lingerie? I thought it was a sleeveless shirt? I've seen plenty of men and women wearing a sleeveless shirt and I wouldn't classify it as lingerie. How exactly do you KNOW what her intention was on wearing the sleeveless shirt? Did you ask her directly? Can you read minds now? (This part of the argument is completely invalidated on the off chance you did as her so I hope you didn?t! >:3)
How do you figure, that women are the ones that are judging women the most harshly? At the very least it's apparent that men are equal to women if not the more prominent judge. Like I said before, when I've talked to women on this issue, it's the thoughts and looks that men give that they think of the most when it comes to their appearance. Women aren't given the choice to 'not care' about their appearance. Just take a look at society as a whole, a woman's appearance is constantly being examined while a man's appearance is rarely examined by comparison. One example of this is sports, I can't tell you how many times I've seen an article on Yahoo! News about what some female athlete was wearing at some time for some reason. I've never seen an article on what male athletes are wearing. The way that society is set up women are constantly bombarded with images that emphasize the importance of their look while men aren't. ?Who wore it better?? Is that a phrase that sounds familiar? Now what gender do you automatically associate with that phrase? It's most likely women.
You've got to understand that not everything is really an individual choice. Saying that a 'metro sexual' man 'chooses' to care about his appearance seems inaccurate. It's just the style he ended up liking. It's not as if he could simply 'choose' to stop being metro sexual. That would be as unnatural as a gamer 'choosing' to stop playing games because other people feel that it's a bad thing to value.
In the case of women and their appearance they don't (not all of them, but I suppose some might make the conscious decision) 'choose' to be self-conscious of their appearance. This value is forced onto them by everyone. Think of a girl who would do as you say, and 'choose' to stop thinking about their looks completely. Then how would they decide what to wear? By the weather and how comfortable the clothes are, right? Clearly they can't do this without consequence based on the example you've given at the start of this thread. If she by chance decided that it was so hot for her that she wanted to wear a sleeveless shirt, she would HAVE TO BE OGLED. She has no choice in the matter. The reaction of men constantly affect how a girl dresses. If she wants to wear a sleeveless shirt since it's hot, but doesn't want to be ogled either what could she possibly do? She would have to make the choice of not wearing what's comfortable for her, or wearing it and face the stares of men who she doesn't feel comfortable around. Do you see how she's trapped and naturally forced to think about what she can and can't wear?
It isn't simply about personal mentality, that's seriously oversimplifying the issue. There are layers of social structure that influences the way men and women are told to think. I'm not even talking about insults men give to women. It's the looks and so called 'compliments' that men give to women that force them to be self-conscious. You know what guys I know call a girl who doesn't dress the way they think a girl should dress. They say she's ?so not feminine. It's unappealing.? Can you believe that? GUYS think they KNOW what it means to be FEMININE. I've heard plenty of sad stories of girls who were forced to learn the hard way that their appearance would always matter to the men of the world no matter what they themselves thought.
On the other hand women have no say in what men wear. Men have the gift of pretty much absolute freedom in terms of their body and their clothes. How many times has anyone told you that your clothes were out of style/fashion? How many times did people audibly gasp when you took your shirt off to go swimming? Sure I will admit that as time has progressed there has been a bit more examination in the appearance of men, but it's purely with a purpose of what looks good and doesn't. NOT what men are and are not allowed to wear.
If all the girls in the world magically and simultaneously stopped caring about their appearance, you know who would be the first ones to complain and try to restore the status quo? Every single heterosexual male on the planet. You say men would have to suck it up, no they wouldn't. They'd do damn near everything in their power (which is a lot) to change the opinions of women everywhere. All it would take would be one woman. Just one. Then men would once again have control over what women are and are not allowed to wear.
You need to put yourself in their shoes. Imagine if one day it was hot, and you decided to wear shorts, not even thinking about it. Then as you walked down the street strangers started yelling out at you "HEY BOY LOOK AT THOSE SEXY ASS LEGS!" "DAMN I WANNA GET ME SOME OF THAT!" among other things. Imagine if cause you were hot and wanted to wear shorts, when you started talking to your friend all they did was stare at your crotch, not your face. They just looked down and stared at your crotch. Would that be okay for you? Wouldn't you say something? Yeah I think you would. (Either that or you like having people stare at your crotch?) I think that if that's the reaction you got from people, you'd have to make the choice of wearing those shorts again and being comfortable or wearing something else so that you wouldn't have to go through that horrifying experience again. (Trust me I know it's horrifying)
Finally I have to ask once again, you KNOW for a fact that her purpose in wearing the clothes to COMMUNICATE that her appearance was CRUCIALLY important to her? You WATCHED EVERY single pair of eyes during band practice and made sure NO ONE was stealing looks, taking quick glances, or staring at ANY OTHER GIRL? I seriously doubt that those statements of yours are 100% guaranteed facts. I'm sure you think they're true, but they most likely are the absolute whole truth.
Now then, I hope you see the point I'm making. It's because of these reasons that I believe that no matter what a girl is wearing, objectifying her and staring or ogling or whatever you want to call it is sexual harassment and should not continue. If MEN were to stop caring how a woman dresses, only then can she be freed from the constraints that MEN have placed. I'm trying to make a point about the situation that happened in general. I, myself, can't say what the girl's motivation was for wearing what she wore. I don't read minds. All I want is for you (and others) to consider the possibility that a valid opinion and explanation different from yours exists. (Specifically my opinion and explanation xP)
I kind of went on a rant and I'm not sure if I addressed all of your points or not, but if it still doesn?t seem valid, please present more counterarguments or questions.
P.S Sorry about the enormous wall of text.