Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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thaluikhain said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
Feminism has a bad reputation because it is seen as being concerned with women's issues only.
I don't see why this is necessarily a bad thing anyway.
I have participated in discussions with people that identify as feminists and people that don't identify as feminists about the subject of feminism itself. I feel there's a lot of miscommunication going on. The stereotypes of feminism are based on the more obnoxious feminists who espouse misandrist beliefs and a heavily skewed perception of gender inequality in the West, where men and masculinity are seen as something to oppose rather than simply the other 50% of society.

Now I know for a fact that most feminists aren't like that, but the best way to get rid of these stereotypes would be discussion. More consideration for men's issues like Emma Watson mentioned in her speech would help. MRAs have a much worse reputation than feminists, less of a voice and much more contradictory and problematic views. So when it comes to gender activism, feminism is the most credible avenue. The fact that many MRAs and feminists feel their respective movements are directly in opposition really doesn't help either.
 

Grahav

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manic_depressive13 said:
Grahav said:
Being rich, successfull, strong, confident are expected for men being considered a catch. These demands are not the same for the inverse. There is no equality in the rules of attraction for the sexes.

It is restrictive, but as you said, it is what it is.
That's just absurd. Celebrities almost exclusively date other celebrities because those are the people who are in their social circle and sympathetic to their lifestyle. So by default her partners are going to be rich, successful and confident. It's the same for male celebrities. And strong? So he happens to be an athlete, big deal. Would it change anything if he were another actor?

You're just trying to sell the narrative that women are attracted to money and power. Well guess what, Watson already has that, so it's a bit hard to buy.


Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/pew-low-marriage-rates_n_5878662.html

Below is basically my opinion on the overall subject.

https://time.com/3432838/emma-watson-feminism-men-women/
 

Thaluikhain

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DizzyChuggernaut said:
The fact that many MRAs and feminists feel their respective movements are directly in opposition really doesn't help either.
Well, in that the MRM started as a reactionary backlash against feminism, they are correct about that.
 

Areani

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Why should I care about the opinions of a mudblood? Talk about gender roles all you want, men and women will never be "equal". And this isn't about social constructs, it's about biology.
 

Netrigan

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thaluikhain said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
The fact that many MRAs and feminists feel their respective movements are directly in opposition really doesn't help either.
Well, in that the MRM started as a reactionary backlash against feminism, they are correct about that.
Years back a creepy friend of mine gave me a copy of "Why Men Are The Way They Are" from the guy who pretty much kicked off the Men's Rights Movement.

Lots of good stuff in there about the way men are indoctrinated into a system that exploits them... then it kind of loses its way by placing too much of the blame at women's feet. Old rich men are sending us off to war, not women. Old rich businessmen are the ones selling us over-inflated diamonds we can't afford as proof of love.. not women.

He didn't learn from the excesses and mistakes of the feminist movement, he emulated them, directing those same mistakes and excesses at women... and the movement has only gotten worse since then.
 

Thaluikhain

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Netrigan said:
He didn't learn from the excesses and mistakes of the feminist movement, he emulated them, directing those same mistakes and excesses at women... and the movement has only gotten worse since then.
If he sold lots of books because of it, I'd not necessarily say he's not learnt anything.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Dec 11, 2009
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For me, it's just on a personal level, I have high expectations, as I am tall, have a low voice and a figure that with enough work, I could turn into Gregor Clegane, or at the very least, Sandor.

I am expected to chase after women constantly at this age, and to dedicate my time to working out, sports, or partying. I barely do any of that. I don't feel that I am in a position in which to pursue a relationship, because I want it to be meaningful, and current conditions do not allow for that to happen.

I do work out from time to time, because I see the value in staying in shape and getting out of procrastination as a habit. The only sport to grab me is basketball... but the closest court is unsafe unless I go with a large group of friends, and to organise that many people to play a sport that is overshadowed by football in this country, means that it can only happen once in a blue moon. Even if I try, trying to keep that many plates spinning is always troublesome, as someone always inevitably fucks up somewhere.

As for partying... I'm not much of a party person. I give the first impression of being rude, and I choose not to go to any anyway. I am introverted, and I hope to work on that, but partying doesn't draw me in. Especially at this point of life, parties usually resort to people getting drunk then having sex with their respective partners...which I don't have.

It is a bit restricting that I am expected to act like this, but I choose to adopt my own ideal. Being a man, to me, means handling responsibility, to get things done, to lead the charge and hold position. It means to perservere, and to live life happily, to chase ambition and realise it, not putting it off to 'someday'.

On the subject of feminism being man-hating...

I don't buy it. I proudly identify myself as an egalitarian/humanist. Feminism is a means to an end, to true equality for all, and that's what I believe it is at its' core. Yes, there are a few bad apples that give it a bad name, and there are people who are too eager to attack the entire movement out of fear or insecurity, but I tell every single person off in my school when they say that "feminism=hating men".

What I feel the movement needs is a powerful voice to address both sides, a rallying cry to end this ceaseless madness on the internet.
 

Trippy Turtle

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I tend to ignore roles/expectations etc when it suits me. So I voted no.
If I was the type that wanted to show emotion to others, I'd have friends that would accept that. Doesn't really matter what society thinks. Its the people you are actually close to that count.
As it is. I hate being emotional in front of others and have no fucking clue what to do when others start sharing their deepest sorrows with me. So, being a man, this whole gender role rather suits me from that perspective. I'm simply too manly for emotions.

As for the speech, as far as speeches on this topic go I think it was fairly good.
 

Thaluikhain

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Trippy Turtle said:
Doesn't really matter what society thinks. Its the people you are actually close to that count.
Well...what do you mean by "close to"?

I mean, what your work colleagues (for example) think of you can be very important.
 

spoonybard.hahs

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Here Comes Tomorrow said:
It depends on the issue really.


My girlfriend is a feminist, but recognizes the need for gender roles, because if shes having a bad day, if I let her mood ruinine we'd just ***** and moan at each other and then the dogs wouldn't get walked. And if the dogs don't get walked then they shit and piss all over the house, then we're in a bad mood and there's shit and piss all over everything.

And that is an apt metaphore for the whole situation. Someone has to suck it up and get on with things, or it'll all get covered in shit. And piss.
That's not a definition of a gender role. That's what well-adjusted grown-ups should be doing. You don't need to be masculine or feminine to be supportive or comforting or empathetic.
 

Trippy Turtle

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thaluikhain said:
Trippy Turtle said:
Doesn't really matter what society thinks. Its the people you are actually close to that count.
Well...what do you mean by "close to"?

I mean, what your work colleagues (for example) think of you can be very important.
I see what you mean, but at the same time I feel like I wouldn't want to work somewhere with people I wasn't close to as at least sort-of friends. If they can't accept a co worker for not conforming to a gender role though, I feel like they would be more likely to be judged for mentioning it than you are for not conforming.

If you were asking out of context of the thread though, I guess as long as you aren't losing your job over it then it doesn't matter what they think of it either. If you were losing your job over being honest about yourself either A: You don't want a job there anyway or B: The job is important enough to you that you are willing to just act 'normal' for them at work.
 

Kathinka

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Jan 17, 2010
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while there certainly is some equality issues that need addressing, i think it's dumb to strife for total conformity and euality in every aspect of life. girls are different from them boys, that's just how it is. to an extend, gender rules reflect those differences. that's why, even though i'm a girl that wants equal treatment, pay and so on for both genders, i hesitate to identify with feminisim.
 

CFriis87

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Sigmund Av Volsung said:
What I feel the movement needs is a powerful voice to address both sides, a rallying cry to end this ceaseless madness on the internet.
They have one, she's called Christina Hoff Sommers and she's generally labeled an anti-feminist conservatard by the rest of the feminist movement, so it doesn't really seem like the movement is very interested in having a strong voice addressing both sides.
Look her up on YouTube, she has her own channel called the Factual Feminist.
 

CFriis87

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thaluikhain said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
The fact that many MRAs and feminists feel their respective movements are directly in opposition really doesn't help either.
Well, in that the MRM started as a reactionary backlash against feminism, they are correct about that.
Actually, the MRM started out as a sort of ally to feminism, lobbying for the sexual liberation of men while feminism lobbied for the sexual liberation of women.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Warren_Farrell_leads_a_group_of_men_protesting,_1972.jpg
Here you see them protesting objectification of men in 1972 as an offshoot from feminism, led by the man who was also the president of the National Organisation for Women.

There are a number of reasons the MRM as it is now is firmly against feminism, most of which you can rea, along with sources, in this post of mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861411-Poll-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality?page=7#21443114
 

manic_depressive13

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Grahav said:
That's quite a leap between "rich and successful" and "has a job". Could that be because perhaps women are less likely to be able to support a family on their income alone? Plus I don't see where it says that men wouldn't prefer a fit partner.

Edit: Oh look beaten to the punch.
 

MisterM2402

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Ryotknife said:
hmm, personally its not confining but a minor annoyance, at least nowadays. For example, i enjoy cooking. Cant tell you how many "you would make an excellent wife one day" comments i get.
That's so weird, considering how many male TV chefs there are. Have they never heard of Gordon Ramsay?
 

giles

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MisterM2402 said:
Ryotknife said:
hmm, personally its not confining but a minor annoyance, at least nowadays. For example, i enjoy cooking. Cant tell you how many "you would make an excellent wife one day" comments i get.
That's so weird, considering how many male TV chefs there are. Have they never heard of Gordon Ramsay?
I get comments about my cooking too, but they are generally supportive. The worst I've got come from more distant parts of my family along the lines of "that's just how it is these days" and that's about it. I'm the one who then jokes about becoming a good housewife. Why would I be annoyed at them? It's not like I'm super insecure about spontaneously growing a vagina or something.
Cmon grow a spine and own up to your hobby ;)

I don't think the male stereotype is confining to me. I'm grown up enough to pick and choose which ideals I want for myself and I can actually sympathize with the quest for independence and self-improvement that's tied to the male stereotype. Basically, everytime I find this thread on the front page I have this song play in my head and have to find it on youtube (seriously)

♫ We must be swift as the coursing river ♫
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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CFriis87 said:
There are a number of reasons the MRM as it is now is firmly against feminism, most of which you can rea, along with sources, in this post of mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.861411-Poll-Emma-Watsons-Speech-on-Gender-Equality?page=7#21443114
I do admire the depth of the cherry picking there.